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Old 06-26-2015, 03:01 PM   #1876
The Imp
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

It's trivial to ban scripts/cartels if Stars wanted to.

Change the ToS, make the punishment severe enough to be a deterrent (lifetime ban/funds forfeited). Yes, you'd still get the odd player that took a (large) risk to gain an advantage over the field but the vast majority would play fair.

Stars seem reluctant to take any action which results in more work for themselves but as the online game evolves their ToS and enforcement of those ToS has to evolve at the same time.
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Old 06-26-2015, 03:57 PM   #1877
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I see some quite naive ideas

Stars needs profit to grow

U NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE 374 SNE Players raked the same amount has

10000 recs ? 35 000 recs ? (ofc this depends on limit etc )



I would assume some breakeven (not sne ) regs are goldmines to stars
they generate probably the same rake 100 or 150 recs players in theyr limit


U cannot be naive and think a company ONLY has to care about 1 side of his customers
they know some changes will mean INSTANT redution of profit that might OR NOT work out in the future

Theres no guarantee the changes (some of them ofc) are actually going to work
u have opinions but are u putting your money and saiyn here i bet 5000 euros this will work im sure it will...ofc not u dont know





Its important to be balanced , i see complete illogical comments , they dont understand the most of the software has nothing to do with the problems mentioned

we have colluding for about 6 years

we have datamining for about the same

bots same

poker schoools same



Its just so weird some people dont see this is so simple the most funny part is that some think they will actually make more money with some changes well i guess u are in for a big surprise

In the digital world u cannot stop anything u can just make things go underground
people will adapt , create snew ideas and it will be worst because now u can buy and use the same softw as its authorized , after u cant use what u dont know
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Old 06-26-2015, 04:18 PM   #1878
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJuliusDhelas View Post
I see some quite naive ideas

Stars needs profit to grow

U NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE 374 SNE Players raked the same amount has

10000 recs ? 35 000 recs ? (ofc this depends on limit etc )



I would assume some breakeven (not sne ) regs are goldmines to stars
they generate probably the same rake 100 or 150 recs players in theyr limit
Speaking of naive, you don't seem to understand where the money that gets raked comes from.

It comes from depositing recs not breakeven SNE's who never deposit.
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Old 06-26-2015, 04:54 PM   #1879
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

stop reading his nonsense. He does not even understand that rake paid for SNE's = money going back to SNE and rake paid by lower tier's = more % of rake into pokerstars pocket.

High rakeback deals/earners is not good for the site nor the regs. The best sites have the lowest rakeback.
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Old 06-26-2015, 05:25 PM   #1880
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by MX210 View Post
funny enough, since i outed one of the HUD advocate that uses the timebank program, he hasnt been back in the thread.

FR-NIT has also reverted back to his commercial thread:
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/16...cial-software/

I made sure to keep all the screenshots where he admits to datamining
I really hope pokerstars takes a very close look at this particular post, FR-NIT has been in this thread, attacking people, and sticking up for notecaddy, all the while he has been illegally datamining hands and clearly breaking the t&s of pokerstars. It's clear that he stopped posting itt when he was called out my mx for illagally datamining hands.
Pokerstars steve please address mx210 posts regarding fr-nit when you pop back into this thread, thank you
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Old 06-26-2015, 06:15 PM   #1881
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

MrJulius, you are not only hopelessly short sighted, but simply clueless.
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Old 06-26-2015, 07:00 PM   #1882
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars - Addition

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Originally Posted by ihatewonderbras View Post
Would be cool, if pokerstars-steve add this to the suggestions.
I ve choosen this way, because we dont have an official statement by pokerstars about scripts in general.


So, due to your attitude as a smart, long-term-thinking company having a longterm-balanced-ecology,

u have to
- stop/offer own/forbid betting- and seating-scripts or/and
- decrease the reacting-time for multitable-players (who plays more than x tables at the same time) and
- limit the waiting-list-seats from actual ... to max. 3-4 players
- and each player is only able to take a seat on 4 waiting-lists at the same time
- and maybe - is only able to join a waitinglist 4 times in 30/60 minutes.

- revolutionize the hu-game, so that they will get more action.
e.g. table-opener is able to set the details for the table, e.g. at least played number of hands to leave a table, buy-out etc. the limit of the table will set by offered number of tables each limit automatically.
every player will get 3 "jokers" connection-losts will be "punished" with one of them
if u dont have one.. or u r too long at sitout or connection-lost (to use a leak),
u will be removed from the table and lose 0,3-1 stack.
so every bumhunter and leakbuster wont hoax other players anymore,
conclusion = no bumhunting anymore, more games, because every player/opener have to play
every other player who joins his table by clicking and accepting his "game-rules"



Scripts at all are bad, because u r able to act/react faster than a normal human is able to.

