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Old 06-24-2015, 08:21 AM   #1701
TimTamBiscuit
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by FR-Nit View Post
Using NC doesn't mean considering data-mining acceptable. There's a huge difference between extracting a maximum of information out of hands someone played himself and doing the same with data-mined hands. The first is for me a part of a competitive game, the second a blatant cheat.
+1, I really enjoy extracting the maximum info out of hands I've played myself. Not only with NC but I really extract every ounce of info out of Zoom hands I've folded. A lot of players reveal way too much by bizarre plays when they think no-one is watching except their remaining unfolded heads up opponent.
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Old 06-24-2015, 08:24 AM   #1702
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by FR-Nit View Post
Bots and data-mining are nothing but a nuisance for Stars. Both only hurt Stars' bottom-line when public attention gets focused on it. If Stars would only have dedicated 10% of the funds they have allocated for advertising to the implementation of effective counter-measures we probably wouldn't need to be concerned about bots or data-mining at all. Sadly hiring Christiano Ronaldo as poster-boy gives the quicker and bigger bang for the buck than investing money into the prevention of data-mining and the detection of bots.
Didn't bots kill backgammon and online chess? Pretty sure if people lose confidence that they are playing are human, that's the end of the game.
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Old 06-24-2015, 08:25 AM   #1703
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I like analysing my database as well. The problem with notecaddy is to do with the ingame help that it can provide.

Out of game analysis not only isn't cheating, but cannot be banned.
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Old 06-24-2015, 08:28 AM   #1704
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by TimTamBiscuit View Post
+1, I really enjoy extracting the maximum info out of hands I've played myself. Not only with NC but I really extract every ounce of info out of Zoom hands I've folded. A lot of players reveal way too much by bizarre plays when they think no-one is watching except their remaining unfolded heads up opponent.
Would you be happy to have pokerstars post to all online players the power of NC? eg timing tells, preflop charts and all? really surprised you have been SO against divisions for husngs yet you are using a cannon to kill an ant.
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Old 06-24-2015, 08:29 AM   #1705
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Didn't bots kill backgammon and online chess? Pretty sure if people lose confidence that they are playing are human, that's the end of the game.
Not sure about online, but bots killed backgammon way before it was played online. It was only a thing online on the back of the success of poker, and all sites eventually died a couple of years ago (I have played a few of these games- backgammon, gin rummy etc).

Recreational online chess still exists, but chess for money has never been a thing. It wasn't really in the nature of the game to gamble.

If there are indeed bots in poker then it would die for sure. It's inevitable when bots become better and more importantly faster.
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Old 06-24-2015, 08:34 AM   #1706
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

SpinWiz promotion video

At 47 seconds:
Quote:
SpinWiz has a list of all its users in the interface. As a default you will not be seated with other SpinWiz users.
Assuming:
1. SpinWiz users are regs.
2. Non-spinWiz are recreational players (recs).

Conclusion 1: SpinWiz provides a list of regs to all SpinWiz users, information about strength of player not available to individual users by virtue of their own play. Violation of Pokerstars Game Integrity.

Conclusion 2: SpinWiz by default seats regs with recreational players, avoiding other regs, information again about strength of player not available to a Reg by their own individual play.

Spinwiz users by default are not sat with other SpinWiz users
= regs will not be sat with regs
= regs will be sat with recs.


Note: Up to that point in the video SpinWiz provides useful functionality that permits a player to play a large number of games than permitted by the Pokersars interface. Such basic functionality is within Pokerstars Game Integrity rules. The advanced functionality advertised above violates those rules.
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Old 06-24-2015, 08:42 AM   #1707
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Respond to the points I made in post #1699 and 1700 pls.
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Old 06-24-2015, 08:44 AM   #1708
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

From what I understand- if pokerstars made spinwiz itself and the software was freely available to all- you wouldn't be against it?
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Old 06-24-2015, 08:45 AM   #1709
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by pies01 View Post
Would you be happy to have pokerstars post to all online players the power of NC?
I don't have any problem with that. The information extracted from playing hands against me someone may/should use to its fullest extent and if the conclusions out of this lead to a profit against me this profit is well deserved.
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Old 06-24-2015, 08:57 AM   #1710
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by watergun7 View Post
Players are technically chosen at random.
No, they are not chosen at random by SpinWiz. They are chosen according to a non-random algorithm that seeks to maximise the seating preferences of the SpinWiz user.

