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Old 06-27-2015, 12:02 PM   #1901
ArtyMcFly
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJuliusDhelas View Post
In business u either grow or die.
Correct.



[x] Was growing.
[x] Now dying.
[ ] Acting like it's still 2010 is a good option for Pokerstars.
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Old 06-27-2015, 01:09 PM   #1902
MrJuliusDhelas
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
Correct.



[x] Was growing.
[x] Now dying.
[ ] Acting like it's still 2010 is a good option for Pokerstars.

That doesnt mean anything do u actually know pokerstar profit per year since it started ?

Do u know what that graph is about ?

Do u consider the closing of markets like USA , Spain + others

Do u consider that looking at a graph by itself without knowing detailed information is useless ?

Do u know that a profit graph might go down because the Company started payn taxes in regulated countries + increased theyr advertisment + other invesments

Do u know Pokerstars bought Full tilt ?

Do u know how many millions that has cost and the impact on interest ?

Do u know a graph can go donw at 50% angle but without regs + rake it would go down 75% angle ?

I could go on
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Old 06-27-2015, 06:49 PM   #1903
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by LektorAJ View Post
^ I'm not that old, but in the mid 90s (and possibly now) if you studied maths long enough you eventually got outside the capabilities of a typical scientific calculator - so we had paper tables with poisson and normal distributions etc.
I graduated in maths in 2003 and haven't needed to use a scientific calculator in my life
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Old 06-27-2015, 07:31 PM   #1904
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
Correct.



[x] Was growing.
[x] Now dying.
[ ] Acting like it's still 2010 is a good option for Pokerstars.
If you take out the US, it's not dying - but it's not growing either.
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Old 06-27-2015, 07:35 PM   #1905
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Chuck Bass View Post

I enjoyed talking to most people from Stars and all their different departments, most of them also seemed very open for criticism and new ideas. The only department that entirely shunned me was the security department, they just basically denied everything despite damning evidence of millions and millions being taken away from the poker comminity annually to the deep pockets of the few rich cheaters who organize these things. It's one thing that they can't keep up with the pace of rich cyber-cheaters, I can understand that. But their attitude, that they literally did not give two ****s about it and refused to even listen, that was something I'll always remember.

"No, this doesn't happen on our site, you are WRONG".
"Come on man just LOOK AT THIS"
"You are wrong"
I hope at the end of this review, the security department become more accountable about finding REAL collusion, multi accounting and bots

Last edited by pies01; 06-27-2015 at 07:46 PM.
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Old 06-27-2015, 08:10 PM   #1906
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by skier_5 View Post
Again, what part of what you described fits the definition for a bot? How does the comprehensiveness of a chart take it from a chart to a bot? Toy game or not, many people use the nash charts while they play. Can you explain how me adding limp 0% and raise to every number of blinds as 0% to the nash chart I posted turns it into a bot?

It's different because it's not automated. What you described is a set of charts (apart from your 72o, which does enter bot territory - why is it ok to autofold 72o but not 3bet xx with the frequencies i decide?).
The problem is you pass the poker equivalent of the Turing Test. It is impossible to tell from your play if you are a Bot or a Human because your pre-flop decisions are completely described by your charts. That is why it is tantamount to a Bot. The actual mouseclick does not change your poker decisions, it adds no value beyond your charts (pre-flop).

You have put the cat amongst the pigeons because what you have done could about as easily be done with a physical ring binder of paper charts which of course cannot be enforceably banned. As such I can't see how your software can be banned under current rules but at the same time you and others have to agree that if you simply click the buttons and have no decisions to make apart from read your chart then it is tantamount to a Bot, too. If you were replaced with a Bot there would be no observable difference in the pre-flop play.

The real problem is that the pre-flop game for HUSNGs has been close to solved. When seen through this lens Pre-flop Bots are a red herring. That's my point about an auto-folder of 72o that has no capability to figure out and click complex 3 Bet frequencies. It is not the autoclicking that is the issue it is the complexity of the decisions being automated whether a human does the clicking or a Bot.

As an aside there is IMO a legitimate reason for being allowed to auto-click simple decisions such as fold 72o (but not auto-click complex decisions like 3Bs): allowing the disabled (crippling case of RSI for example) to play poker. What is wrong with someone with RSI from autofolding the ~80% of the time at a 6-max cash table for example they would have folded anyway if otherwise they cannot play at all due to their disability. Disallowing their autofolder is discrimination against the disabled.

