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Old 06-11-2015, 07:33 PM   #126
1up
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by kgbking View Post
so you are allowed to use charts that arent for specific depths... ?

i dont really understand what kind of chart they are talking about ? a chart that is for a general depth is the most useless thing i have ever heard of


can we be more clear on the difference here
Those would be "general starting hand charts" for beginners. Certainly not useless, and probably the reason the charts are allowed to begin with (to help new players).
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Old 06-11-2015, 07:35 PM   #127
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Rant View Post
See 'Holy Grail of Poker' for an example of this type of thing.
wow didnt know this existed.. sick

ya that def should be banned imo. pretty amazing software tho
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Old 06-11-2015, 07:37 PM   #128
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Those would be "general starting hand charts" for beginners. Certainly not useless, and probably the reason the charts are allowed to begin with (to help new players).
ok ya sorry, that was an overstatement. but useless for any regular i think would be accurate. so this rule would basically be banning regulars from using preflop charts then
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Old 06-11-2015, 07:52 PM   #129
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Yes, fine, rec players need to be attracted but it doesn't need to be a situation wherein the goal is to reduce their loss rate (one of Stars' promos at the moment includes winning a hand with 72). HUDs are poker. Online poker is different from live poker, but it doesn't make it any less 'poker', and nor does the use of a HUD, which, if anything, adds an element of skill in statistical interpretation.
Anyone who cheats has a skill over who they are cheating against.

Is it just me or did Pokerstars Steve adress NOTHING regarding the actual use of bots, detecting them, explaining why it was not caught after over a year and how they can assure me ( I will not be convinced now no matter what rhetoric is spewed) how this will be prevented in the future

You cannot trust any aspect of Pokerstars anymore. NONE

BTW Pokerstars Steve, read my thread I just made and explain to me how I was able to log in to my phone while logged in to my desktop. Thanks
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Old 06-11-2015, 08:00 PM   #130
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

POKERSTARS STEVE

I don;t care what future programs you claim are banned. I don;t trust the competence of your security to enforce this to anything close to an adequate level of ensuring fairness. Bots are suppose to be outlawed and look.

Pokerstars Steve

I would like to know why this occurred for over a year when you claim to have sophisticated detection systems. "state of the art" and "leading technologies" and yet this occurs

Pokerstars Steve. Many friends of mine play PLO at this stake and have for this time that the bots have been allowed. Are yo going to do a full review of each and every pot played against each and every player and refund every penny lost to a bot, not only that but refund each and every rake given under the assumption they were playing against another human when in fact we see it wasn't.?
What happened to allk the money generated by bots and the 1.5 million dollars allegedly won by the bots as per Poker News reporting. Is that money given back to the innocent, honest players that you were not able to protect due to your securities incompetence.
Thanks
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Old 06-11-2015, 08:36 PM   #131
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I would be more than happy if all software was banned while playing, anything to keep online poker going as long as possible.
A simple built in Stars hud which everyone had access to would also be OK, but the purest way to do things is ban everything.
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Old 06-11-2015, 08:37 PM   #132
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

jeanchris with more very good suggestions.
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Old 06-11-2015, 08:44 PM   #133
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Hi Pokerstars Steve
WE NEED MORE THAN 10 DAYS TO DISCUSS THIS ISSUE
Don't U know thats its WSOP TIME & this thread also need to go into NVG also. ty

+1 to the discussions
And to the young 1s here if ya want to get back to the winrates(or near to) of 2005-07 then most if not all S/W tools need to go.
P.S can then advertize this=More Rec's coming to poker=More Dead $ & if PS gets back into US & has fantasy sports/unsegregated pools etc = even more dead $
Just think about the up-side to banning s/w (if it can be done)ffs even micro stakes rec's/reg's use s/w.
I also agree that datamining has to go. If that means That u can't rail tables anymore so be it.

GL in You're Tours
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Old 06-11-2015, 08:46 PM   #134
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Hi Pokerstars Steve
WE NEED MORE THAN 10 DAYS TO DISCUSS THIS ISSUE
Don't U know thats its WSOP TIME & this thread also need to go into NVG also. ty

+1 to the discussions
And to the young 1s here if ya want to get back to the winrates(or near to) of 2005-07 then most if not all S/W tools need to go.
P.S can then advertize this=More Rec's coming to poker=More Dead $ & if PS gets back into US & has fantasy sports/unsegregated pools etc = even more dead $
Just think about the up-side to banning s/w (if it can be done)ffs even micro stakes rec's/reg's use s/w.
I also agree that datamining has to go. If that means That u can't rail tables anymore so be it.

