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Old 06-19-2015, 12:53 PM   #1301
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Richas View Post
You are right that it is a PR number but not quite how you say it is read (not by you). Their claim is that 95% of those they catch cheating they do so without help from other players. This sounds credible, most will be complete numpties, if you can't catch them very quickly then strewth. They hear 95% caught but that is not the real claim

They are not claiming that they catch 95% of all cheaters. They may like to sound like that to the general public but they make no such claim, turns out they are not idiots, they get that the number avoiding detection is a known unknown.

What they have confirmed is that 5% are detected by players, that is a huge number, that is a group that escapes the standard, normal Stars checks and is certain due to observational bias to relate to very heavy players, playing a lot of hands.

Catching 3 drunken Croats or mates in a dorm at Brixton college colluding on skype, or in the same room on a drunken Friday night is not as IMPORTANT as the 5% players detect - few players will notice, fewer report and on recent record only a subset of those will be heard. Sadly that 5% is a far higher share of the (known) cheating cash total.
Misintepreted Skier's post and did a quick research to find the orginal statement which cleared it up. Stars claiming to catch 95% of all bots would have been incredible stupid. That said, i also wouldn't bet too much on the 95 to 5 as claimed by Stars.
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Old 06-19-2015, 12:59 PM   #1302
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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this is where it would start to get interesting. iirc max observer hands used to be a switch in the software that was trivial to flip. there is no way known in this universe you can protect against haxxors with hex editors.
SKIP SKIP SKIP

This is just not so, you are assuming a s/w world without the active (and covert and encypted) cooperation of the third party software suppliers.

If what you said was true there would be no online banking, not stock trading via computer, no trusted defence networks (and I don't mean Snowden's download from a site that had over 1m people able to logon to all that data and then have the Russians and Chinese spend over a year cracking the extra encyption on some files with a brute force attack).

The key here is geting the approved s/w suppliers into a proper collaborative relationship to defeat cheaters rather than the world today where there is some hidden cooperation to get it to work but the site and S/W supplier remain silent on the deal and do NOTHING to prevent cheating - by cheating I mean use of data mined/shared data - prohibited data that is already banned even without this sugestion from Stars of a rule tweak.

APOLOGIES
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Old 06-19-2015, 01:07 PM   #1303
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Sorry for my last post as I interpreted your post wrong. After first reading it I had thought you meant to say that the 95% of cheats that PokerStars does claim to have caught might make up a significant more amount of money stolen from the player pool.

I understand what you were pointing to now. You're right, if not for the players in this recent case maybe it would have continued to go unnoticed and more money stolen.

Anonymous tables would take the ability for players to police their own games out of the player's hands. There probably has to be a bit more transparency on PokerStars part. They should also hire and dedicate more resources to the problem. In the end you just have to take it as a sacrifice for greater good of the games assuming that's your point of view.

Anonymous tables are by no means ideal, and in a perfect world it wouldn't have to come to that but obviously we don't live in that world so sacrifices have to be made one way or the another.
That's gonna be a hard sell. Telling people 'Well I accept that some bots are gonna go unnoticed, and that will result in millions being taken from the games, but that's the price we have to pay' really isn't gonna go down well. Neither is hoping that sites will somehow up their game and catch them all as history shows that isn't happening.
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Old 06-19-2015, 01:09 PM   #1304
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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All I was saying is that strong players don't base their decision on these kind of supertools, since their understanding on the game is built "offline", while studying their game and their opp's game. I really don't think I'm stretching it here. In fact, most of the NC advocates say exactly that - "NC is not that powerful actually in making in-game decisions". So what side are you on, actually? Cause now you really baffle me
From the 500NL+ players that we know, some are using NC, some others are not. Zaza and apotheosis are using it (iveyleague). Even though they only are using the basic features such as additional customed stats and overall scatter graphs. Some from runitonce as well (mark lammers, who seems to be using the scatter graphs a little bit more), maybe some others from RIO as well (i don't watch everything). And some are not using it (sauce123 is on PT4, eraser doesn't use it etc...). And some are also using a very basic HUD (tyler forrester). Basically, the more GTO the style of the player is, the less advanced his HUD is going to be. The more exploitative his style is, the more advanced his HUD is going to be.
And none of them is using any premium HUD such as NCEdge or Ajackson for example. And none of them are using advanced scatter graphs / heatmaps or shinny little badges as some players called them in this thread. So you see, there is a little bit of everything.
These are facts, and not thoughts.

