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Old 06-19-2015, 03:14 PM   #1326
bravadomacho
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Just made me think of an idea though definitive. Do you think someone with autism would be amazing at poker?, like in the movie rainman. Because if HUDS get banned, I might hire a filipino kid with autism to come over with his mom, to play poker for me online. Can have a clean house and make da moula too.
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Old 06-19-2015, 03:15 PM   #1327
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richas View Post
Meanwhile the serious point is that yes, any restrictions could hurt s/w suppliers, especially small scale mom and pop add on suppliers. Thing is we have what is now a pretty mature market, indeed with the merger on HEM & PT we have a monopoly supplier situation - for them - and anyone supplying them with add on stuff a new regime with authorised s/w works well, indeed better.
richas dreaming of monopolies and police kicking in doors again. run PT inside stars for world dominion. putting policing of games on the public so the sites don't have to spend $$ to fix.
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Old 06-19-2015, 03:23 PM   #1328
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by TheDefiniteArticle View Post
It's part of the game because it's a game played on a computer. Any reasonable person playing any game on a computer for money will expect their opponents to take reasonable measures to give themselves an advantage - whether it's buying a specialist mouse in competitive gaming, or whether it's the use of a HUD in online poker. It also makes online poker substantially more enjoyable, whether the money factor is taken into account or not, and removes this bull**** 'game of people' image that poker has, getting it closer to the purely mathematical game it is and ought to be.
The problem with this is that once the software approaches or reaches the solution then the former fundamentally player skilled element that I mentioned no longer holds any relevance. The game becomes not worth playing anymore unless your hope is that players will not recognize that such software exists and sit down and play.

Simple I think somewhat relevant example. I think I'm very good at "Multiplication". Rain Man also feels he has an edge. We sit down to play a one problem tournament. We each pay the buy in plus 10% rake. Let's use 10+1.

The problem is handed to us. 547388 x 458089

I fail to calculate the correct answer in my head. Rain Man answers 250,752,421,532

He is the winner and collects his 20 unit prize.

Now lets assume we introduce pen and paper. I'd like to think I can tie him in this event but if we go even further and introduce a calculator now the possibility for human error is even smaller or rather human skill is vastly diminished.

Basically if poker software approaches anywhere near that point and is allowed in game the game will die. Just read Greg Nice blog post.

I agree that there is skill in interpreting and using software but what happens when that's no longer much of a skill? Not to mention the unfair aspects of some people using and knowing about it and others unaware.
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Old 06-19-2015, 03:40 PM   #1329
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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It is highly likely that other people are using programmes that are equal or better than skiers.

There have been suggestions in several other thread over the last few years that high stakes pros are using "programmes".
Damn that Skier bloke, if he had joined the cartel, decided that the high school in crowd of bullies were cool, then all would be fine - the cartel would have crushed, the staus quo would have continued and the whole row could have been delayed by a few months. Cartel hapy Stars happy, mugs raped. Cool.

Well sorry mates, the prom happened and it turned out that the pretty girl in the pink dress (from a thrift shop) kiked your ass with your cartel, seatgrabbers, in game advice based upon data mined info for the entire player pool (updated daily! for a small fee) got their asses kicked ad the backwash is a row about s/w for all games, damn that's sweet given the cartel only exists because of s/w and what anyone with a dictionary would call collusion.
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Old 06-19-2015, 03:55 PM   #1330
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

you guys really dont get it

any ban they implement will relatively easily be outmaneuvered by coders

this is very literally the beginning of the end of online poker

will go something like this....