GL in You're Tours
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Old 06-11-2015, 09:02 PM   #135
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

id like to have ps ban as much software as possible

but whatever they do end up allowing i think they should make a list and it should all be publicly available including seating scripts or voice activated chart software or w/e and have it posted front and center on their website so all players know what is allowed and what is not and when recs go to dl the software they will also see what pros will be using against them...

the 2 computer thing i understand but when ppl say just allow everything including bots bc i have 2 computers and im just gonna cheat anyway is the wrong way to get online poker healthy and fun again for recs and pros
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Old 06-11-2015, 09:08 PM   #136
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

has there been any talk of seat scripts by pokerstars ?
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Old 06-11-2015, 09:14 PM   #137
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by bravadomacho View Post
.
Mate, not many of us are big fans of Stars at the moment but you've been around less than a month and you're already the biggest tard on 2p2
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Old 06-11-2015, 10:36 PM   #138
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

When online poker first came out over a decade ago its essence was to recreate the atmosphere and joy of playing live poker through the comfort of your own home.
I ask why should there be a distinction in the ruling between live and online ?
Amaya is basiclly an online casino so by all means treat us like customers who walk into ur own establishment.

When i go play live poker what am i allowed to use while sitting on the table ? NOTHING but my own brain.
Rules can slightly differ from one place to another but on a general note ; no smartphones, no tablets, no charts, no poker books, NOTHING.
1st offense is a warning, Your hand is automaticly mucked and/or booted from the poker room on 2nd offense.
You want to keep up with frenquencies, betting patern, etc ? use your own brain, casino wont provide you a HUD or stats on the players.
I remember playing @ WSOP vegas and this person had brought his pen and notepad with him and was literally taking notes the whole time (while playing and in between hands)
at some point the table called the floor cause he was slowing down the whole action and they ruled "not allowed to take notes or consult notepad while hand in process"

if you try to set boundaries its human nature to try and push them to the limit.
people always find a way to angleshot the system specially when whats permitted/prohibited isnt black and white.
For the sake of online poker and its future i beg you BAN EVERY 3rd party software, not some of it, not half of it, EVERYTHING !!
No room for misinterpretation and loopholes.
Give poker its true colors and purest form back like its meant to be.
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Old 06-11-2015, 10:52 PM   #139
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Pokerstars should release its own ptr with a 24 hrs delay with original screennames and permit alias change up to 3 times a day, ban whotf.ru
Also limit # of tables..

Everybody has access, no colution no bots or bot like players, use Huds if you want
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Old 06-11-2015, 10:55 PM   #140
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Why would stars want to limit number of tables? (under the limit that would cause people to constantly timeout etc and therefore drastically reducing the hands per hour)
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Old 06-11-2015, 11:00 PM   #141
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by bravadomacho View Post
Anyone who cheats has a skill over who they are cheating against.

Is it just me or did Pokerstars Steve adress NOTHING regarding the actual use of bots, detecting them, explaining why it was not caught after over a year and how they can assure me ( I will not be convinced now no matter what rhetoric is spewed) how this will be prevented in the future

You cannot trust any aspect of Pokerstars anymore. NONE

BTW Pokerstars Steve, read my thread I just made and explain to me how I was able to log in to my phone while logged in to my desktop. Thanks
+1 to banning all software

Pokerstars is still allowing some of the PLO bots to operate right now lol showing complete incompetence regarding there security department to detecting and stopping bots.

also been wondering about why I have been able to log in on my mobile device and play while I was logged into my desktop at the same time??
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Old 06-11-2015, 11:05 PM   #142
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by kgbking View Post
has there been any talk of seat scripts by pokerstars ?
The day seatscripts are ban it's because all the other softwares are gone.

There is no point talking about scripts, we have to talk about software's in general... they will be illegal when hud's, table ninja, note caddy table scanner etc etc are also illegal.

I am not 100% sure, but i'm pretty sure i saw many time pokerstars staff saying in other discussion they cannot ban script because they would have to make illegal other software's that are being currently use by most of the players.
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Old 06-11-2015, 11:30 PM   #143
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

+1 ban all software
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Old 06-11-2015, 11:39 PM   #144
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Big +1, notecaddy and co have to be banned.
Would be great if all Software like seatscripts and tablefinder would be banned also
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Old 06-12-2015, 12:01 AM   #145
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Tuff **** imo. And people, please stop throwing out the argument that 'omg, if you ban our cheating software it will allow one or two Russian wizzkids botters to have unfair advantages over the rest of us'
(and yes, having an unfair advantage over other players in a competitive game IS CHEATING)

Fact is anybody signing up in 2015 will only be made aware of these huds by coming to 2+2 or P5's etc. tens of thousands, probably alot more that play for years probably still dont know they are being exploited.
Hell, even I came to learn of huds only in 2012 after visiting a casino and bragging about my first biggest win. A player who is a well known stars reg doubted me because I told him I never heard of such softwares.
I still dont use them and I think they have destroyed the game.

I will come back to Pokerstars full time if and when this new change is implemented.

Would imagine sites would be thrilled to see some people thinking bots are no big deal in the grand scheme of things, compared to HUDs - to the extent that the discussion veers off into a conversation about HUDs rather than bots

One thing that maybe differentiates HUDs from bots is their availability to the public? There's even a couple available for free these days - and the ones that cost money oftentimes offer licenses for free if you sign up to try out new sites and put in a certain amount of volume.

