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Old 06-19-2015, 07:35 PM   #1351
TimTamBiscuit
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richas View Post
The reason why Stars have opened up this debate is precisely because "strong players" in the limited game of HUSNGs, the cartel members subscribing to population trends via a data mining/data sharing site BTW have found themselves outclassed by Skier_5 and pretty much anyone else he has let have access to his entirely "legal" software.

It turns out that an entire cartel, using a specialised HUD and data mined/shared info has been completely defeated by Skier, his tool and his mates. Now they have cried foul.

For that limited game it is absolutely proven that the strongest players in the pool are those who base their decision on these kind of supertools. That's the point, a walking talking gum chewing Heads Up player that was being destroyed by the cartel is now bas[ing] their decision on these kind of supertools is crushing. This is down to a lot of hard work of the table by Skier_5 but he has proven (possibly a mistake) that the tool can transform the play of others too - using the hard work and expertise of Skier.

Now - HU is the canary in the mine, it is exactly where it should show up clearest, first but there is nothing that caps this phenomenom to HU - it turns out that static advice can be enough to chew gum and crush whilst relying on another's work. That is the whole point of the proposed rule change.

Just as seat grabbers are a killer in HU today and go under the radar elsewhere HU is just where we see it, where it happens first but more where it is most obvious. The NC and routine data mining is doing the same less clearly in 6 max and weaker still for tournaments, full ring, mixed games and likely bottom of the pile mixed game tournies .....the more complex the game, the more changes in game format the more that playing a tournament stack alters how best to play in a given hand (adds complexity for the s/w guys and kills sample sizes) the safer you are.

We have a point where one tool has killed a poker format (if it is allowed), in a place where a cartel has a loud voice to moan as they make money and hit their VIP targets without this newly discovered "unfair" thing.

Today, nobody with sense (and full information) will play HUSNGs for proper money without Skier's software, well maybe if their hope exceeds their sense - but that is only because HU makes this clear, the same issue is elsewhere too but the canary just looks a bit sleepy rather than lying dead at the bottom of the cage.

Today, for HUSNGs at serious stakes the supertool beats the reg. Proven, that is why we have this thread. Tomorrow? Well maybe if nowt is done we will get a clear proof for other games but actually what we have is an insidious decline where you can't quite PROVE its s/w but deep in your heart either as an advocate for it (I use it/I sell it) or (Ihate it/I am a rigtard inventing unfairness to avoid the fact that I am a useless human being) you know it's killing the game, that these "supertools" are already raping players in oter games - it's just we are not a SNE dominated cartel hoist on their own petard.
I use NC for cash games. Are you saying HUSNG cartel uses NC? (I can't see why they would bother frankly as it would be like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut). Skier's tool is merely a faster way of accessing shoving charts which I understood most HUSNGers have plastered hardcopy all over their walls. Rudimentary post-flop skills and shoving charts are sufficient win at HUSNG? What supertools are you saying HUSNGers cartel use?

Last edited by TimTamBiscuit; 06-19-2015 at 07:36 PM. Reason: I don't understand why NC keeps getting dragged into a HUSNG debate.
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Old 06-19-2015, 09:43 PM   #1352
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

PokerStars

After all is said and done, when you make a decision on this issue. I suggest you make an approved can only use software list meaning no other software is allowed if not on list. This will force home made or new for sale software to be checked first and approved by PS. If not, its my opinion users will feign ignorance for illegal software use when caught if thate software is not on the ban list.

If a company wants to be on the list of allowed software, they must send program to PS just like Skier did to get approval.
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Old 06-19-2015, 09:49 PM   #1353
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by OnMyBike View Post
Dear PokerStars Steve,

This is a very complex situation, with no easy solution. Whatever is decided will have long-lasting and far-reaching implications for all of online poker. I commend you for seeking player input.

That said, you have completely mismanaged the entire input process. You made one post that contains factual inaccuracies, threw down an octagon-of-death style ultimatum ("We will give you a period of 10 days...before we make a final decision"), then left. You've provided no further input, guidance, clarification, or information. Predictably the conversation quickly devolved into a total cluster****. As a result, there are smart people with good ideas staying as far away from this thread as possible.