Last edited by TimTamBiscuit; 06-27-2015 at 08:16 PM.
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Old 06-27-2015, 08:50 PM   #1907
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Skier
Where would you suggest Pokerstars draw the line with HUDs?

Should it be acceptable to have complex stats such as Fold vs River Bet (after calling a flop X/R and calling a Turn bet)? Where should Pokerstars logically draw the line on complexity?

Should it be acceptable to have VPIP/PFR by stack size in HUSNGs?
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Old 06-27-2015, 08:51 PM   #1908
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Steve said he'd be back in 10 days.
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Old 06-27-2015, 11:24 PM   #1909
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Skier
Your charts sound as if they are more elaborate and complete versions of the ROFL (Raise, OpenShove, Fold or Limp) popup charts that most regs have on their HUSNG HUDs.

View Free HEM HUD from HUSNG.COM that includes ROFL chart

It is difficult to find the appropriate legal/illegal line for Pokerstars. All this can be done manually but is also indistinguishable from pre-flop Bot play.
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Old 06-28-2015, 01:58 AM   #1910
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

What about SpinWiz. Is it legal ?
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Old 06-28-2015, 02:08 AM   #1911
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimTamBiscuit View Post
You have put the cat amongst the pigeons because what you have done could about as easily be done with a physical ring binder of paper charts which of course cannot be enforceably banned.
My understanding is that skiers charts contain more info than could practically be looked up in a ring binder during play. That's why the OP suggests a rule about charts and HUDs that go beyond a basic level.

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Originally Posted by Pirate9999 View Post
What about SpinWiz. Is it legal ?
Currently it is allowed by PS, but strong arguments have been made against it ITT including that it may be illegal under UK gaming law, so it may not be allowed for ever.
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Old 06-28-2015, 06:35 AM   #1912
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Tbh I haven't seen too many ideas ITT for stars to deal with this new generation of software aid that skier made. Fwiw not many ppl were using preflop charts to that extent in husng, but there might be ppl doing that now. It's still a difficult decision for stars, and a difficult line to draw.

As regarding other topics brought up, I'm pretty sure stars has just ignored everything. They made their decisions a long time ago on those.
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Old 06-28-2015, 08:56 AM   #1913
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimTamBiscuit View Post
The problem is you pass the poker equivalent of the Turing Test. It is impossible to tell from your play if you are a Bot or a Human because your pre-flop decisions are completely described by your charts. That is why it is tantamount to a Bot. The actual mouseclick does not change your poker decisions, it adds no value beyond your charts (pre-flop).

You have put the cat amongst the pigeons because what you have done could about as easily be done with a physical ring binder of paper charts which of course cannot be enforceably banned. As such I can't see how your software can be banned under current rules but at the same time you and others have to agree that if you simply click the buttons and have no decisions to make apart from read your chart then it is tantamount to a Bot, too. If you were replaced with a Bot there would be no observable difference in the pre-flop play.

The real problem is that the pre-flop game for HUSNGs has been close to solved. When seen through this lens Pre-flop Bots are a red herring. That's my point about an auto-folder of 72o that has no capability to figure out and click complex 3 Bet frequencies. It is not the autoclicking that is the issue it is the complexity of the decisions being automated whether a human does the clicking or a Bot.

As an aside there is IMO a legitimate reason for being allowed to auto-click simple decisions such as fold 72o (but not auto-click complex decisions like 3Bs): allowing the disabled (crippling case of RSI for example) to play poker. What is wrong with someone with RSI from autofolding the ~80% of the time at a 6-max cash table for example they would have folded anyway if otherwise they cannot play at all due to their disability. Disallowing their autofolder is discrimination against the disabled.
I don't think the Turing test is an appropriate yardstick for poker. How can you really tell if it's a computer or a human behind a a series o poker actions? What is the human 'fingerprint' of playing poker? It's also not a proper Turing test if the human and the computer are working off of the same script. How can you measure if a computer is indistinguishable from a human when the human chooses to actively follow the same logic as the computer is programmed to use? You've turned the test on its side and are testing whether a human can mimic a computer, rather than testing whether a computer can appear like a human.

A bot is a very specific definition which a bunch of charts don't fit. Every definition I can find of a bot includes 'automated' which charts are simply not. A description, no matter how detailed, of a strategy for a given game is not a bot. I can say that I will use {Raise AA, call anything that is not 92o,82o,72o, and fold the rest at every decision point} as my preflop strategy which completely describes my preflop decisions and could lead to a computer replicating my play, but could never be considered a bot.