It doesn't seem like PS will ever ban HUDs because regs who multi-table must make up the bulk of their revenue? Maybe one day they might offer HUD free tables or something like that though?

In an ideal world, it'd be nice to see PS offer theft protection to consumers, the way credit cards do (with full reimbursement of losses versus illegal bots, etc). Guess I see player protection (and trust in the site) as the larger issue.

PS. The only software I use from the list is PT4, which has a Leak Tracker feature, but I don't ever use it - have heard other people find it helpful though, so maybe other people might feel differently about it


Last edited by TrustySam; 06-12-2015 at 12:08 AM.
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Old 06-12-2015, 12:03 AM   #146
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I think you should ban most software.

I encourage you to reassess "3. Tools and services that profile your opponents, but make use of only information which you have accumulated through your own play." That the data is accumulated only through one's own play does not make it fair.

Most HUDs make use of information accumulated only through one's own play, but such information is far from simply "raw data." It isn't just a handy way to keep track of your opponents a little bit better. It actually provides extensive derivative information that no one could ever mentally compile that helps predict and exploit opponent behavior - what's his fold to steal %? how many times does this guy c/r c-bets? how often does he win at showdown? after he c-bets, does he fire a 2nd barrel, does he fire a 3rd? how often does he open from UTG and then fold to a 3-bet?

On the other hand, I would not ban a program like Pokerstove. What makes Pokerstove special is that it requires user input to generate an output, and if a user puts junk in (an incorrect range), he will get junk out (an inaccurate equity calculation). Pokerstove doesn't provide a special advantage - it's just a calculator. In that way, Pokerstove is very much unlike a HUD, which collects its own data and displays it in advantageous ways. Pokerstove is also free, which ought to be a consideration - users shouldn't have to pay money to benefit from software.

If you're unsure of what to ban or keep, I would encourage you to consider the optics of the situation. How do you think it would look if people (users, journalists, politicians, competitors, regulators) started to believe that a subset of players are using approved software from for-profit third-party vendors to gain an edge? That might not pass the sniff test. Now is an excellent time to reassess your policies, and thanks for doing it.
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Old 06-12-2015, 12:21 AM   #147
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I dont know how pokerstars would be able to make sure those programs arent running. And theres gonna be new ones. So everyone gives stars the right to their computer or something?
Would be nice that there would be no programs except the mainstream tracker huds, including sharky's etc, get em all out.
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Old 06-12-2015, 12:46 AM   #148
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

yeh whats actually happening with seating scripts? im sure we was all told that changes will be made to the way normal tables work with potentially having a global waitlist etc. Have you just given up on all this now?
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Old 06-12-2015, 12:47 AM   #149
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Exclamation Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by bravadomacho View Post
POKERSTARS STEVE

I don;t care what future programs you claim are banned. I don;t trust the competence of your security to enforce this to anything close to an adequate level of ensuring fairness. Bots are suppose to be outlawed and look.

Pokerstars Steve

I would like to know why this occurred for over a year when you claim to have sophisticated detection systems. "state of the art" and "leading technologies" and yet this occurs

Pokerstars Steve. Many friends of mine play PLO at this stake and have for this time that the bots have been allowed. Are yo going to do a full review of each and every pot played against each and every player and refund every penny lost to a bot, not only that but refund each and every rake given under the assumption they were playing against another human when in fact we see it wasn't.?
What happened to allk the money generated by bots and the 1.5 million dollars allegedly won by the bots as per Poker News reporting. Is that money given back to the innocent, honest players that you were not able to protect due to your securities incompetence.
Thanks
Please keep the discussion on topic & post in relevant threads for you're OTHER issues. thanks
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Old 06-12-2015, 12:50 AM   #150
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

This message is confusing. It seems to suggest that some of these bots are legal in Stars opinion, and now due to a huge flare up, they've decided to make them illegal now. If that's not the case, then this is some sort of distraction tactic to change the focus of the community from the bots, to this change. I don't know, Pokerstars has always impressed me after I come to some ****ty conclusions about them, so perhaps they'll surprise me once again.

We need a direct response about bots, this is not that. I second the opinion that we shouldn't have huds, but that seems really hard to police. Pokerstove should be an exception to the other programs, though I can see why as a company you guys would want to make the rules across the board. As some botter could make a bot that acted rather similar to stove. Either way, I hope Pokerstars takes this as seriously as it should be taken, because if everyone knows that bots are infesting your site, which they will in the next few years, recreational players aren't going to play on the site, regs will be turned off the site, and games will get harder and the overall playerbase will shrink rather rapidly.

Regs already talk about this stuff when you're playing live poker, but it's generally anecdotal, without a serious response that gives people confidence that Stars is capable of policing bots, everything is going to go to ****.
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