For Christ's sake, this is a BIG DEAL. It's time to press the reset button on this conversation, and come up with a real process to evaluate PokerStars' options and chart a path forward - with input from software developers, recreational players, regs, and other stakeholders. (and not in a 2p2 thread)

Frankly, if you don't do this, I'll conclude that this thread is exactly what you wanted - a massive **** show that you can point back at and say "see there was no consensus among players so we did what we thought best". In which case perhaps you actually deserve all the Amaya hate heaped on you guys lately. I hope that's not the case.

GL GG.
I actuallly think PS already made a tentative decision on this issue already and are now are asking for input by the players to see if there is something perhaps they missed or got wrong. Either way, worst case scenario is they already made up their minds and this thread is just a farce so there wont be a huge uproar on 2+2 and other forums if they were just to announce changes.
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Old 06-19-2015, 10:05 PM   #1354
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Husker View Post
New recs are pretty much being gobbled up because there is so much knoweldge out there about the game now that it is more difficult than ever for new players. Back in the day you could start at 25nl, as I did, and learn a bit about the game but there is no chance of doing that now and that isn't down to software. I'm a recreational player and I only play 25nl but there was a time I was playing 100nl and honestly, if I was to play my current stakes the way I played 100nl a few years ago I'd get crushed. Everyone is so much better and that is mainly due to the wealth of learning material that is out there and how the games have advanced. When you've got 10nl players discussing a 5bet bluffing range you know things have definitely changed.

There has been discussions on other forums, such as small stakes, about how it is almost impossible for any new player to start playing now and work their way up to being a good winner at small stakes or mid stakes. The conversation is never about software being to blame, it's all about the knowledge the regs have now and how difficult it is to achieve that level as you don't get the time anymore.


I should add, I don't know what the solution to this is, I wish I did, but the idea that banning huds etc will solve it is a fallacy.
But banning huds will help wouldnt it? No one has ever said it was a solve all solution. If a player truly knows his game and beating the game through his own device, great, no one was saying otherwise in this scenario.

Its the mass number of multiple software that allows people to get that information quickly with no effort on their part is what is irking people.
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Old 06-20-2015, 12:43 AM   #1355
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I think you have to differentiate between different types of poker games by how well solved or theoretically solvable they are:

1. HUSNG especially short-stacked are essentially solved and can be readily automated ala Skier's software or hand charts on the wall.

Personally I don't play HUSNG because I find it boring not to have to solve a logic post-flop puzzle. I find it boring to look at a chart and shove or fold. If software and paper charts could somehow be banned from all HUSNG I'd play them at a recreational "let's have some fun" level. There is no point my playing when I know pros are effectively bots and I will get crushed. But how can you ban paper charts or software that could easily run on a second computer? This leads me to conclude you have to change the HUSNG rules somehow to add unsolvable complexity. Secondly, cartels are against the spirit of the game and against TOS as regs use tools like Sharkystrator to avoid each other and maximise play vs recs. All such tools should be banned.

If s/w aids are not banned, these games will die anyway as recs wise up and refuse to play.

2. MTT's are solvable once short-stacked and play becomes push/fold. Early full-stacked play is of limited consequence on eventual outcome as blinds rise. Same comments as above. Either ban tools or watch recs walk away.

3. HU 100BB+ cash play is solvable as estimated by Claudico team at 1-3 years away to have a Nash solution. So maybe same comments as above eventually apply but at the moment substantial post-flop skill is required. Hand samples build quickly as every hand is versus the same HU opponent in a match. Well-designed HUDs+ give an edge but the player has to have MUCH more knowledge of sound play than what applies in the push/fold charts of above categories or they will overinterpret or misinterpret HUD leading to losses.

4. 100BB multi-player (6+) cash-games are much more post-flop complex and 6-max+ games are theoretically unsolvable as Nash equilibrium isn't able to guarantee winning unless HU. It also takes a lot more hands to get a useful sample on a given opponent. HUDs+ vs regs provide an edge but that edge matures too slowly to be used against recs (other players will have stacked the rec before the HUD alone has noticed!). Player observation skills are essential against recs using Pokerstars color-coding and Notes. So for cash games, I don't think banning or allowing HUDS+ makes any difference to game fairness or recreational survivability.
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Old 06-20-2015, 02:04 AM   #1356
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Richas View Post
Devera, you and I have generally been on similar ground in this debate but here you have got it wrong.

