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Old 06-20-2015, 10:56 PM   #1426
pies01
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by mme View Post
then, you lying piece of cartel s**t show us prove that sharkystrator is indeed run by some unknown and not by the cartel.
Really disrespectfully put.
Not sure what point you're trying to make.
There were 3 steps
1) some random person created sharkystrator that meant anyone who bought the software ("who could chew gum") could wait in a line to play recreational players
2) the lines became ridiculously large and full of weak regs
3) people decided that step 2 was killing the games so to make it more dynamic and profitable, "divisions/cartels" we're created. This meant that there were a LOT of reg vs reg battles while people worked out the true pecking order

So sharky led to the situation, divisions and cartels helped clean it up (even though it was a pretty ugly process where plenty of well respected regs have been kicked out in the meantime).

That's why I said before that people talking about cartels for HUSNGs in the economic sense are really missing the point and funnily enough, a lot of the ongoing noise in this area was/is created by the weak regs who were kicked out because they weren't good enough.
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Old 06-20-2015, 11:10 PM   #1427
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by 4-Star General View Post
Time's up.
Time isn't up yet - by my count there's 13 hours from this post until 10 days pass.

Saying that, I guess I should try to put an on-topic post before the limit expires.

Steve, I implore you and your team if revisiting the written rules on software, to do so very carefully and precisely. As others have mentioned, please keep at the forefront of any decisions made the enforceability of rules made.

People have posted silly examples - "why make murder illegal if it doesn't prevent all murders? lolololol". Reason is, it stops some, even quite a lot of potential murders. And any murder prevented is a great success for society. That isn't the case in a competitive game played for real money on the internet. The aim here should be a level playing field for all participants to the greatest extent possible. To that end, very clear and enforceable rules are paramount. Not ideal world dreams. Vague rules do not a level playing field make.

Sidenote - "unfair advantage" has been bandied about in this thread in a ridiculous manner, in almost all cases where it does not apply. Notecaddy for the prime example. To a skilled user, maybe even an unskilled user - Notecaddy provides an advantage, absolutely. Notecaddy is allowed. It's advantage is not "unfair". Anyone can use it, if they wish. If they don't want to spend the money, they can make their own alternative. It's features and methods are well known, and even if they weren't the PokerStars software rules would allow you to program a similar software from scratch if you so desire. This should always be your right, and ideally Richas would realize the error of his logic and stop trying to take it away from you.

Anyhow, I have tried to explain why a software written in compliance with clear rules outlining what you may and may not do as a player or programmer de facto cannot provide an unfair advantage, even if a particular software is not available to the public (as some people who should know better have argued against), or even if it is available just not at a price point you deem within budget.

Where this falls down is when the rules are vague and unclear, or not public. This encourages people to push the grey area, or not depending on their attitude/greed. Some may submit to Stars for evaluation and somehow, despite anyone in their right mind thinking it can't possibly get the green light, it does (e.g. Sharkystrator / Seating Scripts in general).

As an example of vague rules, we can look at some posted in the OP.

4. The practice of datamining (observing games without playing in order to build up a database of hand histories for future reference) is prohibited.

Datamining has been mentioned a lot in this thread. This rule defines "datamining", as it applies to PokerStars. Some issues:

- Observing games without playing in order to build up a database for sale ? presumably fine, if you don't ever use it for reference.

- Building up a database of hand histories for future reference, except not by "observing games without playing"? for example, by purchasing them. Also fine?

- Observing games and saving the hand histories, using them for future reference somehow so long as it doesn't involve a database? for example, searching and parsing them on the spot? Acceptable?

- Studying / Sharing population tendencies (summarised results, specifically not actual hand histories) from databases compiled from played hands. Fine?

- Studying / Sharing population tendencies (summarised results, specifically not actual hand histories) from databases compiled from observed hands. Fine?