Last edited by KDash; 06-19-2015 at 01:25 PM.
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Old 06-19-2015, 01:09 PM   #1305
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by PokerStars Steve View Post
• NoteCaddy as is would require changes. It is permissible for HUDs to filter / drill down via street, but not by action facing or hole card / communicate card values.
Can you specify on what exact changes NC will have to do if the rules change?

a HUD like this one http://www.pokerhuds.com/mtt-hud-hol...r-2-notecaddy/ will still be totally allowed or will it need to be changed in some way? because I don't think it uses the features you specified above

Last edited by M_Acevedo; 06-19-2015 at 01:19 PM.
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Old 06-19-2015, 01:16 PM   #1306
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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lmfao another rec with no arguments.
I play for a living and im against all the sw. Im pretty sure their are a ton of guy's who play for a living itt
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Old 06-19-2015, 01:34 PM   #1307
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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I use those tools quite a lot. I don't need them to win though. Removing them will make the games more fun for me and the recs.
Those that NEED those tools will move down 2 to 5 limits when they are gone.
Almost every winning player that wants the tools removed are good winners and almost every guy for these tools are small winners. There's a patern. Find it.
....
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Old 06-19-2015, 01:39 PM   #1308
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Can you guys stop answering fR-NIT? He's the creator of a notecaddy definition add-on.

If this change goes through, he goes back to work at mcdonalds. Simply ignore him completely and there's more chance for pokerstars reps to read through the thread without constant bickering from a guy who decided to create definitions for a living.
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Old 06-19-2015, 01:46 PM   #1309
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Oh I see now.. cool I know everybody has some kind of bias, but some really have it to a way bigger degree than others.
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Old 06-19-2015, 01:49 PM   #1310
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by devera View Post
All I was saying is that strong players don't base their decision on these kind of supertools, since their understanding on the game is built "offline", while studying their game and their opp's game. I really don't think I'm stretching it here. In fact, most of the NC advocates say exactly that - "NC is not that powerful actually in making in-game decisions". So what side are you on, actually? Cause now you really baffle me
Devera, you and I have generally been on similar ground in this debate but here you have got it wrong.

The reason why Stars have opened up this debate is precisely because "strong players" in the limited game of HUSNGs, the cartel members subscribing to population trends via a data mining/data sharing site BTW have found themselves outclassed by Skier_5 and pretty much anyone else he has let have access to his entirely "legal" software.

It turns out that an entire cartel, using a specialised HUD and data mined/shared info has been completely defeated by Skier, his tool and his mates. Now they have cried foul.

For that limited game it is absolutely proven that the strongest players in the pool are those who base their decision on these kind of supertools. That's the point, a walking talking gum chewing Heads Up player that was being destroyed by the cartel is now bas[ing] their decision on these kind of supertools is crushing. This is down to a lot of hard work of the table by Skier_5 but he has proven (possibly a mistake) that the tool can transform the play of others too - using the hard work and expertise of Skier.

Now - HU is the canary in the mine, it is exactly where it should show up clearest, first but there is nothing that caps this phenomenom to HU - it turns out that static advice can be enough to chew gum and crush whilst relying on another's work. That is the whole point of the proposed rule change.

Just as seat grabbers are a killer in HU today and go under the radar elsewhere HU is just where we see it, where it happens first but more where it is most obvious. The NC and routine data mining is doing the same less clearly in 6 max and weaker still for tournaments, full ring, mixed games and likely bottom of the pile mixed game tournies .....the more complex the game, the more changes in game format the more that playing a tournament stack alters how best to play in a given hand (adds complexity for the s/w guys and kills sample sizes) the safer you are.