bans->new solutions to counter the bans->PS puts maximum effort into enforcing bans->still plenty of ways to get around the bans->customers lose faith in Stars' ability to enforce bans/control their own games->GG
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Old 06-19-2015, 03:56 PM   #1331
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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richas dreaming of monopolies and police kicking in doors again. run PT inside stars for world dominion. putting policing of games on the public so the sites don't have to spend $$ to fix.
Yeah damn me, thinking that people that cheat, defraud, gain unfair advantage should suffer a bit of comeback. Like you say, probably ain't gonna happen but
if you don't have a dream, how you gonna have a dream come true?.... try some happy talk....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy5Mj7bxTxU

on the plus side I've just poured the last glass so goodnight.
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Old 06-19-2015, 04:13 PM   #1332
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Richas View Post
Damn that Skier bloke, if he had joined the cartel, decided that the high school in crowd of bullies were cool, then all would be fine - the cartel would have crushed, the staus quo would have continued and the whole row could have been delayed by a few months. Cartel hapy Stars happy, mugs raped. Cool.

Well sorry mates, the prom happened and it turned out that the pretty girl in the pink dress (from a thrift shop) kiked your ass with your cartel, seatgrabbers, in game advice based upon data mined info for the entire player pool (updated daily! for a small fee) got their asses kicked ad the backwash is a row about s/w for all games, damn that's sweet given the cartel only exists because of s/w and what anyone with a dictionary would call collusion.
Hmm perhaps the girl in the pink dress (from the thrift shop) won this time, but I think the lady in the Ferrari wearing Armani (from a expensive boutique) has been winning for a long long time. Its impossible to prove, but I would be certain that lots of mid to high stakes players have better software with more data than skier uses.

For the record I would like a total ban on all software.
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Old 06-19-2015, 04:25 PM   #1333
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

To those saying "in-game s/w can't be banned now because everyone's used to it":
The same argument could have been made for not abolishing slavery or not enfranchising women. The fact that people have become used to a different system and some people might lose out from the change, doesn't override the imperative to remove something that is unfair and bad for the long-term health of the system overall. Some of the NC supporters in particular come across a bit like slave-owners, producing contorted arguments for why the status quo should persist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDefiniteArticle View Post
1) This is online poker. Software is part of the game. Therefore, someone's ability to use certain software (which don't automate decisions or provide active advice) is part of how 'fundamentally strong and talented' they are.
I disagree with this. Software is part of a game, but its not poker, its poker+software. Ultimately in-game software leads to a situation where the best players of poker (ie live) will be a different set of people to those good at poker+software.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cneuy3 View Post
The problem with this is that once the software approaches or reaches the solution then the former fundamentally player skilled element that I mentioned no longer holds any relevance. The game becomes not worth playing anymore unless your hope is that players will not recognize that such software exists and sit down and play.
This is where we're going. We're rapidly approaching a point where nobody except the site can make money because edges shrivel. The few new recs will be instantly surrounded by a bunch of hungry piranhas and gobbled up. Preventing software will push out the date when it happens.
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Old 06-19-2015, 04:28 PM   #1334
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Thus creating a stalemate at best amongst the last few remaining pool of software players
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Old 06-19-2015, 04:36 PM   #1335
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Online poker has def become a joke. Many times I want to try a new game/format but don't because i know I will be badly outsoftwared
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Old 06-19-2015, 04:36 PM   #1336
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by TheDefiniteArticle View Post
It's part of the game because it's a game played on a computer. Any reasonable person playing any game on a computer for money will expect their opponents to take reasonable measures to give themselves an advantage - whether it's buying a specialist mouse in competitive gaming, or whether it's the use of a HUD in online poker. It also makes online poker substantially more enjoyable, whether the money factor is taken into account or not, and removes this bull**** 'game of people' image that poker has, getting it closer to the purely mathematical game it is and ought to be.
No one ever denied Poker isn't about math here. Point is Poker is about the mind and your mind is the skill and not how your mind gets expanded, widened are otherwise influenced by aspects outside the natural state of the game. If one has a good memory or talent for observation it's a skill. If a software does it for me then none or to a lesser extend is involved.