Quote:
What if I'm running a stable of players and do not want them to play with each other. Thus I make a program that crudely does what spinwiz does for MY stable only. Or even if I had say 5 players and tell them that they may only register every minute per 5min intervals. Should this practice be illegal?
I think this is OK but I need to think about it a bit more.

I think it is a violation of Pokerstars Game Integrity rules but an exception that should be permitted as the lesser of two evils: allowing your players to collude to not face each other so as to face weaker fields is the lesser evil compared with the appearance of collusion by having your stable in the same game with a conflict of interest created by a shared bankroll.

Quote:
I'm pretty sure pokerstars would welcome this, as I make sure that my players cannot collude. This is essentially what spinwiz does but on a bigger scale.
Bingo! The bigger scale is the problem because the players do not all know each other, have not all played each other, do not know from their own play that they are strong players that should be avoided.

The SpinWiz users are not universally part of the same staking stable at risk of incentive for collusion and needing to be separated to avoid the risk of appearance of collusion.

There is no anti-colluding justification for all SpinWiz users colluding to not play each other.

Ergo, they collude automatically based on information about player strength not otherwise available to them that has the effect of table selecting for in game advantage using information not available through their own play.

This is a violation of Pokerstars game integrity rules.
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Old 06-24-2015, 09:07 AM   #1711
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

If SpinWiz used a blind userlist so a new user was simply seated without avoiding all SpinWiz users by default and could only enter the names of players they wanted to avoid from their own play or in your example from the same staking stable that seems appropriate by Pokerstars game integrity rules.

But sharing the complete SpinWiz user list either within the tool or by Skype or by email or by any means and avoiding that list by default is the user name equivalent of scummy data mining because the new user is gaining info about player strength not obtained through their own play.

And that is a violation of Pokerstars Game Integrity rules.
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Old 06-24-2015, 09:15 AM   #1712
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

OK I finally see a good point against spinwiz.

I still disagree that a large scale version of the same thing is so different that it's against stars TOS.

It's obviously against spinwiz's business incentive to hide users so that they have to make their own mind up as to who to sit/not sit. Spinwiz facilitates the sharing of such information, but I don't think it's the fault of spinwiz that such culture exists in all of poker in general.
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Old 06-24-2015, 09:23 AM   #1713
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by watergun7 View Post
-There is waaaay less incentive to "collude" in spins compared to other sng formats (I'm surprised you don't get a heart attack thinking about 6max satelites and collusion possibilities).
I don't play 6-max SNGs. I don't want to play 6 max SNGs so I don't care about potential collusion in them. I play 6-max cash for profit. I want to play HUSNGs and Spin&Gos for fun but I'm not a fool so I won't play them until their game integrity is cleaned up.

I can't be bothered to calculate the financial rewards for collusion in Spin&Go's. I'm hoping someone else does it but intuitively:

1.Incentive does not have to be mathematically correct just "Gambler Fallacy" credible.

2. If one can close to breakeven on a shared bankroll on the 2x rewards then the big prizes become a freeroll in a lottery with some big prizes. Sounds like sufficient "Gambler's Fallacy" incentive to me, especially for gamblers looking to win big and simply avoid risk of ruin until they hit the big one. The casinos are full of players who think like that. Ergo, Spin&Go is probably already full of casino-type Gambler's trying to collude in this way.

3. Pokerstars needs a Zoom-like registration pool to minimise risk of collusion and to better target their scarce anti-colluding analysis resource.

Quote:
-Without ANY seating scripts you can force yourself to be seated with your friend if you reg a few spins together at the same time.
That's a good reason for a Zoom-like registration pooled interface and a good reason why Pokerstars should not have introduced the current Spin&Go interface in the first place.
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Old 06-24-2015, 09:27 AM   #1714
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by watergun7 View Post
I don't think it's the fault of spinwiz that such culture exists in all of poker in general.
Agreed, it is the fault of Pokerstars for not taking the trouble to properly understand what SpinWiz allows and for not outlawing such sharing, especially as I believe many players have emailed support about this for months and Pokerstars just doesn't get it. Pokerstars will pay eventually with dead fields just like happened with HUSNGs so I have to believe Pokerstars decsiions on SpinWiz are from ignorance not intent.