These examples are contrived, of course. Point being, the rules are not precise. They clearly define one scenario which is not allowed. Well, they could be precise, if the scenario defined is the only scenario banned. That's more than likely not the case. A reasonable person would probably think no matter the source of your hand histories, using them to power a HUD while you're playing is a breach, while telling a coach "the average fold to cbet in my database is 38%" is not a breach. But who knows, except Stars themselves.

Still on this topic, the other side of the coin is enforcement. By far the biggest issue to me, is that datamining on Stars is absurdly easy. Try it! you will need a) PokerStars, b) Windows notepad. Simply open Stars, don't log in, observe a table. Click Ctrl+i for the instant hand history viewer, and copy/paste to notepad to your heart's desire.

It's basically like leaving a pile of sweets / candy in a schoolyard and telling the (anonymous!) kids not to touch it. Why this functionality exists for not-logged-in viewers still exists, I can only speculate. Interestingly it's a special version of the hand history, that conceals mucked hands at showdown - unlike those you'd get while playing. It's been something like 8 years since datamining became commonly not-allowed. It's still fine on some small sites I should imagine. If PokerStars really wanted datamining gone, here's the low hanging fruit.


So yeah, enforcement and all that. Don't make rules you either don't want to enforce or are unable to enforce, please. That there is where an advantage becomes unfair.

It would imo be better for fairness if people knew any hand they play on PokerStars is viewable by the public, and someone is probably watching and taking notes. Funny enough, that's pretty close to the "like live poker in a casino" experience many seem to want.

While I still have not seen first-hand and do not know the actual extent of "Skier_5 hyper helper", from what I understand it is a completely unenforceable ban that would lead to many an unfair advantage.

I'm sure many are familiar with ring binders from their school / office days. Products like this exist, and are cheap:

Print out 50x A4 charts, put them in a binder on your desk and you can access them probably quicker than Skier_5 can speak "23 big blinds in the SB, villain is a reg". It is certainly not a good for fairness if people are led to believe nobody uses such tools (a ring binder). It's likely not good for player retention when they inevitably find out they're the only ones "playing by the rules".

Trying to outlaw things like "a virtual ring binder" suffers a similar problem - it's trivial to run on another PC, a phone, a tablet. Yes, you will stop most people running it on the same PC as their PokerStars client. If the fallback is "just use a real life ring binder", which obviously would be insane to ban / police - what's the point in trying to outlaw it on the PC?

On this particular issue, the line should be drawn imo exactly where I believe it to be now - you can have lookup data on your PC as much as you want. What you cannot do, is have a software process the logs / HH / screen scrape etc. in order to automatically bring up the appropriate page / section of the page / highlight recommended action without your intervention.


Sorry for huge post. Not thought enough about it, time limit fast approaching.
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Old 06-20-2015, 11:26 PM   #1428
fish_but_lucky
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Why do people against softwares put them all in the same bag? Some are cheating and others are not.

Softwares that tells you how opponents have played in the past are totally ok: Poker is a game where you have to adapt to how your opponent is playing and online its dfficult to remember that cause all you have is a screenname(live you can see the face etc so its easier to remember people and how they play) and you play vs a lot more different players. But any software that help you interpret previous hands/stats(or any other part of the game) ,make decisions or calculate for you are bad and should not be allowed.
Take a player with given tendencies and stats at a certain tables, other players are not going to play the exact same way vs this player cause they interpret those stats differently. You won't turn a losing player into a winning one just by giving him nc or a hud but it's true that those helps.