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Wow, I don't think I've ever sounded so autistic.
See!!, HUDs even have side-effects on your brain. xD
We got'em people, we got'em! Autistic outbreak among Poker HUD users, even their testicles get useless
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Old 06-19-2015, 04:42 PM   #1337
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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The few new recs will be instantly surrounded by a bunch of hungry piranhas and gobbled up. Preventing software will push out the date when it happens.
New recs are pretty much being gobbled up because there is so much knoweldge out there about the game now that it is more difficult than ever for new players. Back in the day you could start at 25nl, as I did, and learn a bit about the game but there is no chance of doing that now and that isn't down to software. I'm a recreational player and I only play 25nl but there was a time I was playing 100nl and honestly, if I was to play my current stakes the way I played 100nl a few years ago I'd get crushed. Everyone is so much better and that is mainly due to the wealth of learning material that is out there and how the games have advanced. When you've got 10nl players discussing a 5bet bluffing range you know things have definitely changed.

There has been discussions on other forums, such as small stakes, about how it is almost impossible for any new player to start playing now and work their way up to being a good winner at small stakes or mid stakes. The conversation is never about software being to blame, it's all about the knowledge the regs have now and how difficult it is to achieve that level as you don't get the time anymore.


I should add, I don't know what the solution to this is, I wish I did, but the idea that banning huds etc will solve it is a fallacy.
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Old 06-19-2015, 04:47 PM   #1338
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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>>This video is not available in Germany because it may contain music of SME, through their use we have not been able to agree with GEMA

this needs more cops to man the fences in the intellectual sphere. cheers!
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Old 06-19-2015, 05:16 PM   #1339
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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>>This video is not available in Germany because it may contain music of SME, through their use we have not been able to agree with GEMA

this needs more cops to man the fences in the intellectual sphere. cheers!
That's a shame really, as it happens I just linked to the song not the classic film clip of South Pacific (1958). For those with access let the song play, straight after you get the film clip which in 1958 was as raunchy as film making got, scandalous even, the most beautiful woman you could imagine for the boys and the lesbians and a very fit bloke in his swimming tunks for the girls and the gay blokes....swimming, snogging, gazing....if you don't have a dream, how you gonna have a dream come true..... try some dodgy German googling no-one should end their life without seeing this clip....and the curent HUSNG cartel forced to go whining to teacher because the nasty boy brought his own software to the playground and would not let the cool kids have it...*****y to finf teacher ask questions about all s/w and data.
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Old 06-19-2015, 05:32 PM   #1340
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

i'll take this, good enough by my standards..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drebIW3HDig
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Old 06-19-2015, 05:56 PM   #1341
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Dear PokerStars Steve,

This is a very complex situation, with no easy solution. Whatever is decided will have long-lasting and far-reaching implications for all of online poker. I commend you for seeking player input.

That said, you have completely mismanaged the entire input process. You made one post that contains factual inaccuracies, threw down an octagon-of-death style ultimatum ("We will give you a period of 10 days...before we make a final decision"), then left. You've provided no further input, guidance, clarification, or information. Predictably the conversation quickly devolved into a total cluster****. As a result, there are smart people with good ideas staying as far away from this thread as possible.

For Christ's sake, this is a BIG DEAL. It's time to press the reset button on this conversation, and come up with a real process to evaluate PokerStars' options and chart a path forward - with input from software developers, recreational players, regs, and other stakeholders. (and not in a 2p2 thread)

Frankly, if you don't do this, I'll conclude that this thread is exactly what you wanted - a massive **** show that you can point back at and say "see there was no consensus among players so we did what we thought best". In which case perhaps you actually deserve all the Amaya hate heaped on you guys lately. I hope that's not the case.

