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Old 06-12-2015, 01:50 AM   #151
VP$IP
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Maybe we can agree that using CAPTCHA, after-the-fact statistical analysis to detect bots and prohibited software, and the threat of being banned is not really a winning strategy. It is just offering to chop the pot with cheaters.
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Old 06-12-2015, 02:01 AM   #152
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

would personally be up for banning all software during game if it was actually enforceable and I knew that no one else was using any software including HUDs etc. however unfortunately it's probably quite easy to use prohibited software being undetected (especially using it on an unconnected machine).

software like note caddy shouldn't be allowed either, obviously some basic poker knowledge is required to make use of most of the information but telling you stuff like "this guy 3bs these hands over the sample you have: (picture of all hands with colour coding based on frequency)" or "this guy folds to cbet on ace high boards is x" seems too much.
poker should not be about who has more powerful software etc, players should have to figure this stuff out themselves by doing stuff such as watching showdowns and making notes (crazy idea right?)

being able to obtain such an edge by being spoon-fed such specific stats and having to use the most basic logic is unfair, why should someone who plays a bunch of tables and doesn't see showdowns because of it be able to have software that tells them other players ranges and tendencies in every spot, "this guy only 5b all in with KK+" "this guy folds 80% over 38 similar scenarios in this spot"

people always say HUDs just use information already available. I have to admit you could argue that if a person works say an office job doing data-entry, their end result will be whatever data or spreadsheet completed, and that in poker in a basic world players could manually do a tonne of work to make detailed notes or even HUD stats (most exteme example would be say me going manually through all the hands I played, then figuring out what a players VPIP is by seeing how often they VPIP when given the chance, this obviously would take a long time). so I guess in that sense a HUD is just a tool that creates uber efficiency (and if a person wouldn't be able to do the work the HUD does alone, that doesn't necessarily mean the HUD should be be allowed I guess). In the office job manually entering each number as opposed to scripts that reduce time significantly are ofc super common.

idk just seems to me if I were a recreational player and had no idea about such software than saw or found out all these pros are using ridiculous software that tells them basically how I play in game without any skill of their own memory/study etc i would be annoyed. I don't need to post a pic to emphasise how detailed such software is these days. a lot of people reading this probably don't even realise how advanced stats can be.

most people only think HUDs should be allowed since it is the status quo and no one likes change and/or it's been like that as long as they remember (literally) and/or because it benefits them

anyway I don't really contribute much here since I don't really know what's a good solution as banning software would reward people who don't follow the rules some too much

*i obviously use a HUD

Last edited by OMGClayDol; 06-12-2015 at 02:18 AM.
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Old 06-12-2015, 02:28 AM   #153
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

on the subject of banning, can we ban otb_redbaron? the guy is taking all the money out of the poker on his own, he needs to go!
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Old 06-12-2015, 02:52 AM   #154
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Please take note caddy and poker stove off the list that is all tyty GG
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Old 06-12-2015, 03:05 AM   #155
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Are you allowed to write in a word pad to take notes on the player your playing? Or what if you write in a text book you have beside ur keyboard then refer to it next time you play that opponent ?
Basic notetaking is already part of the client, as is an ability to colour code players. This is basic read information. So fine.

I remain concerned about the ability to import notes, from or with illegal data but that is not an argument against basic note taking. If the client were to find say notes on players that the note taker has never played against that would be a sign of having used illegal data or imported another's notes (collusion).
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Old 06-12-2015, 03:06 AM   #156
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

3rd party software controls your HU SnG lobbies PStars, and self-appointed cartels control who gets action from recreational players. you may want to take a closer look at that after you're done rewriting your T&Cs over skier's charts.

oh and don't forget the $4,000,000 in refunds you owe PLO players. that should also be on the to-do list.
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Old 06-12-2015, 03:14 AM   #157
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Forgive me for quoting my own post but I'd just like to add, hasn't this whole question of whether certain software is legitimate or not arisen because the software in question (that originally gave rise to this thread) is only available to a very select few? Therefore confirming the point I, and a couple of others, was making?
No, that might be your concern but the fundamental problem is that third party s/w has got too good, it creates a completely uneven playing field between different players playing the same game.

Now the regs with the advantage like that but it is killing the game by killing and or deterring new players. It also facillitates cheating via data abuse.

The game is no longer fair and open, worse it makes getting new players and getting them to continue playing pretty unlikely. This destroys the whole poker economy. So no it is not about whether the s/w is available to YOU.