The reason why Stars have opened up this debate is precisely because "strong players" in the limited game of HUSNGs, the cartel members subscribing to population trends via a data mining/data sharing site BTW have found themselves outclassed by Skier_5 and pretty much anyone else he has let have access to his entirely "legal" software.

It turns out that an entire cartel, using a specialised HUD and data mined/shared info has been completely defeated by Skier, his tool and his mates. Now they have cried foul.

For that limited game it is absolutely proven that the strongest players in the pool are those who base their decision on these kind of supertools. That's the point, a walking talking gum chewing Heads Up player that was being destroyed by the cartel is now bas[ing] their decision on these kind of supertools is crushing. This is down to a lot of hard work of the table by Skier_5 but he has proven (possibly a mistake) that the tool can transform the play of others too - using the hard work and expertise of Skier.

Now - HU is the canary in the mine, it is exactly where it should show up clearest, first but there is nothing that caps this phenomenom to HU - it turns out that static advice can be enough to chew gum and crush whilst relying on another's work. That is the whole point of the proposed rule change.

Just as seat grabbers are a killer in HU today and go under the radar elsewhere HU is just where we see it, where it happens first but more where it is most obvious. The NC and routine data mining is doing the same less clearly in 6 max and weaker still for tournaments, full ring, mixed games and likely bottom of the pile mixed game tournies .....the more complex the game, the more changes in game format the more that playing a tournament stack alters how best to play in a given hand (adds complexity for the s/w guys and kills sample sizes) the safer you are.

We have a point where one tool has killed a poker format (if it is allowed), in a place where a cartel has a loud voice to moan as they make money and hit their VIP targets without this newly discovered "unfair" thing.

Today, nobody with sense (and full information) will play HUSNGs for proper money without Skier's software, well maybe if their hope exceeds their sense - but that is only because HU makes this clear, the same issue is elsewhere too but the canary just looks a bit sleepy rather than lying dead at the bottom of the cage.

Today, for HUSNGs at serious stakes the supertool beats the reg. Proven, that is why we have this thread. Tomorrow? Well maybe if nowt is done we will get a clear proof for other games but actually what we have is an insidious decline where you can't quite PROVE its s/w but deep in your heart either as an advocate for it (I use it/I sell it) or (Ihate it/I am a rigtard inventing unfairness to avoid the fact that I am a useless human being) you know it's killing the game, that these "supertools" are already raping players in oter games - it's just we are not a SNE dominated cartel hoist on their own petard.
Hi Richas

I think that this needs some clarification. We haven't completely defeated any cartel, or in fact defeated one at all. What happened was that two of the people I work with had very good results vs cartel members over a few thousand games. Then people with an agenda to pressure us to reveal what we were doing perpetuated myths and it all snowballed from there. These myths caused people to freak out which caused more myths and the whole thing got out of control.

One of these myths was that anyone using my software is able to turn into someone who can beat them with little to no effort, but that simply is not true. They have missed the months of behind the scenes work these people have undertaken including plenty of time working one on one with me. I don't think many people would think that it is unreasonable that a 1k regular is able to help people beat the 100s and 200s players. Unlike what they would have you believe, I work with people who have had good results at the lower stakes and plenty of experience playing HUSNG who work very, very hard. There is nothing inconsistent with what we have achieved and with what anyone who is intelligent and hard working who receives expert tuition could achieve. We are hardly the only ones who have risen through the stakes in recent times. Other, more 'husng.com friendly' players have done it, and from what I've been told, with better results than us.

Preflop strategies alone will not make someone crush. Let's consider an imaginary player who simply checks or folds postflop. I can teach you how to win vs this imaginary player in a matter of minutes even if this player plays perfectly preflop.

Then things went really nuts when it was discovered that I had a third person I was working with and people started to connect dots based on these myths and the whole thing devolved to where we are today. That person still has not been able to replicate the results of the other two in the spotlight. My preflop strategy is not enough without also being an expert postflop player, which I can assure you does not come easy.
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Old 06-20-2015, 02:10 AM   #1357
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by TimTamBiscuit View Post
I use NC for cash games. Are you saying HUSNG cartel uses NC? (I can't see why they would bother frankly as it would be like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut). Skier's tool is merely a faster way of accessing shoving charts which I understood most HUSNGers have plastered hardcopy all over their walls. Rudimentary post-flop skills and shoving charts are sufficient win at HUSNG? What supertools are you saying HUSNGers cartel use?
My tool is simply a faster way of accessing charts, which many other HUSNGers do have plastered over their walls.