GL GG.
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Old 06-19-2015, 06:08 PM   #1342
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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I should add, I don't know what the solution to this is.
A time machine, imo.
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Old 06-19-2015, 06:13 PM   #1343
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Yeah, basically, the 'autistic' post meant 'please ignore the above post, it's ****ing ******ed'. I think HUDs make the game better and more fun than e.g. live poker, but calling them an inherent part of online poker is silly except on sites which have them inbuilt (I think Carbon did this?), so apologies for suggesting that, it was wrong.
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Old 06-19-2015, 06:28 PM   #1344
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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A time machine, imo.
Probably need a ****load of software for it though
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Old 06-19-2015, 06:38 PM   #1345
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by OnMyBike View Post
Dear PokerStars Steve,

This is a very complex situation, with no easy solution. Whatever is decided will have long-lasting and far-reaching implications for all of online poker. I commend you for seeking player input.

That said, you have completely mismanaged the entire input process. You made one post that contains factual inaccuracies, threw down an octagon-of-death style ultimatum ("We will give you a period of 10 days...before we make a final decision"), then left. You've provided no further input, guidance, clarification, or information. Predictably the conversation quickly devolved into a total cluster****. As a result, there are smart people with good ideas staying as far away from this thread as possible.

For Christ's sake, this is a BIG DEAL. It's time to press the reset button on this conversation, and come up with a real process to evaluate PokerStars' options and chart a path forward - with input from software developers, recreational players, regs, and other stakeholders. (and not in a 2p2 thread)

Frankly, if you don't do this, I'll conclude that this thread is exactly what you wanted - a massive **** show that you can point back at and say "see there was no consensus among players so we did what we thought best". In which case perhaps you actually deserve all the Amaya hate heaped on you guys lately. I hope that's not the case.

GL GG.
Because there minds are either already made up, or our inputs don't matter. It's 100% a financial decision and they are running it by the even more inept superiors at Amaya. It wasn't even attempted to be addressed on the podcast so whats that tell you. Honestly, pokerstars is such a joke now.
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Old 06-19-2015, 06:44 PM   #1346
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Husker View Post
I should add, I don't know what the solution to this is, I wish I did, but the idea that banning huds etc will solve it is a fallacy.
Literally no one in this thread who is arguing in favour of an in-game s/w ban thinks that banning HUDs will "solve" the issue entirely, it's about decreasing the rate at which fun players are going broke and helping to slow down the rate at which online poker is speeding towards its inevitable demise.

I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that this is what we'd see if Stars implemented a ban on in-game s/w
  • regs cut their table #'s in ~1/2 (throwing mud at the wall w/ this #, could be smaller for some, larger for others)
  • regs take longer to recognize what type of fun player they are dealing with (loose/passive, maniac, super nit, etc.) and make the appropriate adjustments to max exploit said opponent
  • less regs leads to a decreased reg:fun player ratio per table (i.e. more rec players/table)
  • increased WR for most regs (ability to bookkeep ranges more efficiently, more fun players/table, less fellow regs)
  • increased WR for fun players (less good players at each table, more fellow recs)
  • less regs per table + increased WR for fun players = longer to bust deposits, more enjoyable experience (more likely to re-deposit? more likely to encourage friends to make deposits?)

Inb4someonecitesthatMPNblogpost

---------

Once again, props to guys like Skier and raidalot who are taking a big picture approach ITT.

Last edited by TheTender31; 06-19-2015 at 06:46 PM. Reason: Unibet didn't ban HUDs, in-game s/w for no reason, people
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Old 06-19-2015, 06:53 PM   #1347
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by TheTender31 View Post
Literally no one in this thread who is arguing in favour of an in-game s/w ban thinks that banning HUDs will "solve" the issue entirely, it's about decreasing the rate at which fun players are going broke and helping to slow down the rate at which online poker is speeding towards its inevitable demise.

I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that this is what we'd see if Stars implemented a ban on in-game s/w
  • regs cut their table #'s in ~1/2 (throwing mud at the wall w/ this #, could be smaller for some, larger for others)
  • regs take longer to recognize what type of fun player they are dealing with (loose/passive, maniac, super nit, etc.) and make the appropriate adjustments to max exploit said opponent
  • less regs leads to a decreased reg:fun player ratio per table (i.e. more rec players/table)
  • increased WR for most regs (ability to bookkeep ranges more efficiently, more fun players/table, less fellow regs)
  • increased WR for fun players (less good players at each table, more fellow recs)
  • less regs per table + increased WR for fun players = longer to bust deposits, more enjoyable experience (more likely to re-deposit? more likely to encourage friends to make deposits?)