It's just that in this instance (SKIER_5)YOU dont think it is fair and open.
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Old 06-12-2015, 03:36 AM   #158
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Virtual machines, and things of that nature should be banned

You shouldn't be allowed to play on a virtual machine. That would remove one layer of obfuscation from the bots. We can't make it impossible, but if we stem the tide, that's something. So ban virtual machines when playing on Pokerstars, and **** it, if stove is banned just ban all the software. Get rid of it. Automation out, humans in.
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Old 06-12-2015, 03:41 AM   #159
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by DrawNone View Post
3rd party software controls your HU SnG lobbies PStars, and self-appointed cartels control who gets action from recreational players. you may want to take a closer look at that after you're done rewriting your T&Cs over skier's charts.

oh and don't forget the $4,000,000 in refunds you owe PLO players. that should also be on the to-do list.
Actually it also makes wonder that in the light of this problem, Stars comes now up with 3rd party software. I also wonder how a company which showed incapability in regards to preventing bots wants to effectively prevent people from using whatever software.
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Old 06-12-2015, 04:30 AM   #160
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I approve.
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Old 06-12-2015, 04:50 AM   #161
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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No, that might be your concern but the fundamental problem is that third party s/w has got too good, it creates a completely uneven playing field between different players playing the same game.

Now the regs with the advantage like that but it is killing the game by killing and or deterring new players. It also facillitates cheating via data abuse.

The game is no longer fair and open, worse it makes getting new players and getting them to continue playing pretty unlikely. This destroys the whole poker economy. So no it is not about whether the s/w is available to YOU.

It's just that in this instance (SKIER_5)YOU dont think it is fair and open.
If a golfer uses better clubs than his opponent is this unfair? If a football team has software to do a video analysis on their rivals (that they don't have) is this unfair?

I could go on but don't really need to. Your point seems to be that this software created an uneven playing field. My point is that is not the case given the fact this software is available to all at a relatively inexpensive cost. Anyone can use it
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Old 06-12-2015, 05:13 AM   #162
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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If a golfer uses better clubs than his opponent is this unfair? If a football team has software to do a video analysis on their rivals (that they don't have) is this unfair?
if a football player had battlefield info running on his lenses while playing would that be unfair? maybe. just don't expect to many amateurs stepping up to the felt.
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Old 06-12-2015, 05:13 AM   #163
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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If a golfer uses better clubs than his opponent is this unfair? If a football team has software to do a video analysis on their rivals (that they don't have) is this unfair?

I could go on but don't really need to. Your point seems to be that this software created an uneven playing field. My point is that is not the case given the fact this software is available to all at a relatively inexpensive cost. Anyone can use it
Comparing golf clubs is a a dumb example because every golfer has to use a golfclub and most pros use the same ones or ones the provide limited variance in results. Huds and bots are not used or accessible to all players. Most dont even know where to get bots. Its obvious any extra programs encourage people like you seem to be and exploiting the rules. Ban everything and enforce it. Let poker be played the way it was intended.

This isn't chess, this isn't golf. This is gambling. When I register for a game i'm wagering my money on myself to beat other "humans". Poker allows some players to purchase and use performance enhancements , drugs, steroids. And now not only that but they allow motorized bicycles to be used to race the Tour DE France. There is a reason bigger curves on hockey sticks are banned despite the nhl in a goal scoring crises. There is a reason why mlb bans corked bats despite baseball homeruns being so exciting. Because its cheating. I could go on.these leagues choose not to allow these enhancements even though it would create a more exciting product, which would make more money, they uphold the integrity of the game. Online poker commisioner has not. It's promoted things that make them top dollar at the expense of the rec players. Its become a monopoly, a sma upper class of rich and the rest poor. Online poker mirrors society
In any sport there is more expensive equipment that may enhance your game, but poker is not and should not be this. Its 2-9 players using there brain. Not falling asleep 24 tabling and allowing software to record information.

Last edited by bravadomacho; 06-12-2015 at 05:28 AM.
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Old 06-12-2015, 05:17 AM   #164
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Husker View Post
If a golfer uses better clubs than his opponent is this unfair? If a football team has software to do a video analysis on their rivals (that they don't have) is this unfair?

I could go on but don't really need to. Your point seems to be that this software created an uneven playing field. My point is that is not the case given the fact this software is available to all at a relatively inexpensive cost. Anyone can use it
Yes, there are very strict rules about club design, plus of course the number you can have in your bag.

As for analysis outside of the game, like video, nobody is proposing stopping that.