Last edited by TimTamBiscuit; 06-24-2015 at 09:53 AM.
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Old 06-24-2015, 09:42 AM   #1715
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Would you be happy to have pokerstars post to all online players the power of NC? eg timing tells, preflop charts and all? really surprised you have been SO against divisions for husngs yet you are using a cannon to kill an ant.
I have no problems with all users knowing about NC. I owned NC for years before I started using it. The first 6 months after I finally looked at it I admit I really only got confused by it. I believe most NC owners don't use it at all or use it incorrectly costing themselves money. I considered the NC add-ons but rejected them because I thought I could build one that better fitted with my own thought processes. I use NC completely differently to how I've seen anyone else use it. I think my HUD is quite simple and clean. NC-augmented HUD videos I've seen are a confusing kaleidoscope of weird images I'd take ages to try to master and I think they would just confuse me and cost me money.

But I am talking about using NC for cash games in Zoom player pools. I firmly believe these games need a lot of skill to properly interpret HUDs/NC and apply the info wisely.

I don't use a HUD let alone NC when I play SNGs or Spin&Go's cos I'm playing for fun so I have no idea what HUDs or NC offer for pre-flop shoving charts etc. I've seen in HM2 the existence of Nash Charts but never bothered looking at them.

I can imagine how I could customise NC for killer SNG advantage equivalent to Skier's software after doing a lot of work in CREV or GTORB or whatever to refine pre-flop shoving ranges for different stack sizes. If I was gifted Skier's charts I'm sure I could make a killer NC augmented HUD.

But this is the fault of the underlying game IMO. That is, HUSNGs with short stacks and rapidly rising blinds are close to being theoretically solved (Will Tipton's HU books for theory and Claudico AI advances suggest 1 -3 years and they are solved). NC is just good at automating that solution.

Such automatic play to me is boring. I play HUSNGs and Spin&Go's for fun but also to try to improve my HU intuition to improve my 6-max play. Actively using pre-flop shoving charts might help my HUSNG winrate (lossrate which I don't even bother to record) but it would defeat my twin purpose of fun + improving my 100BB 6-max skills with better intuitive HU aggression.

The horizon for theoretical solution in 6-max Zoom cash I think is much further away.

Last edited by TimTamBiscuit; 06-24-2015 at 09:50 AM.
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Old 06-24-2015, 10:03 AM   #1716
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Some of the software mentioned is

PUBLIC + has comercial SITES + it appears in countless youtube VIDEOS etcetc

also its known by hundreds of people , its in hundreds of foruns if people dont use it
its because they dont care , they dont want to invest time in learning it

Its just hilarious someone coming to 2+2 and finding out OH WHAT IS THIS ???

So u have hundreds of posts in 2+2 with software programs , hundreds of threads discussing openly the software programs

Now that pokerstars make this thread , i see people with more posts than me at 2+2
getting a REAL SURPRISE when the forum is flooded with info about everything
obv they already knew but didnt care and now without actually doing the work themselves of READING and ASKING they just say

WE ARE VICTIMS , WE ARE BEING CHASED , OH MY GOD THIS IS WHY I LOSE

HILARIOUS.


-----

Only people who actually KNOW what programs do and do not can form an opinion credible if we dont have some indepth knowledge obv our opinions will have serious flaws.
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Old 06-24-2015, 10:11 AM   #1717
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJuliusDhelas View Post
Some of the software mentioned is

PUBLIC + has comercial SITES + it appears in countless youtube VIDEOS etcetc

also its known by hundreds of people , its in hundreds of foruns if people dont use it
its because they dont care , they dont want to invest time in learning it

Its just hilarious someone coming to 2+2 and finding out OH WHAT IS THIS ???

So u have hundreds of posts in 2+2 with software programs , hundreds of threads discussing openly the software programs

Now that pokerstars make this thread , i see people with more posts than me at 2+2
getting a REAL SURPRISE when the forum is flooded with info about everything
obv they already knew but didnt care and now without actually doing the work themselves of READING and ASKING they just say

WE ARE VICTIMS , WE ARE BEING CHASED , OH MY GOD THIS IS WHY I LOSE

HILARIOUS.