I don't doubt that some players do use Notecaddy, but I think he was referring specifically to the practice of the likes of coffeeyay/smartspin compiling and distributing population tendencies and charts based off population tendencies to their students, and husng.com selling HUDs with color coding based on said population tendencies. I also get the impression many of my opponents use sites like regz.club and other datamining/hh selling sites. I don't believe they use any supertools beyond the superhuds etc which have been discussed in this thread. Supertools? Maybe not. Super powerful? Most definitely.

edit:

Google image search brought up this for regz.club:



You can get stats like the above for any player in husng based on their near full history (I've heard third hand it's pretty accurate) since maybe a year ago? From what I've heard they have more stuff now like by flop texture breakdown, etc.

Last edited by skier_5; 06-20-2015 at 02:37 AM.
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Old 06-20-2015, 05:34 AM   #1358
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by skier_5 View Post
Preflop strategies alone will not make someone crush.
I'm not a HUSNG player so forgive my ignorance but, looking at the hyperturbo structure, players start with 25BB and blinds go up every 1 minute so within, say 2ish minutes, players are at less than 10BB effective stacks, surely well into the domain of chart-based pre-flop shoves & calls. Observing a few HUSNGs there is plenty of shoving right from the opening bell, maybe as much as about 15% of hands as a total guess.

Given these short stacks, is there post-flop skill in Hyperturbo HUSNG? Seriously? Or are you talking about non-hyper, non-turbo HUSNGs?

Quote:
Let's consider an imaginary player who simply checks or folds postflop. I can teach you how to win vs this imaginary player in a matter of minutes even if this player plays perfectly preflop.
Check/Fold seems pretty basic! LOL. But seriously, pls give a more expanded explanation why a rudimentary postflop strat (combined with slowing play maximally for 2ish minutes to avoid play) wouldn't be good enough to weather the first blind rise and then start "perfectly" shoving with charts?

Last edited by TimTamBiscuit; 06-20-2015 at 05:47 AM. Reason: Hypers blinds rise every 1 minute I think
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Old 06-20-2015, 05:59 AM   #1359
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Huds make the game much more interesting playing exploitative poker instead of playing GTO vs the general player pool which would actually require a lot less work once you have a solid strategy than playing with a hud does.

However stars would lose a huge amount of regs as most of them wouldn't want to put the work in required and would feel they could no longer beat the games so would play elsewhere. Thus losing stars a huge chunk of rake in the process while practically adding 0 fish to the site. This just wouldn't happen it'd cost stars too much money.

I know lots of fish. I've never heard any of them moan about software aids, not once even though many are aware of them. You are MUCH more likely to hear fish say 'the site is rigged' because they don't understand variance and think that they should win every 60/40 flip they get into. I hear this from many of them on a regular basis but still see them playing every day. Segregation is a much bigger issue than software assistance.

I'm not sure Pokerstars representatives fully understand what Note Caddy can do as the claims are unjust imo. I could find an argument for removing badges that change for each opponent (please note these badges do not change based on any specific action during a hand, they are static once present hand starts) which as far as I'm aware still doesn't break stars new proposed TOS.

Huds/NC are pretty ineffective against fish as firstly you don't need either of these to beat fish and secondly it's pretty hard to get a useful sample on fish. What is much more dangerous for the game is sites that sell hand histories - these HAVE to be somehow banned.

The reason why we have software assistance is because of the tells we are unable to pick up due to us playing through a computer. Without software online poker would be monotonous and I'd rather play live personally.
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Old 06-20-2015, 06:03 AM   #1360
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by TimTamBiscuit View Post
I'm not a HUSNG player so forgive my ignorance but, looking at the hyperturbo structure, players start with 25BB and blinds go up every 1 minute so within, say 2ish minutes, players are at less than 10BB effective stacks, surely well into the domain of chart-based pre-flop shoves & calls. Observing a few HUSNGs there is plenty of shoving right from the opening bell, maybe as much as about 15% of hands as a total guess.

Given these short stacks, is there post-flop skill in Hyperturbo HUSNG? Seriously? Or are you talking about non-hyper, non-turbo HUSNGs?



