Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Internet Poker Discussions of Internet poker venues, including RB & bonuses.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-24-2015, 10:43 AM   #1726
MX210
banned
 
MX210's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 401
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamPrieto View Post
You ask for NC being banned because there is people datamining?
an other NC shill:



this guy is even using a timing tell program.
MX210 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2015, 10:46 AM   #1727
MX210
banned
 
MX210's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 401
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

this shill is one of those gentle regs that time down on every decision on purpose:


here he's sad because the program won't play for him:

MX210 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2015, 10:47 AM   #1728
FR-Nit
adept
 
FR-Nit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 981
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by MX210 View Post
I urge everyone to just block these guys, as seen here he's trying to bait me into deviating from the fact that his HUD does not work without datamines. I personally tried it and having played in a small player pool for over 100k hand still wasn't enough to get most stats to work.
Bolded is a obv lie!
FR-Nit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2015, 10:51 AM   #1729
mme
old hand
 
mme's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: true anti-CFR-HUDs
Posts: 1,668
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

i remember math gurus in this forum warning that many stats take very many hands to be meaningful.
mme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2015, 10:51 AM   #1730
WilliamPrieto
journeyman
 
WilliamPrieto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 239
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by MX210 View Post
I urge everyone to just block these guys, as seen here he's trying to bait me into deviating from the fact that his HUD does not work without datamines. I personally tried it and having played in a small player pool for over 100k hand still wasn't enough to get most stats to work.
NC comes with some basic stats.

It doesnt matter how specific or complex stats NC packs creators build, NC is not the issue nor any of these other s/w you are talking about, it is datamining.
WilliamPrieto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2015, 10:51 AM   #1731
TimTamBiscuit
veteran
 
TimTamBiscuit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: cRUSHed!!!!!!
Posts: 2,134
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by pies01 View Post
Would you be happy to have pokerstars post to all online players the power of NC? eg timing tells, preflop charts and all?
I just had a quick look at HM2's supplied sample tournament HUD and the popups for tourney stats by stacksize, and Nash push/call charts. By tailoring these and adding as necessary you'd surely have the equivalent of Skier's tool (assuming Skier's knowledge).

There seems plenty of power just in HM2 so again if you think NC's tournament power should be banned you'd need to ban HM2/PT4, too.
TimTamBiscuit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2015, 10:55 AM   #1732
punter11235
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: solving poker
Posts: 8,179
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
I admit that i have worded it poorly, but thats not the point. My point is: you don't have to use logic to remember past hands, you need memory. It's true that remembering how your opponent have played in the past is part of the game, but i think that online you play vs too many opponents to be able to remember it correctly. Moreover, you don't see how your opponent look like( all you have is his screenname) wich makes it harder to remember how he played in the past. For all these reasons, i think that having something that reports you how your opponents have played while playing is fair.
The problem is that you don't get raw HHs or otherwise written account of what happened in the past. You get highly processed results geared to give you maximally useful advice. There is no to very little difference from programming point of view between providing a stat like VPIP and solving for equilibrium and showing optimal flop strategy or making full opponent profile and showing max exploit vs it. Both require crunching a lot of numbers and doing a lot of multiplications, divisions and additions.

In fact you can derive very decent preflop strategy way faster with way less operations and data than today trackers need to import decently sized DB and prepare HUD stats from it.

I think there is nothing you can (or should) do against advanced DB analysis. What is the problem though is providing the results in-game which is, if advanced enough, for all purposes the same as "human botting" (so a human clicking displayed advice).

Last edited by punter11235; 06-24-2015 at 11:06 AM.
punter11235 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2015, 10:56 AM   #1733
WilliamPrieto
journeyman
 
WilliamPrieto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 239
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
this shill is one of those gentle regs that time down on every decision on purpose:

here he's sad because the program won't play for him:
Will you tell me it is a bad idea to act always at the same amount of time to hide any timing tell? if there is such a tool like time mojo now i think the best you can do is to be beware against it.
WilliamPrieto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2015, 10:56 AM   #1734
watergun7
veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,768
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by mme View Post
btw, i got an infraction for berating watermelon7. a minor one and not that it matters much. still i am convinced a 100% that public berating and shaming these cheaters is the absolute right thing to do.
lololol. You made zero good arguments and contribute nothing to the discussion.