So the question should not be "does this software gives you aid that others might not have?" but "does the aid that the software gives you is fair or not?" and that's what the concern is cause stars think skier's programm was unfair but was allowed by the rules. They didnt want to change the rules to make the game "healthier" or "save poker from his decline". In order to achieve such goals they'd rather invent/introduce new games like spin and goes(wich i think was a smart thing to do)
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Old 06-20-2015, 11:46 PM   #1429
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Fantastic post by _dave_
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Old 06-21-2015, 12:02 AM   #1430
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by _dave_ View Post

Sorry for huge post. Not thought enough about it, time limit fast approaching.
Just when I lose hope in this thread we get a quality post like that. Thanks for sharing Dave.
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Old 06-21-2015, 12:36 AM   #1431
AJackson
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by _dave_ View Post
The aim here should be a level playing field for all participants to the greatest extent possible. To that end, very clear and enforceable rules are paramount. Not ideal world dreams. Vague rules do not a level playing field make.
Great post _dave_.

The bolded sentence sums up the debate very well.
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Old 06-21-2015, 12:54 AM   #1432
cneuy3
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by fish_but_lucky View Post
So the question should not be "does this software gives you aid that others might not have?" but "does the aid that the software gives you is fair or not?" and that's what the concern is cause stars think skier's programm was unfair but was allowed by the rules. They didnt want to change the rules to make the game "healthier" or "save poker from his decline". In order to achieve such goals they'd rather invent/introduce new games like spin and goes(wich i think was a smart thing to do)
Here in lies the problem with the bolded part. PokerStars cannot call out Skier's program as giving any more of an unfair advantage than a HuD can give an unfair advantage against someone without one. How are they going to spin that when they come back here and amend the rules? How can they argue that a HuD gives someone less advantage than his program?

Lets also mention they cannot enforce bans on his program but they can enforce and stop HuDs, seating scripts, data mining and other predatory methods used on Stars.

I applaud Skier for keeping his program/charts off the public market. If not for that we would probably not even be having this thread and debate. More people would just be using them and the current system would roll on without change.
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Old 06-21-2015, 01:53 AM   #1433
heathen1
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Just make all software against t&S, problem solved, if you get caught, you get banned, and have the money confiscated.
You people are making things way to complicated.
Let's be honest here, stars is a billion $ company,they couldn't careless what people suggest itt, they are gonna do what they are gonna do regardless of this thread.

Last edited by heathen1; 06-21-2015 at 01:59 AM.
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Old 06-21-2015, 04:58 AM   #1434
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by _dave_ View Post
cut
lol you are right, I didn't consider my time zone .
I was waiting for your post, and obv it was a really good one
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Old 06-21-2015, 05:00 AM   #1435
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by _dave_ View Post
The aim here should be a level playing field for all participants to the greatest extent possible.
Your aim, which I share, is achieved by every player having the same in-game info on their screen. i.e. all allowable info/data/software built into the client, everything else banned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by _dave_ View Post
"unfair advantage" has been bandied about in this thread in a ridiculous manner, in almost all cases where it does not apply. Notecaddy for the prime example. To a skilled user, maybe even an unskilled user - Notecaddy provides an advantage, absolutely. Notecaddy is allowed. It's advantage is not "unfair". Anyone can use it, if they wish. If they don't want to spend the money, they can make their own alternative. It's features and methods are well known, and even if they weren't the PokerStars software rules would allow you to program a similar software from scratch if you so desire. This should always be your right,
I disagree with your perception of fairness here. That's partly because I disagree with some of your assumptions. I agree that NC provides an advantage, but don't agree:

- that NC is well known among new players (and to be considered "fair" it would have to be known and accessible to every player); or
- that "If they [new players] don't want to spend the money, they can make their own alternative" - this is absurdly impractical

You say you want a "level playing field", but compare these 3 players:

Player A: reg who plays every day and uses NC/HUDs etc

Player B: informed rec who just wants to play a bit of poker online one night a week, perhaps one-tabling at micro-stakes

Player C: casual new poker player who has played a few times with his friends and watched a bit on TV and now wants to try his skills online. He doesn't know HUDs etc exist.

It's not economic for Player B to buy the software because he doesn't play enough. However, he is forced to compete with players who have it (and we both agree it provides an advantage).