Check/Fold seems pretty basic! LOL. But seriously, pls give a more expanded explanation why a rudimentary postflop strat (combined with slowing play maximally for 2ish minutes to avoid play) wouldn't be good enough to weather the first blind rise and then start "perfectly" shoving with charts?
Hyper blinds increase every 2 minutes.

The reality is that Hyper HUSNGs are an incredibly competitive game (as you can't just sit out if somebody "good" decides to sit you) and because it is such a pure/precise form of poker,it teaches you a lot of poker's fundamentals.
Also, the having a vpip of 70-80+% preflop through limping, minraising and shoving leads to a lot of interesting spots.

Btw, purely open shoving/folding is only reasonably effective as a strategy when you are less than 8bb effective (probably quite a lot less tbh).

Your point on sharkystrator and cartels/divisions isn't quite right.
Basically, sharystrator was invented to allow regs to avoid each other (as it's quite difficult to beat the rake reg vs regs in HUSNGs ) so we all just open sat each other and waited for recreational players to sit us. This meant that to play recreational players, all you had to do was buy sharkystrator. This created longer and longer lines - a bit like how it works for heads up cash games I guess.

Eventually, people had enough of that and created divisions - unfortunately they were trying to be cool/funny/cheeky when they were created them and called them cartels (which creates a huge misunderstandings as to how it really works). From that point on, you had to prove that you were good enough to sit in a line to play. You basically prove yourself by achieving EV results over a certain amount of games.

Here's an example of how it works
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/18...-chat-1443479/

If a player is seen as weak and is part of a division/cartel, it's actually a really bad place to be as you face a lot of reg games so these players either drop out or get kicked out (turnover within these divisions would be greater than 50%).

After a lot of early reg battles over a couple of months, the lines drastically reduced and the games were much more dynamic and profitable for the best players at each stake. People often talk about the volume drop in HUSNGs being driven by the divisions/ cartels but they were actually driven by the creation of spin n go - have a look at he HUSNG volume reduction step changes for further evidence.
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Old 06-20-2015, 06:06 AM   #1361
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by rbunce View Post
Huds make the game much more interesting playing exploitative poker instead of playing GTO vs the general player pool which would actually require a lot less work once you have a solid strategy than playing with a hud does.

I've seen this type of logic a few times in this thread ie gto is easy, almost cheating and not real poker and not related to exploitative poker.

I'm not sure if this is how people tend to think in cash games but it sure makes me want to consider learning them
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Old 06-20-2015, 06:13 AM   #1362
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

What you are describing there pies is exactly a cartel and the way it operates in what should be an open market. I really can't understand how you or anyone can defend these sort of tactics, as it is simply collusion. Soft playing vs certain opponents IS a form of collusion. I'm amazed how you can't see that you've fked up your whole own ecosystem with that approach, with all of you praying on the occasional poor fker that wants to play a HU for fun and ends up being gang banged by a "militarized" (poker wise) gang, unknowingly.

I imagine Sony and Panasonic having a high level discussion on the lines of "there's no point in us competing against each other, since the profit margins are so low, so let's gang up and scare away all of our smaller competitors". That IS a cartel. And for these sort of things billions of dollars in fines have been paid. Yet you are defending it by saying "there's no point in regs playing each other, so let's gang up".

Last edited by devera; 06-20-2015 at 06:21 AM.
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Old 06-20-2015, 06:31 AM   #1363
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Huds/NC are pretty ineffective against fish as firstly you don't need either of these to beat fish and secondly it's pretty hard to get a useful sample on fish. What is much more dangerous for the game is sites that sell hand histories - these HAVE to be somehow banned.
Buying hand histories yields an effective sample size for use in a HUD. Not buying hand histories means too small a fish hand sample. I agree buying HH must be stopped somehow. The problem is the selling of hand histories not the use of HUDs by players who don't buy hand histories.
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Old 06-20-2015, 06:36 AM   #1364
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by MeleaB View Post
My fear, that I believe is inevitable, is that eventually AI software will become too good, and virtually impossible to detect, such as with the scenario of an efficient piece of software controlled by voice-activated commands given to a separate machine. (Perhaps in the future if everyone was forced to play 24 tables with no timebank then that would sidestep its usefulness! )
In a futurist world in which bots would be completely impossible to detect and thus would really be threatening to put an end at online poker I can only imagine one solution : pokerstars online casinos

If you are a winning regular (according to some fixed numbers by PS) your only way to keep your playing privileges would be to physically go to an ps online casino. You would have your own cubicle there with a desk, computer equipement, Ps software and everything you need to grind comfortably. You would not be able to download any kind of software without stars authorisation and there would be regular checks from ps employees. Open 24/7. Of course you would have to pay to go there with subscription prices depending on your volume and stakes played. After a while of showing up everyday you would get benefits like maybe being able to play 10h/months from your home first and then 20 and so on.