I don't berate your beliefs but I will post why I think you are wrong. You can do the same rather than name calling.
watergun7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2015, 10:58 AM   #1735
mme
old hand
 
mme's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: true anti-CFR-HUDs
Posts: 1,668
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by punter11235 View Post
The problem is that you don't get raw HHs or otherwise written account of what happened in the past. You get highly processed results geared to give you maximally useful advice. There is no to very little difference from programming point of view between providing a stat like VPIP and solving for equilibrium and showing optimal flop strategy or making full opponent profile and showing max exploit vs it. Both require crunching a lot of numbers and doing a lot of multiplications, divisions and additions.
ban advanced math operations then. taking square root for example. there has to be a line somewhere that saves NC.
mme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2015, 11:02 AM   #1736
watergun7
veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,768
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by punter11235 View Post
The problem is that you don't get raw HHs or otherwise written account of what happened in the past. You get highly processed results geared to give you maximally useful advice. There is no to very little difference from programming point of view between providing a stat like VPIP and solving for equilibrium and showing optimal flop strategy or making full opponent profile and showing max exploit vs it. Both require crunching a lot of numbers and doing a lot of multiplications, divisions and additions.

In fact you can derive very decent preflop strategy way faster with way less operations and data than today trackers import decently sized DB and prepare HUD stats from it.
Yes it's unfortunate that AI has improved so much in poker that advanced huds can produce highly complex strategies akin to running a bot in some games. It's a difficult problem for pokerstars to solve. Do you know how stars handles the unversity of alberta site which gives full solution to limit holdem? I noticed that HU limit is still running on stars.
watergun7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2015, 11:08 AM   #1737
TimTamBiscuit
veteran
 
TimTamBiscuit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: cRUSHed!!!!!!
Posts: 2,134
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamPrieto View Post
NC comes with some basic stats.

It doesnt matter how specific or complex stats NC packs creators build, NC is not the issue nor any of these other s/w you are talking about, it is datamining.
+1, datamining is a big issue. Much of the judgement call in using NC in game is trying to put an intuitive confidence interval around the stat due to insufficient sample size then judging whether that negates the badge/definition's diagnosis.

Note, however, in cash games that a big sample can be a bigger problem than a small sample if the player is capable of skilfully gear-changing so their averages mislead. You may need to compare recent small sample behaviour with long term average behaviour and make another judgement call about meaningfulness. This is not unlike the need in tournaments to have stat samples by stacksize instead of overall tournament average stats.
TimTamBiscuit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2015, 11:11 AM   #1738
mme
old hand
 
mme's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: true anti-CFR-HUDs
Posts: 1,668
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimTamBiscuit View Post
Note, however, that a big sample can be a bigger problem than a small sample if the player is capable of skilfully gear-changing so their averages mislead. You may need to compare recent small sample behaviour with long term average behaviour and make another judgement call about meaningfulness.
this is not yet built in? should be rather easy to throw in if there is demand for such a feature.
mme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2015, 11:12 AM   #1739
CoronalDischarge
grinder
 
CoronalDischarge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Swongs and Donkabouts
Posts: 574
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by watergun7 View Post
Yes it's unfortunate that AI has improved so much in poker that advanced huds can produce highly complex strategies akin to running a bot in some games. It's a difficult problem for pokerstars to solve. Do you know how stars handles the unversity of alberta site which gives full solution to limit holdem? I noticed that HU limit is still running on stars.
Fortunately the site runs too slow to be of any use in-game. Also the full strat is many orders of magnitude too large and too mind-fuddlingly full of mixed strats for there to be any possibility of a person memorising or printing out substantial portions of it.
CoronalDischarge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2015, 11:15 AM   #1740
MrJuliusDhelas
banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 290
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJuliusDhelas View Post
Some of the software mentioned is

PUBLIC + has comercial SITES + it appears in countless youtube VIDEOS etcetc

also its known by hundreds of people , its in hundreds of foruns if people dont use it
its because they dont care , they dont want to invest time in learning it

Its just hilarious someone coming to 2+2 and finding out OH WHAT IS THIS ???

So u have hundreds of posts in 2+2 with software programs , hundreds of threads discussing openly the software programs

Now that pokerstars make this thread , i see people with more posts than me at 2+2
getting a REAL SURPRISE when the forum is flooded with info about everything
obv they already knew but didnt care and now without actually doing the work themselves of READING and ASKING they just say

WE ARE VICTIMS , WE ARE BEING CHASED , OH MY GOD THIS IS WHY I LOSE

HILARIOUS.


-----

Only people who actually KNOW what programs do and do not can form an opinion credible if we dont have some indepth knowledge obv our opinions will have serious flaws.





And yet your post contains generalisations, speculation and hyperbole.







