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Old 06-24-2015, 03:36 PM   #1776
LukeSilver
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
Have regs been awarded the poker equivalent of a Darwin Award yet?

If you're top of the food chain, it's a fundamental evolutionary mistake to welcome the introduction of a destabilizing rival that possesses superior intelligence. By welcoming AI/robot technology into your games, you're helping to kill the prey (fish) you rely on to feed and clothe you. Ultimately, you're killing yourselves. That's not very clever really, is it?
I don't think its the case that many regs have access to skiers software but, i do think its the case the ones that do are been very active in these threads which creates an inaccurate impression of player support ratios.

However your analogy is a good one because, if skiers software is allowed to continue then one of three things will happen,

1, is that others will develop software that is better and many others will it will become wide spread and then the games will be killed.since no one will be able to make much money because everyone would be playing GTO using basically bots.

2. people are not allowed or fail to produce better but produce just as good it becomes wide spread, and same result.

3. others follow Skiers modal when developing the software and now I would have to have a job interview to persuade someone to allow me to use the software where I will be set targets on threat of been fired be on low wages and little prospect of wage rise.

I got into poker because in everything in life you need someone to say yes you want a job someone has to say yes to you. You want to sell things or run your own business people need to say yes to you.

and most people dont like to see me succeed there is a social hierarchy and people can will and do actions to hold me down, and stop me getting ahead. the attraction to poker is it does not matter what people think of me or try and do to me I can get ahead if I am good enough.

and it becomes costly to target me, either you are better then me, in which case you can beat higher stakes then I play, so eventually you will get bored of targeting me for a reduced hourly rate or your not as good as me in which case you cant do anything anyway.

Poker is the one thing where If i put the work in and I am good enough at it I am safe from the bull**** which is typical in society if you change that it has nothing to offer and I will go towards stocks.

I have nothing personal against skier I just don't want to need his permission to be a winning poker player or anyone elses permission.

this is what will happen if skier software allowed, and then to win what because it will be wide spread and even if someone says yes to me I will have 50% of a reduced win rate.

people might say who cares about my opinion but believe me there a lot of people like me on this issue.
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Old 06-24-2015, 03:38 PM   #1777
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
Have regs been awarded the poker equivalent of a Darwin Award yet?

If you're top of the food chain, it's a fundamental evolutionary mistake to welcome the introduction of a destabilizing rival that possesses superior intelligence. By welcoming AI/robot technology into your games, you're helping to kill the prey (fish) you rely on to feed and clothe you. Ultimately, you're killing yourselves. That's not very clever really, is it?
85% of top regs are for banning everything. The only people defending are the rare top reg, the bad regs and mostly the guys making addons/selling hh's.

Spoiler:
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Old 06-24-2015, 03:40 PM   #1778
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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No response from Pokerstars? Says 10 days in OP but can't find another post from any of the reps about this.
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Originally Posted by UKZodiac View Post
There isn't one to find.

At this point it would be helpful for stars to come on and either confirm that they want this discussion to continue longer or if they've heard enough.
They're probably in a state of shock/panic at the huge can of worms they have opened up.

I am guessing some sort of damage control response is being worked on at this stage.
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Old 06-24-2015, 03:43 PM   #1779
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Richas View Post
Better if every "approved" app being used by a player is declared o the client and displayed for all to see like mobile and tablet users (non hud) are highlighted in the client :-)

Each app can have a brief cliffs style video associated with it to tell everyone what their opponent is using. After all, its approved, why hide it?
I can actually agree with this. I think there should be a list of permitted software in the ToS, with links to pages where one can get it e.g. in options -> advanced options -> software. Making it too obvious (i.e. a popup every time one logs in, or differing logos for those using software) would drive away recs and fuel the rigtards IMO.
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Old 06-24-2015, 04:20 PM   #1780
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by MX210 View Post
85% of top regs are for banning everything. The only people defending are the rare top reg, the bad regs and mostly the guys making addons/selling hh's.

Spoiler:
Keep you paying for your PTR-subscription so you can continue making posts like this:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=1392

You might wanna have a look at Stars' list of tools and services which are prohibited at all times.