I think that the autoclicking is problematic because it's a slippery slope. Are you going to be making judgement calls on what is and is not allowed to be automated? There are so many decisions (and so much clicking) in poker that I think that removing the subset of what you call 'obvious' decisions isn't going to help someone with RSI very much anyways. They should really look into alternative input devices. Voice control, switching hands, gamepads, ipads, etc. I even read about one designer who used her nose to do work with! Where are you going to draw the line? Can I automate all of my push/fold decisions now since i would have push/folded anyways?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimTamBiscuit View Post
Skier
Where would you suggest Pokerstars draw the line with HUDs?

Should it be acceptable to have complex stats such as Fold vs River Bet (after calling a flop X/R and calling a Turn bet)? Where should Pokerstars logically draw the line on complexity?

Should it be acceptable to have VPIP/PFR by stack size in HUSNGs?
Honestly I think that limiting HUDs is also problematic. You land in second computer/printed on paper/automatically inserted into the client notes land pretty quickly. I haven't thought about where I would draw the line, but I would say banning it completely is likely too far as people will write tools to place stats into their notes, etc and that may leave the honest players at too much of a disadvantage. That being said, I don't think making the rule about HUDs is the way to go. I think the better solution is to limit the amount of information one can gather on someone by stopping data mining and allowing screen name changes. If you make the name changes frequent enough you can even prevent issues with database sharing (apart from population tendencies, unfortunately. Though you may be able to make them less effective if players are more difficult to categorise and place in the 'right' population) and a lot of these complex stats will never have the sample size required to make them useful. If you can only get an average of 500 or 1000 hands on someone then something like VPIP/PFR by stack size will not be too useful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimTamBiscuit View Post
Skier
Your charts sound as if they are more elaborate and complete versions of the ROFL (Raise, OpenShove, Fold or Limp) popup charts that most regs have on their HUSNG HUDs.

View Free HEM HUD from HUSNG.COM that includes ROFL chart

It is difficult to find the appropriate legal/illegal line for Pokerstars. All this can be done manually but is also indistinguishable from pre-flop Bot play.
I don't know where stars should draw the line here. I do agree that allowing static content as things are now is problematic and full of loopholes, but as you said, banning a binder full of charts is problematic as well. I've maintained that since it's so unenforceable, it's important to make a balanced decision on what is and is not acceptable so that the honest people are not getting free rolled. There are also much bigger issues to fry (bots, collusion, etc) than policing the entire playing population to make sure they are not using 2 sheets of paper as reference material. Something like a binder full of charts or charts which you could realistically plaster on your wall/desk (and still use) seems like decently balanced place to draw the line. I don't think the test of "All this can be done manually but is also indistinguishable from pre-flop Bot play." is a good one. The fact that {Raise AA, call anything that is not 92o,82o,72o, and fold the rest at every decision point} fails it is very problematic.
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Old 06-28-2015, 09:26 AM   #1914
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I admire your patiente really

Those kinds of things are so obvious , like if all is banned people wont have still ways of datamining , having a sec computer on and building a program that allows for fast search of opponnents

I wrote this 2 weeks ago , problem is these kinds of things will give an even bigger edge than today and most dont get this
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Old 06-28-2015, 11:57 AM   #1915
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Hard line to draw for Stars. Wherever they draw the line it can't be effectively enforced in the current situation.
They will probably play it safe now and just limit some small NC functionality and some similarly lines for skier like programs.

However in the longer run the software will get better and better and they will likely have to stop providing the HHs in real time and stop screen scraping as well. And maybe provide HHs after 24 hours for offline analysis but not allow anything during play.
I don't necessarily agree with that but I just don't see any other way around it, give HHs in real time and allow screen scraping = software can be made that is undetectable.
The reason for that is simply that they would leave too much room for abuse, it's not because live play doesn't allow programs and all that BS.
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Old 06-28-2015, 12:04 PM   #1916
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

they don't need to do anything different. They need to start reviewing high volume players and winners with high winrates..
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Old 06-28-2015, 12:38 PM   #1917
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I think that ultimately the decision on what should and should not be allowed should come down to the effect it has.

If people made bots that limped 90% of hands and check called all draws/ check folded if missed flop, I doubt anyone would care about them. In fact I think many in the poker community would welcome that bot.

If however someone made more sophisticated bot that was based on numerous calculations to know unExploitable game. such as the heads up holdem bot then this would be a major problem.