This would obviously have 0 impact on the fish who wouldnt be aware of anything. Those online casinos would be implented all over the world excluding Russia obviously. Very few in eastern europe as well.
This would have the great added benefit of rebalancing reg to fish ratio as a lot of regs wouldn't be willing to relocate to a place where there is an online casino.

All the senario sounds so cool to me but I wonder how unrealistic it is
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Old 06-20-2015, 06:37 AM   #1365
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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What you are describing there pies is exactly a cartel and the way it operates in what should be an open market. I really can't understand how you or anyone can defend these sort of tactics, as it is simply collusion. Soft playing vs certain opponents IS a form of collusion. I'm amazed how you can't see that you've fked up your whole own ecosystem with that approach, with all of you praying on the occasional poor fker that wants to play a HU for fun and ends up being gang banged by a "militarized" (poker wise) gang, unknowingly.

I imagine Sony and Panasonic having a high level discussion on the lines of "there's no point in us competing against each other, since the profit margins are so low, so let's gang up and scare away all of our smaller competitors". That IS a cartel. And for these sort of things billions of dollars in fines have been paid. Yet you are defending it by saying "there's no point in regs playing each other, so let's gang up".

The "no point in playing each other" concept was how it worked prior to the "cartels/divisions". Once the divisions were introduced, there became a massive incentive to play each other as it was the only way you could get a spot in the division so it became a truly competitive market.
And as I said above, if you're not one of the best in the game, you get kicked out.

The gang bang example is as a result of table selection tools (and is exactly the same issue people face in cash games) - NOT as a result of the divisions/cartels. Divisions/cartels actually means that regs play each other a lot more than they otherwise would have.

Also fwiw, any gto play is something that hyper husng players apply against reg players.

I'd recommend checking out this video for more information (and raise a bit of money for charity in the process).
http://www.husng.com/content/beating-recs


I don't want to turn this thread into a massive cartel/division chat but happy to either chat offline if you are genuinely interested or perhaps use the $60s link I posted above.
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Old 06-20-2015, 06:37 AM   #1366
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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I've seen this type of logic a few times in this thread ie gto is easy, almost cheating and not real poker and not related to exploitative poker.

I'm not sure if this is how people tend to think in cash games but it sure makes me want to consider learning them
No, perfect GTO play is a practical impossibility and is really hard to learn to approximate (taking for most of us IMO several years of hard work for 100BB cash games).

GTO is strongly related to exploitative poker as the better one gets at GTO the quicker one can detect non-GTO play and rapidly exploit it. So the better one gets at GTO, the better one also gets at exploitation.

100BB post-flop play is very different to 25BB post-flop play.
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Old 06-20-2015, 06:39 AM   #1367
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Your point on sharkystrator and cartels/divisions isn't quite right.
Basically, sharystrator was invented to allow regs to avoid each other (as it's quite difficult to beat the rake reg vs regs in HUSNGs ) so we all just open sat each other and waited for recreational players to sit us. This meant that to play recreational players, all you had to do was buy sharkystrator. This created longer and longer lines - a bit like how it works for heads up cash games I guess.
That is collusion and against the TOS so why isn't PS banning sharkystrator and everyone that uses it?
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Old 06-20-2015, 06:41 AM   #1368
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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What you are describing there pies is exactly a cartel and the way it operates in what should be an open market. I really can't understand how you or anyone can defend these sort of tactics, as it is simply collusion. Soft playing vs certain opponents IS a form of collusion. I'm amazed how you can't see that you've fked up your whole own ecosystem with that approach, with all of you praying on the occasional poor fker that wants to play a HU for fun and ends up being gang banged by a "militarized" (poker wise) gang, unknowingly.