So your saying we should reward table openers ready to take on all-comers and drive weak bumhunters out. That sounds like HUSNGs.
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Old 06-26-2015, 08:25 PM   #1883
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Pokerstars, please at first get rid of sitting scripts, then think about softwares
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Old 06-26-2015, 09:31 PM   #1884
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by skier_5 View Post
The difference between preflop charts and bots is night and day. There is a ton of postflop play down to the smallest stack sizes (and these stack sizes are a small fraction of hands played). If you hopped into a husng and played using nash/push fold or even my preflop charts you would get absolutely crushed unless you had the corresponding (significant) postflop skill required to win at these games. You cannot win (or get close to it) at husng or shortstack hu with a set of preflop charts.
What % of hands in an average HUSNG are typically all-in preflop vs not as a crude estimate of pre-flop vs post-flop importance? 50%? 25%?

I have no idea about HUSNG so I bow to you but IMO preflop is still significantly important, for example, more than 10% is still a big edge if you have that part of the game down close to "perfectly."

As regards BOTs in cash games BOTs long term are a threat as theoretical understanding improves but current BOTs such as pervasive at iPoker are easy to beat. How close are current BOts to an expert game in HUSNG's?
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Old 06-26-2015, 09:48 PM   #1885
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I happened to be looking at the current list of prohibited software yesterday, and was startled to see that "Jennifear" was listed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Jennifear the name of a former player, and not of software?
Just about every winning tourney player has looked at the Jennifear push charts at some point. If the Jennifear charts are staying on the banned list, then you should probably ban people from having eyes in their heads.
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Old 06-26-2015, 11:12 PM   #1886
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by warrenBluffit View Post
Speaking of naive, you don't seem to understand where the money that gets raked comes from.

It comes from depositing recs not breakeven SNE's who never deposit.
OMFG

How sad can this be , i guess it cant get worse

The importance of recs is not in discussion and its so obvious and simple
im not even mentioning

what u need to understand is the business model , first u need recs then u need regs to have the best possible profit if u eliminate or reduce the abilitie they have to rake u decrease profits ,

In business u either grow or die.

u read a quite simple text and u where not able to understand , congrats
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Old 06-26-2015, 11:14 PM   #1887
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by MX210 View Post
stop reading his nonsense. He does not even understand that rake paid for SNE's = money going back to SNE and rake paid by lower tier's = more % of rake into pokerstars pocket.

High rakeback deals/earners is not good for the site nor the regs. The best sites have the lowest rakeback.

nonsense

Only 1 word decent in your post
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Old 06-26-2015, 11:44 PM   #1888
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Ok, you're a bit too much for my brain to handle, so adios, you braindead troll
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Old 06-27-2015, 04:54 AM   #1889
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by JonIrenicus View Post
so it's a like a "preflop bot" ?
Nothing is automated, so, no. In what conceivable way does the following fit the definition for a bot?

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Old 06-27-2015, 05:58 AM   #1890
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by skier_5 View Post
Nothing is automated, so, no. In what conceivable way does the following fit the definition for a bot?
<snip>Nash charts</snip>
It doesn't but I understood (correct me if I'm wrong) your charts say fold or limp or raise or shove by stacksize enumerated for all pre-flop choices by all stacksizes in 1BB or even finer stack increments not simply the Nash charts for a toy game where push or not are the only choices.

Is that understanding correct? If so how is that different from a pre-flop Bot? If not, what is to stop such a full enumeration today anyway (in which case we again have a pre-flop Bot)?

Last edited by TimTamBiscuit; 06-27-2015 at 06:00 AM. Reason: Ludicrous that an autofold 72o is illegal but a Human reading a complete decision is not.
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Old 06-27-2015, 06:41 AM   #1891
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimTamBiscuit View Post
What % of hands in an average HUSNG are typically all-in preflop vs not as a crude estimate of pre-flop vs post-flop importance? 50%? 25%?

I have no idea about HUSNG so I bow to you but IMO preflop is still significantly important, for example, more than 10% is still a big edge if you have that part of the game down close to "perfectly."