Player C can't get NC/HUD, even if economic, because he doesn't know it exists. Even if he found out, he won't use them because he just wants to play poker and is not interested in, or not skilled at, setting up stats, badges, heat maps, exploitation charts etc. Despite not knowing they exist, he is also dropped into an environment where his opponents use them against him.

If A, B and C sit down to play at a live table, do you think that the game is as fair as it could be? What about if they sit down at an online table?

If your objective is fairness/level playing field then presumably you would have no objection to all permitted tools being provided within the client or for each new player to be clearly warned that NC/HUDs/seating scripts (and other tools which provide an advantage) are available and many of his opponents use them?

Last edited by raidalot; 06-21-2015 at 05:09 AM.
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Old 06-21-2015, 05:08 AM   #1436
weaktightreg
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

datamining + notecaddy = superpowerfull for losing monkeys who use them

if datamining cannot be stopped then notecaddy has to get banned . simple as that
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Old 06-21-2015, 05:19 AM   #1437
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Imo we should keep only software providing stats from our own experience (I mean datamining should be banned).

Then player can develop skills to be able to read his opponents with the time.

For the rest, automatic notes, live calculators, live analyser, etc should be banned during the game.

Tools like PokerStove, HRC, SHG Wizard, etc... are wonderful for players want to learn out of the tables not during the session.

The tracker is there to point hands and then the player is able to take them back and work on it.

For the rest, the decision should be take by the user using his own skills (acuumulated until there).

I think playing like that (and that's what I do from the beginning) is fair and smart.
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Old 06-21-2015, 06:09 AM   #1438
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4-Star General View Post
Time's up.
Now a new question, is PS going to post today or it will takes a month like the last meeting report?
they'll probably delay things and claim they meant 10 business days, or as the rest of the world uses, two weeks. that should give us just enough time to think of some personification of all the bots, cartel users, colluders and software abusers, and stars' bungling response, then put it into film form. it'd probably look something like this:

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Old 06-21-2015, 08:30 AM   #1439
KDash
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Big thanks to Dave for his post
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Old 06-21-2015, 08:57 AM   #1440
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by pies01 View Post
Really disrespectfully put.
Not sure what point you're trying to make.
There were 3 steps
1) some random person created sharkystrator that meant anyone who bought the software ("who could chew gum") could wait in a line to play recreational players
2) the lines became ridiculously large and full of weak regs
3) people decided that step 2 was killing the games so to make it more dynamic and profitable, "divisions/cartels" we're created. This meant that there were a LOT of reg vs reg battles while people worked out the true pecking order

So sharky led to the situation, divisions and cartels helped clean it up (even though it was a pretty ugly process where plenty of well respected regs have been kicked out in the meantime).

That's why I said before that people talking about cartels for HUSNGs in the economic sense are really missing the point and funnily enough, a lot of the ongoing noise in this area was/is created by the weak regs who were kicked out because they weren't good enough.

You are missing the most important point


Cartels in practice mean a group of players with higher skill will sit fish
so if a fish plays 1000 games against a strong reg or 500 games against a strong reg 250 against a fish and 250 against weak reg

The first option means fish will lose money much faster

this is the main issue

Fish loses fast = stop or reduce the play

Also now 50% of those regs at cartels are afraid of battling and moving out to spins why is that happening have u asked yoruself ?

In a certain way scripts are similar i know guys who play nl 400 who only
sit fish and avoid playn at other regs

I consider that all predatory behaviours are bad for poker long term
and ZOOM although quite harder is much fairer to fish
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Old 06-21-2015, 09:33 AM   #1441
CoronalDischarge
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

^In the husng world (at least as far as nl turbos/hypers) a fish would never ever ever get to play another fish because regs have been playing the sit first/eyes on the lobby game for pretty much as long as the format has existed. There would be more than enough strong players taking that approach round the clock so there would literally never be an opportunity for a rec to sit first.