I imagine Sony and Panasonic having a high level discussion on the lines of "there's no point in us competing against each other, since the profit margins are so low, so let's gang up and scare away all of our smaller competitors". That IS a cartel. And for these sort of things billions of dollars in fines have been paid. Yet you are defending it by saying "there's no point in regs playing each other, so let's gang up".

to add a bit of a twist, Sony and Panasonic set up a cartel rule: to enter the cartel you must buy some amount of Sony/Panasonic products. hey look, we are even transparent!

#freecandyvan
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Old 06-20-2015, 06:48 AM   #1369
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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The gang bang example is as a result of table selection tools (and is exactly the same issue people face in cash games) - NOT as a result of the divisions/cartels. Divisions/cartels actually means that regs play each other a lot more than they otherwise would have.
Table selection in cash or HUSNG based solely on hands you have played yourself is legal.

Table selection in cash based on datamined hands played by others is illegal. HUSNG selection based on third party queuing in sharkystrator is similarly a clear violation of TOS as the table selection is not based solely on playing against each other but is based on an implied reggyness based on licensing sharky.
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Old 06-20-2015, 06:54 AM   #1370
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I thought PS created spinngos to try to make the player pool anonymous but sharkystrator colludes around that too, doesn't it?
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Old 06-20-2015, 06:58 AM   #1371
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Table selection in cash or HUSNG based solely on hands you have played yourself is legal.

Table selection in cash based on datamined hands played by others is illegal. HUSNG selection based on third party queuing in sharkystrator is similarly a clear violation of TOS as the table selection is not based solely on playing against each other but is based on an implied reggyness based on licensing sharky.
Pokerstars have had a different view on that in the past - maybe they'll reconsider...
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Old 06-20-2015, 06:58 AM   #1372
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I watched a few hyper HUSNG and with rapid fire play there seemed about 10 hands before blinds went up but only about 4 hands if one player maxed out his time clock. 4 hands doesn't take much post-flop skill before shoving begins.
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Old 06-20-2015, 07:00 AM   #1373
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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I thought PS created spinngos to try to make the player pool anonymous but sharkystrator colludes around that too, doesn't it?
It's a different tool - called spinwiz - there are no divisions in that game atm so the lines are getting bigger and bigger
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Old 06-20-2015, 07:04 AM   #1374
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Opinions here have mostly been biased:
-someone like Timstone wants NC banned bc he uses PT4 and doesn't have it
-losing regs want it banned because they believe they would be winners otherwise(unlikely)
-NC packs seller want it allowed for obv reasons

Under the current rules I've been around 6-7bb winner and a successful coach for the last years so if there would be a bias on my part it would be to keep everything the same as it is.
I am also advanced in most of the software available now including NC.

However:
Stars have to draw a line in how powerful a software can be considering they keep getting stronger and stronger.
I don't believe it affects a rec so much in practice because they usually have a low sample for most of the stats to be effective. Only in rare circumstances where there is a large enough sample.
It affects some recs as a scary thing when they hear about software like that and may prevent them from playing but again, not so much in practice.

And the line should in my opinion be around here: You can show a basic hud like hm2 does but more than that is too much.
For example a hud shows you a fold to 3bet stat and you kind of know if you do the math that 70% is too much but you are using your judgment and math for it.

But when you see a badge that shows you should 3bet someone because combining fold equity preflop+fold equity from his call and fold to a cbet would make it a profitable move that crosses the line.

What does an actual bot do assuming he doesn't click the button itself?
Tells you to call, raise, fold basically. And what badges and stats like that do is they tell
you the same thing.
You see this badge-> you fold, call or raise.
If it's a stat that shows you his fold to 3bet, his call 3bet and his fold to cbet on the flop then I would say that is acceptable, because you actually need to check 3 stats and combine them yourself then decide what is enough and what isn't.
But when a badge tells you YES/NO it acts too close to a bot. It is game advice, it tells you FOLD/CALL/RAISE in a clear way based on the badge there.

P.S: my example was for notecaddy since there has been a lot of discussion about it here but obviously all the other software that cross the line in the way mentioned above should not be allowed.

Last edited by JonIrenicus; 06-20-2015 at 07:10 AM.
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Old 06-20-2015, 07:14 AM   #1375
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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It's a different tool - called spinwiz - there are no divisions in that game atm so the lines are getting bigger and bigger
And in Spinwiz licensed players queue separately from PS anonymous queue meaning that either you pay for spinwiz or find yourself battling regs all day? That doesn't seem fair.
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