-----

Only people who actually KNOW what programs do and do not can form an opinion credible if we dont have some indepth knowledge obv our opinions will have serious flaws.
And yet your post contains generalisations, speculation and hyperbole.
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Old 06-24-2015, 10:17 AM   #1718
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

http://www.notecaddyprotools.com/helpNC



you don't need to look far to see that every notecaddy tool is based off datamining. Dbags like fr-nit saying datamining is illegal and frowned upon is complete bull****. Half his stats don't work unless you've played 400 hrs with the player or bought datamines.

Just put them on ignore and let them talk alone. These guys can't beat poker and they'll try anything to keep their program in the white list.

Last edited by MX210; 06-24-2015 at 10:22 AM.
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Old 06-24-2015, 10:24 AM   #1719
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Tim having read ur augmented posts I understand where you are coming from. I think it was a mistake for you to originally group things like cartels, spinwiz along with the rest of the problems like data mining, although it could be just that there were so many uninformed voices that made it appear that way.

Also aside- some advice- I don't think spin and goes/hu hypers will help you in 6max cash as the game is vastly different shallow. Maybe if you grind 6max cap or something it will be useful.
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Old 06-24-2015, 10:25 AM   #1720
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by watergun7 View Post
without spinwiz the problems with collusion will increase dramatically (prob the reason pokerstars allows it as they can ban it easily).


Quote:
Originally Posted by watergun7 View Post
There is waaaay less incentive to "collude" in spins compared to other sng formats (I'm surprised you don't get a heart attack thinking about 6max satelites and collusion possibilities).
Pick-pocketing isn't as bad as armed robbery but that doesn't mean it should be allowed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PS T&C
5.4 COLLUSION. Collusion between Users by sharing hole cards or by any other methods is strictly forbidden.
Arranging to sit together with a particular other player (+ a fish) on "random seating" tables is a form of collusion. PS can, and should, stop this by, e.g., putting in a small delay to spin seating. The reasonable expectation of the user is that the seating is truly random in the normal sense of the word. If PS want to keep the system then they should change the registration screen to either: (a) offer everone the option of sitting with someone else; or (b) add a warning that others may do so which creates a rsisk that your 2 opponents may collude against you during game play. Alternatively, drop the pretence that seating is random and allow normal seating (but ban seating scripts etc first!!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MX210 View Post
Just put them on ignore and let them talk alone. These guys can't beat poker and they'll try anything to keep their program in the white list.
+1 to your sentiment but imo its better to let their absurd and selfish position be highlighted itt.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJuliusDhelas View Post
Its just hilarious someone coming to 2+2 and finding out OH WHAT IS THIS ???
You might find this hard to believe but some players just want to play poker and haven't spent hours searching for all the clever angles in using the ever-growing masses of software tools to collude and tilt the playing field in all sorts of devious ways.

Last edited by raidalot; 06-24-2015 at 10:49 AM.
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Old 06-24-2015, 10:34 AM   #1721
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by MX210 View Post
http://www.notecaddyprotools.com/helpNC



you don't need to look far to see that every notecaddy tool is based off datamining. Dbags like fr-nit saying datamining is illegal and frowned upon is complete bull****. Half his stats don't work unless you've played 400 hrs with the player or bought datamines.

Just put them on ignore and let them talk alone. These guys can't beat poker and they'll try anything to keep their program in the white list.
What do you know about my stats? Correct, nothing. Btw, what makes you so bitter about life?
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Old 06-24-2015, 10:38 AM   #1722
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

btw, i got an infraction for berating watermelon7. a minor one and not that it matters much. still i am convinced a 100% that public berating and shaming these cheaters is the absolute right thing to do.
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Old 06-24-2015, 10:39 AM   #1723
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by MX210 View Post
you don't need to look far to see that every notecaddy tool is based off datamining. Dbags like fr-nit saying datamining is illegal and frowned upon is complete bull****. Half his stats don't work unless you've played 400 hrs with the player or bought datamines.

Just put them on ignore and let them talk alone. These guys can't beat poker and they'll try anything to keep their program in the white list.
You ask for NC being banned because there is people datamining?
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Old 06-24-2015, 10:41 AM   #1724
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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You ask for NC being banned because there is people datamining?
we ask for NC getting banned because its very purpose is datamining.
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Old 06-24-2015, 10:42 AM   #1725
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I urge everyone to just block these guys, as seen here he's trying to bait me into deviating from the fact that his HUD does not work without datamines. I personally tried it and having played in a small player pool for over 100k hand still wasn't enough to get most stats to work.
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