It would not matter if such a bot never did the action but only recommended the action, the fact is once such a thing is made you could even train different species to follow the instructions and beat the best of us. This would mean that anyone could download the bot or adviser and the only people that would be able to win would be people playing with this software.

It would effectively kill all the games. whilst one could in theory make a full binder of perfect shove fold hands the fact is it would have way to many pages and different spots to be able to fully utilize in play.

but assuming for the sake of argument that one could use the binder in just the same way at least thats harder to spread people either having to print and assemble there own or have mailed to them is much harder to spread then just downloading software.

people could build a data base/ bot on a second computer this is true, However less people will be able to afford or go to trouble of second computer, although some still could.

However further once its established that is against the rules stars could analyse play to see who has likely been using these software bits, and respond accordingly in the same way that they can spot collusion etc.
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Old 06-28-2015, 09:00 PM   #1918
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by MrJuliusDhelas View Post
I wrote this 2 weeks ago
I doubt Pokerstars cares what you wrote 2 weeks ago.
After all, they didn't care when a world champion wrote this 2 years ago:


Game Integrity? LOL integrity.

A rising tide lifts all bots.
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Old 06-28-2015, 09:37 PM   #1919
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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people could build a data base/ bot on a second computer this is true, However less people will be able to afford or go to trouble of second computer, although some still could.
Every unscrupulous cheater would invest in an extra computer if they were to win by cheating much more than that.

I am not a cheater but I (and the wife) have a combined 7 computers for different purposes now. I imagine many families have lots of computers lying around.
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Old 06-29-2015, 02:23 PM   #1920
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Notecaddy is just ridic lately, timing tells, ranges graphs based on everything, insta hand history on how the current hand is going. Banhammer that stuff indeed. And ofcourse all the god seat scripts.
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Old 06-29-2015, 03:05 PM   #1921
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Notecaddy is just ridic lately, timing tells, ranges graphs based on everything, insta hand history on how the current hand is going. Banhammer that stuff indeed. And ofcourse all the god seat scripts.
Can you explain what this is?
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Old 06-29-2015, 03:57 PM   #1922
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Notecaddy is just ridic lately, timing tells, ranges graphs based on everything, insta hand history on how the current hand is going. Banhammer that stuff indeed. And ofcourse all the god seat scripts
They just suck less at what they are doing. The rules are based on "hopefully they won't be software good enough" mentality or just on ignorance on what is possible to make within given set of rules. NC guys read the rules and made good software. Don't hate the player, hate the game...

You either ban game state reading during the game or you will have NC like functionality (and way more in the future). Pick one.
I like banning it (as I think it was ridiculous to allow any HUDs in the first place) but current rules aren't that bad. It's a somewhat fair technology war which offer even playing field and doesn't promote people with will/resources to walk around the rules. That's one way to shape the game. It's certainly better than "static HUDs" only or similar proposals based on wishful thinking about how computers work.

Last edited by punter11235; 06-29-2015 at 04:02 PM.
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Old 06-29-2015, 04:56 PM   #1923
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I think every single post you make should start with a fair disclaimer - "I'm a software poker developer & seller". This way people could see a bit more clearly through your transparent (and almost grotesque) reasoning.

Countering some sort of forced stop on live play aids with that lame argument (that you used about 4 or 5 times already) is simply showing your limits and your bias. The rules are not based on "let's allow it if it sucks enough", like you so "cleverly" put it, but on a simple principle of not letting the game slip away completely and turning it into something else. Which will happen soon, for sure, if nothing is done.

Biased reasoning. Lame argument. Pathetic conclusion. But please, keep "solving poker", since that's what your aiming for, right? And your next generation of poker solving software will help us "solve it" live at the table, too. Cause you like the way the rules are set up now.
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Old 06-29-2015, 04:56 PM   #1924
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Pokerpingu View Post
Notecaddy is just ridic lately, timing tells, ranges graphs based on everything, insta hand history on how the current hand is going. Banhammer that stuff indeed. And ofcourse all the god seat scripts.
Oh god yes. It's redic
BAN NOTECADDY PLZ
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Old 06-29-2015, 05:01 PM   #1925
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Can you explain what this is?
I'm not aware of NC providing info of a hand that is in progress, but it can pull up 'instant' hand histories that fit a particular definition.
e.g. For my "4b range" badge, I can click and see the details (or a full replay) of the last 5 hands in which a particular villain 4-bet pre.
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