Last edited by Mike Haven; 06-29-2015 at 06:50 PM.
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Old 06-24-2015, 04:47 PM   #1781
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

well, he busted a cheater. thats what you guys advertise all the time your softwares can do in addition to mass data mining.
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Old 06-24-2015, 05:06 PM   #1782
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by FR-Nit View Post
Keep you paying for your PTR-subscription so you can continue making posts like this:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=1392

You might wanna have a look at Stars' list of tools and services which are prohibited at all times. Stupid scumbag playing smart-ass!
Losing so badly that you decide to call him a scumbag? This bodes well for your argument.GG software that does all the thinking for a player, and viciously attacks recreational players.
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Old 06-24-2015, 06:35 PM   #1783
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

especialy when im not actually paying for it. I use free accounts. I can make 50 per day if i need to. All his customers buy hands from PTR though.
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Old 06-24-2015, 06:53 PM   #1784
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Richas View Post
You mean apart from being irritating as **** and destroying poker for anybody who is not playing roughly 2 more tables than he has time to deal with, you know the recs, the customers, your clients, the people paying your bills?

No apart from killing poker and reducing your income medium and lng term I can't think of anything against it, well you asking the question suggests that incipient paranoia is not the realm of rigtard recs after all it has a home in the reg camp too, you may want to let your counsellor know o that you can discuss it.
I know it would be irritating for other players, but i just try to deal and use what is already allowed instead of asking for banning everything i dont like.
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Old 06-24-2015, 06:59 PM   #1785
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by MX210 View Post
and outside of those you have MrJuliusDhelas that keeps posting complete crazyness that nobody reads
Don't lose sight of the message ie we are boiling the ocean thinking of extravagent ways to collude or whatever through technology when people can simply share notes/ reads.

The main threat to Pokerstars is bots.
I hope Pokerstars announce something soon that's clear and enforceable so they can focus on what matters ie becoming better at picking up bots.
Given the informational advantage Pokerstars has, for 2+2ers to be the source of 5% of "bots found" is awful and shows they are not doing a good enough job (and that 5% number is likely understated).
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Old 06-24-2015, 07:15 PM   #1786
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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I personally think sharing info/reads even within staking groups should be illegal, but everyone does it. If you have been a midstakes 6max reg for more than a year I would put money on it that you too have shared reads on players with someone else who has never played those players. Banning this behaviour is unenforceable.
You'd lose your money because hand-on-heart, over my dead father's grave, I have never, ever shared reads on players with anyone. Closest I have come (a long time ago) is to post the rare anonymous hand or (all the time) post a boom hand which doesn't identify anyone other than me. I never post hands any more either.

I don't have any poker friends on Skype or in the real world that are in my player pool.

Note, I am not a midstakes reg, I am a 100NL Zoom 6-max reg. I have played some 200NL Zoom 6-max, too. The 100NL Zoom pool is small enough that I deliberately try hard to be unknown/readless within it as part of an edge. Any information revealed is a leak IMO. I review unfolded hands extensively so I can't see what info I'd have to gain from others that I can't harvest myself other than timing tells (which I don't have access to in folded Zoom hands without software I don't use).
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Old 06-24-2015, 07:19 PM   #1787
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by pies01 View Post
Don't lose sight of the message ie we are boiling the ocean thinking of extravagent ways to collude or whatever through technology when people can simply share notes/ reads.

The main threat to Pokerstars is bots.
I hope Pokerstars announce something soon that's clear and enforceable so they can focus on what matters ie becoming better at picking up bots.
Given the informational advantage Pokerstars has, for 2+2ers to be the source of 5% of "bots found" is awful and shows they are not doing a good enough job (and that 5% number is likely understated).
Notecaddy, scripts(and other software) and bots are about equal when it comes to destroying online poker.
Seat hopping and tablecamping is quite bad for online poker also, but not as bad as software and bots
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Old 06-24-2015, 07:25 PM   #1788
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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It's not the death of spins just yet lol. Currently you can beat the games at any level without spinwiz anyway.

I still see nothing wrong with this sort of seating software. Imo stars created the format thinking about how regs will grind it. If they wanted blind lobbies they would have made blind lobbies. Spinwiz does not create collusion in the form of sharing sitlists, the players do. All spinwiz does is make registration easier.

Stars can take your suggestion into account and make a decision (I suspect they already have by not implementing it).
Did I miss the brain-reboot that forgot all the previous discussion?

Stars obviously thought they did create a blind queue. Earlier in the thread there is an email from support to a player telling them seating is random in Spin&Go's. SpinWiz enables collusion of sitting recs and collusion of not-sitting regs. I tarped you into admitting it so give up already, don't brain reboot.