That being said, the cartels may be increasing the average reg quality so that the fish are indeed being skinned more efficiently to some extent.
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Old 06-21-2015, 09:34 AM   #1442
pies01
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJuliusDhelas View Post
You are missing the most important point


Cartels in practice mean a group of players with higher skill will sit fish
so if a fish plays 1000 games against a strong reg or 500 games against a strong reg 250 against a fish and 250 against weak reg

The first option means fish will lose money much faster

this is the main issue

Fish loses fast = stop or reduce the play

Also now 50% of those regs at cartels are afraid of battling and moving out to spins why is that happening have u asked yoruself ?

In a certain way scripts are similar i know guys who play nl 400 who only
sit fish and avoid playn at other regs

I consider that all predatory behaviours are bad for poker long term
and ZOOM although quite harder is much fairer to fish




So it is ok for unproven mediocre regs to buy software and sit recreational players (because you don't think that's a cartel) but it is NOT ok for good regs who have beaten the unproven mediocre regs to keep using that software because they will beat the recreational players too quickly.

Got it. Thanks for clarifying how it should work.
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Old 06-21-2015, 09:56 AM   #1443
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Trying to outlaw things like "a virtual ring binder" suffers a similar problem - it's trivial to run on another PC, a phone, a tablet. Yes, you will stop most people running it on the same PC as their PokerStars client. If the fallback is "just use a real life ring binder", which obviously would be insane to ban / police - what's the point in trying to outlaw it on the PC?

On this particular issue, the line should be drawn imo exactly where I believe it to be now - you can have lookup data on your PC as much as you want. What you cannot do, is have a software process the logs / HH / screen scrape etc. in order to automatically bring up the appropriate page / section of the page / highlight recommended action without your intervention.
I agree with that 100%.
I am interested though why do you think HUDs which do exactly this:

Quote:
have a software process the logs / HH / screen scrape etc. in order to automatically bring up the appropriate page
from the database should be allowed while bringing the page from a chart shouldn't.
Or maybe I misunderstood your position on HUDs.

I mean a rule like: "you can't have anything that reads/interprets/screen scrapes anything game state related from PS client" should be a good start imo but somehow while everybody agrees it should be a case for preflop charts the database (which is in principle just a humongous chart) is somehow extempt.
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Old 06-21-2015, 10:00 AM   #1444
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by pies01 View Post
So it is ok for unproven mediocre regs to buy software and sit recreational players (because you don't think that's a cartel) but it is NOT ok for good regs who have beaten the unproven mediocre regs to keep using that software because they will beat the recreational players too quickly.

Got it. Thanks for clarifying how it should work.
Yes, you got it. Backwards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJuliusDhelas View Post
In a certain way scripts are similar i know guys who play nl 400 who only sit fish and avoid playn at other regs

I consider that all predatory behaviours are bad for poker long term and ZOOM although quite harder is much fairer to fish
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Old 06-21-2015, 11:04 AM   #1445
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by cneuy3 View Post
Here in lies the problem with the bolded part. PokerStars cannot call out Skier's program as giving any more of an unfair advantage than a HuD can give an unfair advantage against someone without one. How are they going to spin that when they come back here and amend the rules? How can they argue that a HuD gives someone less advantage than his program?
both programms are different: one helps you to remember how your opponent have played in the past and the other make decisions for you. Don't you understand the difference for real? It doesnt matter how big the advantage a programm gives you as long as its a fair one. I mean of course a cyclist who ride with a 2015 bike is going to have a huge advantage over a cyclist that ride with a 1950 bike, but does that mean that he is cheating? You have to evolve with the game if you want to stay competitive.