We have a point where one tool has killed a poker format (if it is allowed), in a place where a cartel has a loud voice to moan as they make money and hit their VIP targets without this newly discovered "unfair" thing.

Today, nobody with sense (and full information) will play HUSNGs for proper money without Skier's software, well maybe if their hope exceeds their sense - but that is only because HU makes this clear, the same issue is elsewhere too but the canary just looks a bit sleepy rather than lying dead at the bottom of the cage.

Today, for HUSNGs at serious stakes the supertool beats the reg. Proven, that is why we have this thread. Tomorrow? Well maybe if nowt is done we will get a clear proof for other games but actually what we have is an insidious decline where you can't quite PROVE its s/w but deep in your heart either as an advocate for it (I use it/I sell it) or (Ihate it/I am a rigtard inventing unfairness to avoid the fact that I am a useless human being) you know it's killing the game, that these "supertools" are already raping players in oter games - it's just we are not a SNE dominated cartel hoist on their own petard.
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Old 06-19-2015, 01:52 PM   #1311
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by MX210 View Post
Can you guys stop answering fR-NIT? He's the creator of a notecaddy definition add-on.

If this change goes through, he goes back to work at mcdonalds. Simply ignore him completely and there's more chance for pokerstars reps to read through the thread without constant bickering from a guy who decided to create definitions for a living.
Never worked at McDonalds, but thanks for the advice. Might be an option
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Old 06-19-2015, 01:59 PM   #1312
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Never worked at McDonalds, but thanks for the advice. Might be an option
Don't blame you for creating the software when Pokerstars is too inadequate,greedy,incompetent, shortsighted to assistance software like this that has help kill the game.

Still absurd the bot issue has not been addressed but not surprising at all.
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Old 06-19-2015, 02:04 PM   #1313
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Today, nobody with sense (and full information) will play HUSNGs for proper money without Skier's software
The same way nobody sane is going to play cash games without a very good static HUD.
Being publicly available can't possibly be a good base for new rules as selling it for 100k/pop would technically be "publicly available" but not really in practice.
I mean, Skier's software is as static as it comes, it's more static than any HUD in existence - what rules do you propose to ban it but still allow your standard HM2 HUD?

While I think banning all in-game tools is the best solution I think 2nd best is to have sane rules describing what is and isn't kosher. I believe it's impossible to come up with sane rules which would ban Skier's software but allow for HUDs because processing 100's GBs of data and displaying the result of that depending on current game state (as HUDs do, even "static" ones) can simulate mere chart which never changes.

Last edited by punter11235; 06-19-2015 at 02:09 PM.
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Old 06-19-2015, 02:12 PM   #1314
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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SKIP SKIP SKIP
i'm in your ram killing your dudes.

note that i will not repeat my offer to PM a third time.
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Old 06-19-2015, 02:13 PM   #1315
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by MX210 View Post
Can you guys stop answering fR-NIT? He's the creator of a notecaddy definition add-on.

If this change goes through, he goes back to work at mcdonalds. Simply ignore him completely and there's more chance for pokerstars reps to read through the thread without constant bickering from a guy who decided to create definitions for a living.
Thanks for shedding light on that pompous arrogant little twerp. It all makes sense now. Sorry for hurting your feelings the fr nit.
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Old 06-19-2015, 02:16 PM   #1316
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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It turns out that an entire cartel, using a specialised HUD and data mined/shared info has been completely defeated by Skier, his tool and his mates. Now they have cried foul.

For that limited game it is absolutely proven that the strongest players in the pool are those who base their decision on these kind of supertools. That's the point, a walking talking gum chewing Heads Up player that was being destroyed by the cartel is now bas[ing] their decision on these kind of supertools is crushing. This is down to a lot of hard work of the table by Skier_5 but he has proven (possibly a mistake) that the tool can transform the play of others too - using the hard work and expertise of Skier.

Now - HU is the canary in the mine, it is exactly where it should show up clearest, first but there is nothing that caps this phenomenom to HU - it turns out that static advice can be enough to chew gum and crush whilst relying on another's work. That is the whole point of the proposed rule change
It is highly likely that other people are using programmes that are equal or better than skiers.