Inb4someonecitesthatMPNblogpost

---------

Once again, props to guys like Skier and raidalot who are taking a big picture approach ITT.
With regards to your points

1) Something like that would probably happen.
2) I'm not so sure. Given people will be playing less tables and will be paying more attention they will probably spot the fish's tendencies pretty quickly.
3) May be the case but again I'm not sure. Many recs also multitable and use a hud so they will be reducing tables as well.
4) Possibly
5) No evidence this would be the case (Obv you know this given your statement re MPN)
6) See point 5
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Old 06-19-2015, 07:08 PM   #1348
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Husker View Post
With regards to your points

1) Something like that would probably happen.
2) I'm not so sure. Given people will be playing less tables and will be paying more attention they will probably spot the fish's tendencies pretty quickly.
Admittedly possible; but, even if this was the case, there would be less good players at the table to do so
3) May be the case but again I'm not sure. Many recs also multitable and use a hud so they will be reducing tables as well.
Don't agree, vast majority of fun players keep their table counts low, don't think an in-game software ban would have much/any effect on this
4) Possibly
5) No evidence this would be the case (Obv you know this given your statement re MPN)
The MPN blog post was in re: anonymous, HUD-less tables - I'm a believer that the pots were larger on these tables due to psychological reasons (less attachment to their actions due to anonymity, more willingness to pump $ into pots b/c their actions couldn't be attributed back to them/an ID)
6) See point 5
.
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Old 06-19-2015, 07:12 PM   #1349
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by raidalot View Post
To those saying "in-game s/w can't be banned now because everyone's used to it":
The same argument could have been made for not abolishing slavery or not enfranchising women. The fact that people have become used to a different system and some people might lose out from the change, doesn't override the imperative to remove something that is unfair and bad for the long-term health of the system overall. Some of the NC supporters in particular come across a bit like slave-owners, producing contorted arguments for why the status quo should persist.

I disagree with this. Software is part of a game, but its not poker, its poker+software. Ultimately in-game software leads to a situation where the best players of poker (ie live) will be a different set of people to those good at poker+software.

This is where we're going. We're rapidly approaching a point where nobody except the site can make money because edges shrivel. The few new recs will be instantly surrounded by a bunch of hungry piranhas and gobbled up. Preventing software will push out the date when it happens.
Great post, as usual. In-game s/w is acting as a catalyst towards this end.
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Old 06-19-2015, 07:29 PM   #1350
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnMyBike View Post
Dear PokerStars Steve,

This is a very complex situation, with no easy solution. Whatever is decided will have long-lasting and far-reaching implications for all of online poker. I commend you for seeking player input.

That said, you have completely mismanaged the entire input process. You made one post that contains factual inaccuracies, threw down an octagon-of-death style ultimatum ("We will give you a period of 10 days...before we make a final decision"), then left. You've provided no further input, guidance, clarification, or information. Predictably the conversation quickly devolved into a total cluster****. As a result, there are smart people with good ideas staying as far away from this thread as possible.

For Christ's sake, this is a BIG DEAL. It's time to press the reset button on this conversation, and come up with a real process to evaluate PokerStars' options and chart a path forward - with input from software developers, recreational players, regs, and other stakeholders. (and not in a 2p2 thread)

Frankly, if you don't do this, I'll conclude that this thread is exactly what you wanted - a massive **** show that you can point back at and say "see there was no consensus among players so we did what we thought best". In which case perhaps you actually deserve all the Amaya hate heaped on you guys lately. I hope that's not the case.

GL GG.
+1
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