So the rules should allow any programm that tells you how your opponent have played in the past cause it's fair but not allow any programm that make decisions for you, crunch number and calculate solution ingame or interpret information cause it's unfair imo
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Old 06-21-2015, 01:06 PM   #1446
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by fish_but_lucky View Post
both programms are different: one helps you to remember how your opponent have played in the past and the other make decisions for you. Don't you understand the difference for real? It doesnt matter how big the advantage a programm gives you as long as its a fair one. I mean of course a cyclist who ride with a 2015 bike is going to have a huge advantage over a cyclist that ride with a 1950 bike, but does that mean that he is cheating? You have to evolve with the game if you want to stay competitive.

So the rules should allow any programm that tells you how your opponent have played in the past cause it's fair but not allow any programm that make decisions for you, crunch number and calculate solution ingame or interpret information cause it's unfair imo
I don't think it's quite that simple.

What if I play skier_6 and decide I want to play like him and display his strategy in my HUD and play following that? Is that making decisions for me or is that remembering how an opponent played? What if a friend and I play each other and iterate until our histories reflect the preflop strategy which we want to play?

When does reference material begin to make a decision for you? What if I have a 5bb and under push fold chart for fish and a 5bb push fold chart for regs. I have 94o on the button at 5bb and my fish chart says to shove and my reg chart says to fold. What do I do and can you bring forward an argument that the reference material has made a decision for me?

How is it more fair that you can have a superhud breaking down your opponents history in every possible way, but you cannot write down your preflop strategy beforehand which you worked on off the tables?
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Old 06-21-2015, 01:53 PM   #1447
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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I'm willing to bet that this process was discussed in detail for the $60 cartel on this very forum, linked to by another player. What bizarre rules the frat club is currently running I don't know, I just read the thread written by the cartel.

Maybe they have to drink a pint of someone else's piss, go up to a beggar in the street and burn a $100 bill in front of them, run naked from A to B - frankly I don't know what they are doing now, all I did was report what they said they were doing in the thread on this very site.

Amazing that I am always accused of lying/falehood when I accept the marketing stuff put out by the S/W providers or the public process described by the cartel itself. You can find both on this forum.

Well bugger me sideways with a pitchfork, pardon me for taking them at their word.

Now if you want to explain the process for your club, detail the s/w used, the role of shared data..go for it....
So basically you have no idea how it works from every level from $30s to $1ks and are conveying (deliberately or otherwise) wrong information to try and sway public/pokerstars opinion in favour of what you want? Would that be a fair summation? But yea, it's absolutely amazing that someone who is lying/lacking knowledge is accused of lying/lacking knowledge. You know who else faces the same problems of those accusations, climate change deniers, it truly is a mystery why they would be accused of such things as well. Why not before writing 1000 word essays on the subject do some very, very basic research of how things currently work?

And before you try to retort about me trying to discredit you to silence your opinion or whatever other rubbish you want to come out with I'll just state this. All I want is a decision on this that is as fair and reasonable as can be. It's obviously a very difficult line to draw and there is a real risk that pokerstars overreacts and does something stupid (like the A4 piece of paper with information suggestion) which leads to a situation where unless you break the ToS you are at a huge disadvantage to almost everyone else who will ignore that or circumvent it. It's unfortunate that this decision for change seems to has arisen as a forced knee-jerk reaction to the original thread since they had already cleared skiers software as ok. But of course I take umbrage when I come into this thread and see one of the most vocal people on one side of the debate supporting their argument with things that would have took so little time to research themselves in what can only be seen as an attempt to sway any decision away from being fair and in the direction they want.
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Old 06-21-2015, 01:53 PM   #1448
UKZodiac
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Over/under on the number of additional pages until we get a conclusion?

(Stars are going to do what they want so let's get it done and move on).
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Old 06-21-2015, 01:55 PM   #1449
DarkMattersMan
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I think stars will print this thread off and file it under 'lol'
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Old 06-21-2015, 02:03 PM   #1450
VP$IP
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenowhere View Post
a situation where unless you break the ToS you are at a huge disadvantage to almost everyone else who will ignore that or circumvent it
this

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkMattersMan View Post
I think stars will print this thread off and file it under 'lol'
and this
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