There have been suggestions in several other thread over the last few years that high stakes pros are using "programmes".
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Old 06-19-2015, 02:17 PM   #1317
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Thanks for shedding light on that pompous arrogant little twerp. It all makes sense now. Sorry for hurting your feelings the fr nit.
Well, not sure the bolded part is a fitting description for me.....but overall happy that something makes sense for you.
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Old 06-19-2015, 02:18 PM   #1318
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

This kdash guy is rude and quite relentless.
kdash, you are losing the argument ,and you are going to lose your software assistance soon. gg buddy..
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Old 06-19-2015, 02:20 PM   #1319
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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lmfao another rec with no arguments.
O look. Another self entitled software specialist who has had his feathers rustled at the prospect of losing his unfair advantage tools and now has to face the reality that maybe he might have to learn how to play real poker.
You dismissing 'recs' as clueless just shows how delusional and short sighted/selfish your perception of online poker is.
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Old 06-19-2015, 02:30 PM   #1320
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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This is online poker. Software is part of the game.
I don't understand this. How come? It's not necessary to play the game, it's not part of the online service that hosts the tables. When online poker started there were no HUDs but came afterwards. The community just made it "being part of the game". The game rules don't tell you a pair is higher then high card and you should get a tracker but it's optional though
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Old 06-19-2015, 02:38 PM   #1321
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Never worked at McDonalds, but thanks for the advice. Might be an option
People should not be rude about McDonald's - try reading this

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mcdonalds-be.../dp/0553347594

turns out that about one in ten US people have worked in McDonald's. Here in the UK I just had some work in Pizza Hut but it's the same principle, learning discipline re time keeping, reliability and why doing **** work for **** money for the rest of your life is not great.

Though tbf to Ronald they have taken many from burger flipper in to senior management, supported others in to franchises that made flippers millionaires and had a policy to get black francisees and managers in to shops before anyone invented positive discrimination as a phrase to be shot at.

Meanwhile the serious point is that yes, any restrictions could hurt s/w suppliers, especially small scale mom and pop add on suppliers. Thing is we have what is now a pretty mature market, indeed with the merger on HEM & PT we have a monopoly supplier situation - for them - and anyone supplying them with add on stuff a new regime with authorised s/w works well, indeed better.

Let's be honest, we know that those blokes in Kazhakstan are using a pirate version, no paying a fee every six months to HEM, with a proper approved software regime with s/w and data verification Stars gets to add a user ID check into the agreement too - no valid licence, s/w licence does not match the player I/D ooops sorry cannot play with the prate s/w running. Turns out that a regulated regime with Stars as the Quasi Regulator restricting the power of HEM et al means that HEM et al get MORE money too.

Bloody capitalism, who'd believe it, you play by the rules, provide a legitimate service that people want and there is a chance you can make money. Dealling with crims and cheaters....not so much. We are in to a mature market, it is about time some market participants grew up too.
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Old 06-19-2015, 02:50 PM   #1322
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

offer withdrawn
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Old 06-19-2015, 03:01 PM   #1323
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by L.K. View Post
I don't understand this. How come? It's not necessary to play the game, it's not part of the online service that hosts the tables. When online poker started there were no HUDs but came afterwards. The community just made it "being part of the game". The game rules don't tell you a pair is higher then high card and you should get a tracker but it's optional though
It's part of the game because it's a game played on a computer. Any reasonable person playing any game on a computer for money will expect their opponents to take reasonable measures to give themselves an advantage - whether it's buying a specialist mouse in competitive gaming, or whether it's the use of a HUD in online poker. It also makes online poker substantially more enjoyable, whether the money factor is taken into account or not, and removes this bull**** 'game of people' image that poker has, getting it closer to the purely mathematical game it is and ought to be.
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Old 06-19-2015, 03:02 PM   #1324
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Wow, I don't think I've ever sounded so autistic.
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Old 06-19-2015, 03:12 PM   #1325
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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i'm in your ram killing your dudes.

note that i will not repeat my offer to PM a third time.
Seriously dude if you have owt to say to me via PM, say it. As a hint sentences would be nice.
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