As regards BOTs in cash games BOTs long term are a threat as theoretical understanding improves but current BOTs such as pervasive at iPoker are easy to beat. How close are current BOts to an expert game in HUSNG's?
I would guess maybe 30%, but I don't think you can say that figure is representative of much because a lot of the push/fold stuff is obvious. Many people open shove 22 at various stack sizes or over an open raise, etc. It's like saying 3 barreling the nuts is part of where you get an edge from. Even then, the comparison of no strategy to charts plus a very good strategy is ludicrous. It's not like removing charts is going to remove the edge of a better strategy if one is achievable. I have no idea how good current bots are as I don't believe I've ever played one.
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Old 06-27-2015, 06:44 AM   #1892
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by fish_but_lucky View Post
I admit that i have worded it poorly, but thats not the point. My point is: you don't have to use logic to remember past hands, you need memory. It's true that remembering how your opponent have played in the past is part of the game, but i think that online you play vs too many opponents to be able to remember it correctly. Moreover, you don't see how your opponent look like( all you have is his screenname) wich makes it harder to remember how he played in the past. For all these reasons, i think that having something that reports you how your opponents have played while playing is fair.
You may not have to use logic to 'remember' hands, but you certainly do require logic to aggregate and 'interpret' hands into statistics like HUDs do. Pokerstars does have avatars as well as screen names, which I do find very helpful with remembering players and you have a built in note facility to help you overcome the lack of ability to see players and to deal with the number of players which you play with. If that is your litmus test, then I contend that you need even less logic to remember a set charts. That is purely a memory exercise. Then you may argue that HUDs can also be considered charts and we can go in circles..

Quote:
Originally Posted by fish_but_lucky View Post
how accurate or powerful huds are has nothing to do with how fair they are and you can't compare hud vs charts/your programm/bots based on that. what a programm do(the nature of a programm) is what we should compare to decide if they are fair or not, not how powerful they are. I know you understand that cause when people criricized your programm you said something like "why 1 chart is ok and 100 are not?"
So yes today's hud report past hands very well and yes there's calculations made to turn text files into hud stats or n/c, doesnt mean thats wrong.
Now you're backtracking. Previously you used writing down the "first 2 steps" of something as an example of something which was unfair and then when I pointed out that the poker decision making process is like a pipeline which includes the aggregation and interpretation of previous history, you changed your argument. I'm not trying to have a discussion on why HUDs are too powerful (though they are getting there), I'm trying to point out that by your logic there is not much separation between charts and HUDs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fish_but_lucky View Post
no, it's like having a calculator to solve an equation at the exam cause you not supposed to calculate 258*164 mentally
Having all of your HUD stuff displayed is ok because it's 'like having a calculator' but showing a matrix of equities vs past hands is different how exactly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fish_but_lucky View Post
-Can you explain to me how hud stats and color coding tell you what to do? What do you mean by "interpreting past history"?
-I dont see why clever coding is unfair a clever colour coding for you might not be a clever coding for me cause we might interpret it differently.
I'm saying that you can set some colour codes for yourself. Red=Bet, Yellow=Check, etc which effectively tell you what to do when stats enter a certain range.


Quote:
Originally Posted by fish_but_lucky View Post
i don't see how, can you explain it to me more in details?
I can play against a friend. We can play 5 games at a time and have a superhud display our preflop strategies in minute detail and we can reevaluate how our stats are after every set of 5 games. We continue to do this until the 'histories' displayed in our HUD match how we want to play going forward.
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Old 06-27-2015, 07:40 AM   #1893
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
I happened to be looking at the current list of prohibited software yesterday, and was startled to see that "Jennifear" was listed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Jennifear the name of a former player, and not of software?
Just about every winning tourney player has looked at the Jennifear push charts at some point. If the Jennifear charts are staying on the banned list, then you should probably ban people from having eyes in their heads.
It would never have comed into my mind, that a pure PoF-Chart could be prohibitted. I always thought that there must be some tool out there like HRC or ICMIZER (something like that), that`s named "Jennifear", but not that the charts itself are forbidden.
There are so many training videos with coaches using these charts ingame and explaining how to deviate from them in certain spots. Did they all break the rules?
Do they really mean these basic-leveled Push-Charts by "Jennifear"?
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Old 06-27-2015, 07:45 AM   #1894
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by skier_5 View Post
Having all of your HUD stuff displayed is ok because it's 'like having a calculator' but showing a matrix of equities vs past hands is different how exactly?
For anyone ancient enough to remember trig tables and a time when maths at school did not come with a scientific calculator the difference, even as an analogy, breaks down.

Back in the day the tables basically were the calculator :-)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trigonometric_tables
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Old 06-27-2015, 08:13 AM   #1895
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

^ I'm not that old, but in the mid 90s (and possibly now) if you studied maths long enough you eventually got outside the capabilities of a typical scientific calculator - so we had paper tables with poisson and normal distributions etc.
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Old 06-27-2015, 09:26 AM   #1896
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by devera View Post
Ok, you're a bit too much for my brain to handle, so adios, you braindead troll

Yeah i understand prolly nl 5 has the same effect on your brain


Classic weak fish reg thats what u seem , u just cant beat the game cuz of these advanced softwarez



----

This message is hidden because devera is on your ignore list.
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Old 06-27-2015, 10:11 AM   #1897
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

you guys (like OP) still dabbling around in semantics?

where do you want to be after applying f(x)?

do you want to be able to set the human bit? PLAYER_TYPE_HUMAN = 0x20

or are you actually trying to describe capabilities that leave footprints in data?

like in the bot scandal.
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Old 06-27-2015, 10:38 AM   #1898
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
For anyone ancient enough to remember trig tables and a time when maths at school did not come with a scientific calculator the difference, even as an analogy, breaks down.
I think you should really consider the point about the charts deeper.
A HUD is basically a function like this:

HUD(game state, database) -> some results

While a chart is:

CHART(database) -> some results

Both use the very same computer operations to calculate their results and both need a lot of storage (HUDs need more). Maybe what a HUD needs is even more complicated (implementing a database capable of opeartions on hand histories needed for HUD stats is a big complicated task while calculating some equilibriums and storing some equities is relatively simple in terms of what kind of operations you need to use).
Any rule that prevents a chart and allows a HUD would need to go around those facts.

Sensible rule could put restrictions on arguments of the function you can use (can/can't use the game state) or the way the results are displayed (can be displayed during the game or not). You can't hope to monitor what exact operations are allowed during the process of calculation as it's both impossible to do in reasonable short and clear way and completely impossible to enforce.
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Old 06-27-2015, 11:12 AM   #1899
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimTamBiscuit View Post
It doesn't but I understood (correct me if I'm wrong) your charts say fold or limp or raise or shove by stacksize enumerated for all pre-flop choices by all stacksizes in 1BB or even finer stack increments not simply the Nash charts for a toy game where push or not are the only choices.

Is that understanding correct? If so how is that different from a pre-flop Bot? If not, what is to stop such a full enumeration today anyway (in which case we again have a pre-flop Bot)?
Again, what part of what you described fits the definition for a bot? How does the comprehensiveness of a chart take it from a chart to a bot? Toy game or not, many people use the nash charts while they play. Can you explain how me adding limp 0% and raise to every number of blinds as 0% to the nash chart I posted turns it into a bot?

It's different because it's not automated. What you described is a set of charts (apart from your 72o, which does enter bot territory - why is it ok to autofold 72o but not 3bet xx with the frequencies i decide?).
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Old 06-27-2015, 11:24 AM   #1900
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

xposting this from the Hastings/NoelHayes thread as it definitely has some relevance here...just so, so discouraging if this stuff about the Stars security department's general attitude is even close to accurate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Bass View Post
This already feels like opening a Pandora's box I shouldn't want to re-open but whatever...

The problem here is NOT Brian Hastings. It's PokerStars and their absolute joke of a security department. Two years ago when I went to IoM for the Stars meetings I did a couple of months of investigation beforehands and handed them piles and piles of evidence of blatant cheating, a LOT worse than what Hastings did here. To my knowledge they caught one person, and for this guy we had actual screen prints. A big case I handed to them was a guy who won over 6 figures and we had absolutely everything; the VPN he used, the precise address in Canada it was rerouting to, the precise address in USA where he played from, three witnesses who had been in the same room. Stars' response? "Our system doesn't show it, we can't do anything" or something along those lines.

I enjoyed talking to most people from Stars and all their different departments, most of them also seemed very open for criticism and new ideas. The only department that entirely shunned me was the security department, they just basically denied everything despite damning evidence of millions and millions being taken away from the poker comminity annually to the deep pockets of the few rich cheaters who organize these things. It's one thing that they can't keep up with the pace of rich cyber-cheaters, I can understand that. But their attitude, that they literally did not give two ****s about it and refused to even listen, that was something I'll always remember.

"No, this doesn't happen on our site, you are WRONG".
"Come on man just LOOK AT THIS"
"You are wrong"

That was basically the depth of our discussion, obv not a word for word quote but this is how I basically felt they responded.

Since then I have largely both stopped participating in the international poker community and playing on Stars (not trying to sound like a hypocrite, the cheating was not the main reason to this if a reason at all). But like Daryl (aaaaaaaa) posted above it's funny, I talk to people about poker probably 50x less than I used to, and still I actually hear MORE cheating stories than ever before. What Brian did here is like the 739th worst thing I've heard in the last couple of years.

I tried to suggest Stars that they would hire an outside group of tech experts to clean the games. Their security department was, and I assume still is, a complete joke and incapable of detecting anything. Why isn't Hastings banned yet? Because they are unable to detect him still. That PM Bakes posted miiiiight get him banned but without it no way. 0 chance of him getting caught through Stars' own systems. If they spent, say, 100k on hiring some tech nerds, really epic hackers, it would be less than they probably spent hiring Ronaldo's left foot and they could actually see some progress.
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