Availability does not mean a level playing field, especially when you add cheat data. In a level playing field game people have standardised, equal tools. Having the ability to buy advantage makes it an unfair playing field. Especially when the use of the tools is undisclosed and some unaware of them or their capabilities.
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Old 06-12-2015, 05:24 AM   #165
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Banning the listed programs is completely pointless. The only prohibited software Pokerstars should concern itself with right now are the colluding bots that are stealing millions from legitimate clients.
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Old 06-12-2015, 05:38 AM   #166
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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... but id like to see things like Odds oracle and pokerstove only banned while sitting at a table because I never close my Stars client (even if i dont play a hand for a week my client is still open at all times while my pc is on) and dont really want to have to close it every time i decide i want to run a sim.
If banning PokerStove then this, not while the client is running and displaying lobby only. And add detection of banned programs when opening a table, so we won't accidentally open a table while PokerStove or such is idling in the background.
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Old 06-12-2015, 05:39 AM   #167
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

http://youtu.be/d5upxYyeoQ8

Question: how big a problem is cheating.

Answer: steven winter, director of gaming integrity, pokerstars

"Well, it's not a big a problem as you'd imagine"

Spoiler:

Last edited by bravadomacho; 06-12-2015 at 05:49 AM.
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Old 06-12-2015, 05:56 AM   #168
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I'm with the group of people saying no third party software aids at all.

Whether it be seat scripting, HUDs, automated note takers, automate bet sizing even automated registration dialogues. Bring the game back to basic levels. I personally don't care about what this would do to high volume grinders although I have no actual distaste for them. If they can still generate the same volume without a software bundle that would be a decent months weave for much of the world population then more power to them.

I've used a bundle of stuff that I am in support of banning outright and still have the licenses to those products.

The game isn't fun, I don't want to have to use a HUD to compete, because the person I play against is going to know that I only shove the nuts on the river because an automated software aid shows him a ****ing spark graph showing that. In a Zoom game he just wouldn't know that was the case unless he put in hours of after hand work per session. Scrolling through hands he never saw the conclusion of.

Most of the other things just make the game robotic and truthfully, boring.
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Old 06-12-2015, 05:56 AM   #169
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

+1 for thread close
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Old 06-12-2015, 05:57 AM   #170
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Banning the listed programs is completely pointless. The only prohibited software Pokerstars should concern itself with right now are the colluding bots that are stealing millions from legitimate clients.
This. How can you ban a program like pokerstove which you can simply use on another pc where you dont you use stars?

Note Caddy is the only one I use out of that list but I'm quite sure the stats I use from it will not be affected by the changes. Will have to see how that plays out, but again so hard to enforce.

Also, why is Poker Snowy not been discussed? That is the worst out of the lot, ban ban ban!
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Old 06-12-2015, 06:25 AM   #171
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Interesting how this coincides perfectly with all the talk about bots. Obviously deal with the bots first ffs
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Old 06-12-2015, 06:32 AM   #172
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

HUD ban is not enforceable... so considerations about that:

- a new service will pop up grating you all the stats you want, maybe via browser
Well you could say: 'Let's ban the HHs then', the answer obv is a firm NO.
Many colluders will gain a huge edge and player cannot spot them (think about the PLO BOT scandal, without HHs it would be completely impossible to spot them

- since you can run a HUD on your 2nd computer, think how much edge is gaining the cheater and he's not going to be spotted

- are we really talking about HUD ban where BOT have stole millions? lol
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Old 06-12-2015, 06:44 AM   #173
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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HUD ban is not enforceable... so considerations about that:

- a new service will pop up grating you all the stats you want, maybe via browser
Well you could say: 'Let's ban the HHs then', the answer obv is a firm NO.
Many colluders will gain a huge edge and player cannot spot them (think about the PLO BOT scandal, without HHs it would be completely impossible to spot them

- since you can run a HUD on your 2nd computer, think how much edge is gaining the cheater and he's not going to be spotted

- are we really talking about HUD ban where BOT have stole millions? lol
HUDS have stole probably hundreds of millions from those players (myself included) who simply do not use them, or are unaware of them over the last decade.
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Old 06-12-2015, 06:51 AM   #174
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Clearly you don't see the point, that's ok
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Old 06-12-2015, 06:52 AM   #175
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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HUDS have stole probably hundreds of millions from those players (myself included) who simply do not, or are unaware of them.
Yes, you would be a big winner if there would be no HUDs. Nothing compares to a simple view of the world.

@Steve

Almost every time i have an issue which requires your support i get a follow-up survey about the quality of your support. So far i didn't receive a survey asking me about my opinion in regards to 3rd party software. I hope this is in work as in threads like these the most vocal group is and has always been the white knights of the anti HUD league. A change of ToS regarding 3rd party software shouldn't reflect what a minority (probably) wants but with what the biggest part of your customers would be ok.
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