I can assure you that I and many others will publicise the collusive nature of the current Spin&Go's far and wide and either completely kill action in Spin&Go's as informed recs desert it or force Pokerstars to implement their obvious intent for blind queues. Richas seem to think UK gaming commission regulations is a good place to start to force Pokerstars hand.
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Old 06-24-2015, 07:29 PM   #1789
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by king acehole View Post
+1, your laugh on banning HUDs would make poker Russian roulette. I think banning HUDs would make poker much easier! LOL.
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Old 06-24-2015, 07:42 PM   #1790
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Personally I'd rather see the emphasis on poker being a game of skill rather than who's spent the most time taking meticulous notes.
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Old 06-24-2015, 07:45 PM   #1791
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by pies01 View Post
Don't lose sight of the message ie we are boiling the ocean thinking of extravagent ways to collude or whatever through technology when people can simply share notes/ reads.

The main threat to Pokerstars is bots.
I hope Pokerstars announce something soon that's clear and enforceable so they can focus on what matters ie becoming better at picking up bots.
Given the informational advantage Pokerstars has, for 2+2ers to be the source of 5% of "bots found" is awful and shows they are not doing a good enough job (and that 5% number is likely understated).
1. In cash games, iPoker is full of bots but they have many leaks and they don't adapt allowing alert regs to do just fine.

2. Given short-stacked HUSNG's are a close-to-solved form of poker I can't see any practical difference between a bot and Skier's software or HUDs with Skier's charts apart from early 25BB play. The problem is that simple forms of poker are getting close to completely solved. You can ban Skier's software, ban HUDs and people will still have paper charts of the shoving solution that are in practice the same as Bots.
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Old 06-24-2015, 07:50 PM   #1792
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Sorry, are you only just catching up that most of it is core HEM stuff but customised, repackaged and sold to lazy regs? Are you still only just getting that the tools that can bu used on legal data are also essential tools for data cheats? - Conveniently they make the data cheating as easy as possible :-)

This might be why the cre tracking HUD cooperating with the site is the only way to police datamining and in gae data abuse.....
I think you'll find I've been singing a consistent song the whole thread.
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Old 06-24-2015, 07:55 PM   #1793
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

This SNG argument is bull**** when you have guys like JorJ95 and MrGr33n that still completely violate anyone that comes in contact with them
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Old 06-24-2015, 08:05 PM   #1794
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Richas seem to think UK gaming commission regulations is a good place to start to force Pokerstars hand.
That I do. I have had detailed correspondence with them on it and met with them on Third Party software issues earlier this year.

If anyone cares, this is my consultation submission to them from two years ago.

http://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk...tachment-1.pdf

Pages 4-14 of that PDF deal with third party poker software

Pages 20-34 deal with cheating, attempting to outline the various forms of cheating and what is not but might be "unethical". This also covers details of the cheating reporting that they should demand of poker sites.

Pages 39-43 deal with licencing third party poker software suppliers.

Some of it is a bit dated now and I might have matured in my view a bit since then but it does show what they could do to help.

Essentially the standard on third party software should be in line with the UKGC primary licencing goals. These are to make sure Gambling is "Fair and Open" and that Crime (including cheating) is kept out of gambling.

Now Pokerstars already has a licence requiremnt to do that.UK licenced they need to look at the approved software list and the prohibited list(s) in line with those licencing commitments. This review of policy on permitted software is absolutely 100% covered by their commitments on these three things already - it has to aim to keep gambling fair and open and must seek to deter and prevent cheting. That's the rules they signed up to.
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Old 06-24-2015, 08:20 PM   #1795
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by TimTamBiscuit View Post
1. In cash games, iPoker is full of bots but they have many leaks and they don't adapt allowing alert regs to do just fine.

2. Given short-stacked HUSNG's are a close-to-solved form of poker I can't see any practical difference between a bot and Skier's software or HUDs with Skier's charts apart from early 25BB play. The problem is that simple forms of poker are getting close to completely solved. You can ban Skier's software, ban HUDs and people will still have paper charts of the shoving solution that are in practice the same as Bots.
1) based on the $1m profits made by the recent plo bot scam, it's not inconceivable to think that bots can crush NL too
2) HUSNGs are a LOT more than preflop beyond "early 25bb play" and maybe this type of misunderstanding is what is driving you into a frenzy re: collusion and plots etc
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Old 06-24-2015, 08:29 PM   #1796
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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1) based on the $1m profits made by the recent plo bot scam, it's not inconceivable to think that bots can crush NL too
2) HUSNGs are a LOT more than preflop beyond "early 25bb play" and maybe this type of misunderstanding is what is driving you into a frenzy re: collusion and plots etc
1. The PLO Bots had a rather simple but highly exploitative script. Their winnings are evidence of how bad the player pool is and how easily exploited it is rather than evidence of Bots being unbeatable. Definitely a similar script would work at NL as the same player pool tendencies in similar stakes are present. But the PLO Bots were easily counter-exploitable. Their simple strategy was easy to counter.

2. I'm certainly a novice at HUSNGs but I am not a novice at mathematics. If ROI% can be lifted by the tiniest of % it prints money. Colluding to avoid regs prints money. I probably underestimate the importance of post-flop play in HUSNGs because I have the cash game double leak of thinking I'm much better at post-flop than tourney players but haven't a clue about short stack play.
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Old 06-24-2015, 08:37 PM   #1797
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by MX210 View Post
85% of top regs are for banning everything. The only people defending are the rare top reg, the bad regs and mostly the guys making addons/selling hh's.

Spoiler:
thank you now i know i have at least 1 avid reader

So you talked with all the regs (prolly some thousands) to accuratly know 85% of them want everything to be banned , including hm2 that will help in tracking bots or frauds

You also know nobody of the thousands readers in this thread reads my posts
because u also talked with them

And to finish u put CRAZYNESS in the same sentence

I have to admit when i read your post and see your nick is mtx210 i just thought poor lad prolly he has to take this pill everyday against schizo or paranoia

The fact you cant understand doesnt mean its crazy , it means U CANT UNDERSTAND .


Your arguments , 85% 100% i know what they want just sound complete dellusional , u know jack s++++ about what most people want


Go to a kindergarden and ask them how can we save the universe

They dont know cuz

1 - they r imature

2 - they dont have experience

3 - they dont have the knowledge

that sums up this thread , perhaps im harsh and sound crazy and perhpas u still dont get my point


most people talk about programs they dont know

most people talk about solutions illogical that will have the reverse result

most people think theres miraculous cure for all problems

most people dont understand the digital world we live in

This last sentence is quite important if you are able wich your arenot
to understand the true meaning of this

Most software allowed is prolly fine (i assume i dont know all progs) if people use them wrongly the best solution is to investigate and punish
because clients are clients , if a reg rakes 900 000 euros in a year
do u think stars doesnt also has to considerate his opinion besides recs

What % of rake is generated from recs and regs ?

Its hilarious to say , the cause of the reason i lose is a authorized program wich im allowed to use if i want to ....

If 200 regs rake the same has 1000 recs , then u must understand stars has to catter for theyr needs , stars is a company it needs profit to grow
to advertise ofc

So the opinion of recs and regs is important and the last cannot put volume or generate rake without some auto software


Poker has decreased so they say because a multitude of reasons
most important the amount of poker shools , videos , youtube videos ,
on the last part we have software , then closed markets , overall crisis etc

IT HASNT DECREASED FOR 1 REASON BUT BECAUSE A SERIES OF REASONS


Theres is not a miracule solution


oh just ban all software , poker will grow , hords will deposit... lol


recs - least 80% of theyr losses are only because they play bad not because of any software if u can get this u will see the point above has no logic
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Old 06-24-2015, 08:46 PM   #1798
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by TimTamBiscuit View Post
+1, your laugh on banning HUDs would make poker Russian roulette. I think banning HUDs would make poker much easier! LOL.
U laughed at a joke wich u didnt understand.


So u play zoom 6 max , and you are against HUDs ?

Ok....and you are a reg ?

I would say this sounds terribly funny , although its possible to beat zoom , with a fixed strategy and discipline and no HUD i just think its quite strange for some1 in this format to act write that

Seems u should be at NL1K Zoom
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Old 06-24-2015, 08:53 PM   #1799
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

...Eagerly awaiting some kind of communication (or, dare I say, decision) from PokerStars, while ignoring the raging flame wars the thread has turned into...
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Old 06-24-2015, 09:03 PM   #1800
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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...Eagerly awaiting some kind of communication (or, dare I say, decision) from PokerStars, while ignoring the raging flame wars the thread has turned into...
When sharks run out of food, cannibalism results.

It's happened in this thread, it happens in NVG and it happens in the Pokerstars lobbies. And it's all completely stupid and could have been prevented with some foresight years ago. Poker players and poker sites should have worked together to keep the ecology healthy. But you know what poker players and poker sites are like... everyone wants to get an edge. Short-term self-interests have resulted in a long-term cluster****. #TragedyOfTheCommons
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