Yes i know 2 programs better than many and i still think i DONT HAVE THE SUFF KNOWLEDGE to comment them so i do find hilarious to see people who dont even understand how the program works making end of the world comments
MrJuliusDhelas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2015, 11:15 AM   #1741
mme
old hand
 
mme's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: true anti-CFR-HUDs
Posts: 1,668
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoronalDischarge View Post
Fortunately the site runs too slow to be of any use in-game. Also the full strat is many orders of magnitude too large and too mind-fuddlingly full of mixed strats for there to be any possibility of a person memorising or printing out substantial portions of it.
not 100% sure, but i think you can grab the source code (at least their cfr+ algo is freely available, as announced by them in this forum).
mme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2015, 11:18 AM   #1742
watergun7
veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,768
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

More info re spinwiz/cartels.

At the 1ks in hu hypers no one uses sharkystrator. Instead there is a skype group of players who would just post "regged". When there are battles, there would just be battles. If you gained respect from enough regs they would let you in- but it typically took a lot of games (and a lot of losses/rake) to get in. It all started with mrgreen not liking the owner of sharky. He is also a big troll and decided to call this group a cartel (where this name comes from).

Then the 500s regs decided to do something similar and called themselves the maffia. This all trickled down into the system we have today down to 30s.

For spinwiz- orginally staking groups/friends would avoid each other by saying "in games" or something after regging. This is completely within the rules until a staking group developed some software to make it smoother for themselves. Eventually other ppl thought it was a good idea as well and it was expanded for general use for everyone. All spinwiz does is to make this process easier.

People later complained that this meant that bumhunters could buy the program and play higher stakes than they would normally be able to. Thus overwhelming majority of ppl want to have the "target other regs" feature.

Spinwiz is constantly being updated etc via suggestions.
watergun7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2015, 11:20 AM   #1743
watergun7
veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,768
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

In hindsight using the words cartel/maffia was prob a mistake as evident by the sort of misleading ideas thrown about ITT and elsewhere.
watergun7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2015, 11:23 AM   #1744
punter11235
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: solving poker
Posts: 8,179
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
not 100% sure, but i think you can grab the source code (at least their cfr+ algo is freely available, as announced by them in this forum).
It took them 70 days on a monster 4800 core computer with some 6TB of RAM to calculate.
This particular source won't be any good. It's only matter of time though till people solve HU Holdem on something way more accessible though.
You can also harvest preflop/flop strats and recalculate turns on your own. It's not something completely out of reach even today.
punter11235 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2015, 11:30 AM   #1745
MrJuliusDhelas
banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 290
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Ok

We use cars , now a guy decides hes gonna get drunk and kill people

Lets all stop using cars because they can be used to kill people




This sums up many arguments in this thread






People continue to debit huge amounts of inaccurate information , and constantly forget the most harmfull programs BOTS

they talk about innofensive programs like auto register tools or equilab and dont even know about bots , basically we are in kindergarden asking to the children how will we save the world
MrJuliusDhelas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2015, 11:31 AM   #1746
mme
old hand
 
mme's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: true anti-CFR-HUDs
Posts: 1,668
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by punter11235 View Post
It took them 70 days on a monster 4800 core computer with some 6TB of RAM to calculate.
This particular source won't be any good. It's only matter of time though till people solve HU Holdem on something way more accessible though.
You can also harvest preflop/flop strats and recalculate turns on your own. It's not something completely out of reach even today.

yeah, it was huge. on the other hand everyone who has access to something like this can run it. if it can be massively parallelized, i'd think a botnet would be a good call. i could be very wrong in any ways though.
mme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2015, 11:36 AM   #1747
TheDefiniteArticle
Indecisive
 
TheDefiniteArticle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Bristol, UK
Posts: 14,090
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

In general I'm on their side, but presumably the people who argue that the software is sufficiently available because it's easy to find out it exists wouldn't object to a list of permitted software being emailed to all PS players?
TheDefiniteArticle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2015, 11:41 AM   #1748
watergun7
veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,768
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I don't see how anyone can argue against that from a moral point of view, but it's prob not a good idea to email these things to clueless recs from a marketing perspective.

I'm all for banning all software as long as you can make it enforceable and make it work.
watergun7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2015, 11:44 AM   #1749
mme
old hand
 
mme's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: true anti-CFR-HUDs
Posts: 1,668
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

i thought getting clueless recs to buy said software was the whole point of it.
mme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2015, 11:52 AM   #1750
watergun7
veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,768
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I would think they would be put off from playing poker.

Anyway it depends what u want for the future of online poker.
watergun7 is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:11 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive