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Old 06-19-2015, 08:02 AM   #1251
Burnss
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by KDash View Post
So, i really hope that PS is going to be smart enough to not punish all their regs because of 5/6 recreationnals who had a feeling (probably the same kind of feeling that they have when they raise/call 42s from EP), and realize where is their best interest/the best interest of their regs.
lmfao youre an idiot
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Old 06-19-2015, 08:04 AM   #1252
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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lmfao youre an idiot
lmfao another rec with no arguments.
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Old 06-19-2015, 08:06 AM   #1253
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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lmfao another rec with no arguments.
yes im a rec who plays poker for a living. if you honestly believe that the people who are saying NC is bad is 5/6 "recs" itt, then you are well and truly an idiot
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Old 06-19-2015, 08:07 AM   #1254
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by FR-Nit View Post
[/B]This post is not only dumb, it's also unrealistic. You expect Stars to announce the total ban of NoteCaddy? Let me help you with some scenarios:


Stars announces the ban of HUDs and all related software
Getting hit by a lightning is more likely than that. Ain't gonna happen, sry for you.

Stars doesn't put any restrictions on the 3rd party software in question
Probably a 10% chance for this to happen. Stars is somewhat in the corner of having to act in some way.

Stars will change ToS in a way that will require minor changes to trackers and programs like NoteCaddy to be compliant
The most realistic outcome. Appeases somewhat everyone as both sides get something. One side wins by being able to continue their soft (but with reduced functionality) and the other side can book a win by seeing the power of software limited/reduced. The radical u-turn which some of the posters are cheering (like total ban of HUDs) for is completely unrealistic and is not going to happen. A company from the size of Stars can't make such radical changes in any direction. There's too much revenue at stake.
Yes, NC will have to be changed to be compliant. PS Steve already said that himself in the op.

"• NoteCaddy as is would require changes."

In the end, NC wont be like it is today and thats the point isnt it. Hopefully NC gets chopped to being a glorified HUD.

But lets just wait and see what PS announces and what they require NC to revamp. As for you saying for both sides getting something... that doesnt makes sense at all. Whats right is right, it isnt a negotiation. Also just because PS doesnt chop software aids hard doesnt mean its not wrong. As you said PS is a business looking at its self interest. Rake is how PS profits and software allows mass multi tabling. they will decide whats in its best self interest which will obviously allow software with conditions. That doesnt make it right/fair though; the world goes. life isnt fair is it?

But lets play what if scenario. If no other factors mattered, like PS only profited by subscription and no rake. PS without a doubt would chop software as there are more recs than regs to keep the games going.
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Old 06-19-2015, 08:10 AM   #1255
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I think people have started to cool off, so I don't see any reason to restart those flame wars Since pretty much everything has been said, resaid and reasoned by both parties. It's obvious the nerfing of super tools is not supported just by "5/6 recs" and PS can see that clearly. Chill pills for everyone!
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Old 06-19-2015, 08:14 AM   #1256
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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I am against what's called 'anonymous tables' concept. It's just looks and feels ugly. Just too extreme. There is no need to go there and in my opinion it is a bad idea/policy for a site with, still, so much traffic as PokerStars.

Also there is no need to ban tracking software like PT or HEM which you can use for both tracking your results and working on your game OUTSIDE the tables, while NOT playing. That's totally fine.

But to consciously allow software like skier's and some other mentioned both in OP and in this thread is like giving licence to cheat. To let people use software that makes decisions for them ??!?!?!? What is wrong with you pokerstars ??? How and why you are so hesitating with this issue ???? The solution should be obvious - Do NOT allow the use of them. You do have the methods to prevent it, if you just wanted to, you proved it so many times before.

ANY 3rd party software which helps players DURING games should NOT be allowed. It's just common sense. And I don't know/understand what there is to talk about it. It's just common sense. To allow it is the exact same thing as allowing the use of steroids for athletes. And even if you go with the (stupid) argument : "But it's available for everyone", it's still shouldn't be allowed. Why all the sports organizations are fighting against the use of drugs that improves results ? They can say to everyone it is ok, and then everyone is even and it's a zero sum game. But they don't. Because they do understand that it's just WRONG.

But we also do know as a fact that not everyone all these software, and we do know that a lot, if not most, of recreational players are not even aware of the existence of them which by itself puts them in a massive disadvantage position. But you can be sure, that as soon as some of them are becoming aware, they are stop playing. Not all of them, sure, but a lot of them. And NO, they won't start using them, because they came to play for FUN. This game was so much fun once, online poker was so much fun.

Online poker should be played and give the feeling exactly as live poker. There is no reason in the world why you should allow some greedy, clueless people (players) the tools to win money from others just because they are incapable of beating their competition on their own. It's just UNfair and makes no sense.

During the last 5-6 years there were so many scandals evolving around online poker. So many cheating scandals. And so many other scandals. so much shadiness. I don't think there was one single piece of big and good news for online poker during this time. So MANY recreational players ran away out of this environment, you can't imagine. A lot of it has to do with all these greedy, unethical and incapable "players" who just drove them away with their behavior. A lot of it also has to do with a lot of people who exploited this environment do create all that software, and all the training sites, etc. They lost the ability (or never had) to beat the game itself and started to look for some other ways to make profits out of this economy. But for them I have zero complains. really.
But it also has to do with the operating sites, of course, who did not create strong enough ethics policies (at least in regards to the use of 3rd party software), or did not enforce them well enough.

Do you really think all those recreational (wealthy) players lost all of their money and that's the reason they left ? Do you really think they are all SO stupid that they don't have a clue of what's going on ? NO. The best and most obvious example that comes to mind is Guy Laliberte who in public interview expressed his feelings about it. That's a recreational player who really loved online poker (and still loves and plays poker, just not online) and was playing on a daily basis. Where is he now ? There are tons of players exactly like him who were playing at 1/2, 2/4, etc (the only difference is the money proportions). A lot of them just got tired of all this bull****. No one likes the feeling of being cheated, in any way or form. Especially people with money, with lots of money.

You don't even need to put your finger on the exact reasons as to why the player pools are shrinking in recent years instead of growing. And I believe those recreational players can't put their finger on the EXACT reason/s that drove them away of online poker. It's either the 3rd party software, either table scripts, either the insta sit outs after the fish leaves the table (or while he is sitting out at the table), or the HU scene full of pure bumhunters/angle shooters (at least below 10/20). I know I stopped playing HU because of it. It's all of these reasons (the combination of them is toxic). All of it created a scummy environment that drove so many players, both grinders and recreational players, away. You can't put your finger on what affected/s it the most, but you do feel it, you do feel the scummy environment around online poker.

Pokerstars, you should go back to basics. You should bring ONLINE poker back to basics. To what it was once - A pure game of poker. First step would be to strongly change your policy about the use of ALL third party software DURING play.
THIS!!!!
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Old 06-19-2015, 08:16 AM   #1257
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by djle2 View Post
Yes, NC will have to be changed to be compliant. PS Steve already said that himself in the op.

"• NoteCaddy as is would require changes."

In the end, NC wont be like it is today and thats the point isnt it. Hopefully NC gets chopped to being a glorified HUD.
Now you are speaking in the name of Steve from PS and making him lie...Unfortunately, you forgot a few words he said :

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerStars Steve View Post
If these changes are implemented.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerStars Steve View Post
Before implementing any new rules, we would like to hear from you, the players, as to what you think about the proposed changes. We will give you a period of 10 days for you to discuss and share opinions before we make a final decision.
Please STOP to try to manipulate people with all your lies.

Last edited by KDash; 06-19-2015 at 08:27 AM.
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Old 06-19-2015, 08:17 AM   #1258
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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But lets play what if scenario.
Not participating in visionary what-if talks. I like to quote in this context the former German chancellor Helmut Schmidt:

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Visions? Somebody who has visions should visit a doctor.
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Old 06-19-2015, 08:55 AM   #1259
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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This is wrong. If Stars allows US back in without change it's just more of the same. Look at WPN; they model their rewards system after Stars and the games are terrible. Bovada has a sustainable model with 4 table cap, anonymous tables, and very limited sw options. 95% of my action is on Bovada because of this.

P.s. the US players are never coming back and at this point I'm glad, i won't have to play against an army of euro cy- bots.

P.p.s. All you guys saying sw isn't the problem are half right. It's sw + rewards system + no limits on tables. They all work together to destroy the ecosystem.

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This could be because of the VIP system but it also could be because WPN allows internationals. Same with Chico, it could be the high rakeback but it could also be the international players.

Pure american sites are always extremely soft no matter the VIP system. Party nj, WSOP NJ, WSOP NV, Bovada, Merge

It's pretty much the same in Italy and france. No matter the VIP system, if other euros (german/swedes/russian etc) can get on the network, the games suck. If they cant they are amazing.

Canada, USA, France and Italian networks band together with only basic HEM and PT4 and online poker is saved for poker pros.

edit: thinking of it there's skypoker in UK that's also extremely soft. Any site that doesnt allow swedes/russians/germans/eastern euros is amazing.
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Old 06-19-2015, 09:25 AM   #1260
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Canada, USA, France and Italian networks band together with only basic HEM and PT4 and online poker is saved for poker pros.

edit: thinking of it there's skypoker in UK that's also extremely soft. Any site that doesnt allow swedes/russians/germans/eastern euros is amazing.
It's not rocket-science to conclude that ringfenced pools with players from countries with high disposable incomes will be softer.

Btw, are you not one of those calling for a ban of NoteCaddy? Because you care sooooo sooo much about the future health of the game? You care about your bottom line, that's all!
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Old 06-19-2015, 09:28 AM   #1261
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Im calling for a ban on everyone earning from poker players.
Affiliates, script makers, poker tools.
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Old 06-19-2015, 09:35 AM   #1262
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

As one of the 5/6 recs who give a stuff enough to post here please consider how you might get a reunited US player pool, never mind a global pool again.

We have three states that let US players play poker online.

Oh look, Nevada, bans HUDs and tracking and data on hands, New Jersey let's it happen.

Now if you want shared pools that means shared rules on this. NJ/Nevada - nah, unless the shared pool always goes for the maximum restriction. If you want some s/w take the compromise hit, otherwise every regulator adds to the restrictions for a shared player pool. Yo can have compromise or you can have the most restricted regime dictating for the whole pool. Your choice.
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Old 06-19-2015, 09:35 AM   #1263
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

LOL, you are calling for a ban of tools which you don't use because you expect to improve your position in the food chain. Nothing wrong with that, just pointing out your reasoning.
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Old 06-19-2015, 09:40 AM   #1264
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I use those tools quite a lot. I don't need them to win though. Removing them will make the games more fun for me and the recs.
Those that NEED those tools will move down 2 to 5 limits when they are gone.
Almost every winning player that wants the tools removed are good winners and almost every guy for these tools are small winners. There's a patern. Find it.
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Old 06-19-2015, 09:41 AM   #1265
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by 4-Star General View Post
Are you guys continue talking about banning HUDs, make the table anonymous and so on, with the BOT scandal? After they have taken out about 5M out of poker economy?lol nonsense, if you ban the HUDs and tracker in general, BOTs and cheaters will thrive.
i don't think it's that simple. All decisions are a matter of trade-offs. While the ability of the PLO bot ring to continue operating for so long is a worrisome development, does Pokerstars not have a decent track record in this department? I thought I read somewhere that Pokerstars claimed to catch 95% of bots on their own. If that is true, then the impact of removing players' ability to catch bots may not be that high. Sure some money will be taken out of the game by that 5%, but how much is taken out by people cheating with datamined data or population tendencies? I reckon it could easily be an order of magnitude more than that 5% of bots take out of the game. Consider team Cardrunners vs Isildur. How much extra money did those guys alone win by sharing data? Data and population tendency cheating is done at a massive scale. The sheer frequency of it could dwarf the money made my bots.
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Old 06-19-2015, 09:48 AM   #1266
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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I thought I read somewhere that Pokerstars claimed to catch 95% of bots on their own.
How do you determine the percentage of an unknown number? Do you expect Stars to say: "Hey, no clue, maybe we catch 20%, maybe 80 or 95". 95% sounds good and is pure PR. To state "We catch xy percent of all bots" is utter nonsense as it would require to know the number of bots.
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Old 06-19-2015, 09:48 AM   #1267
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Ya, I mentioned this earlier. Site wide anonymous daily profiles might work. Similar to how when we sit down to play a board game we choose a player piece. Allow users to choose their personal avatar/screen name each session and have it displayed across all tables. A bit more personal than looking at "Seat 4" and I think important in certain formats such as multi-table tournaments where we are constantly be moved to new tables, sometimes with players we will have previously played with on other tables. Let us maintain our reads on those players by preserving the anonymous name throughout.
Yeah, I agree. The MTT point is especially good.


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Originally Posted by cneuy3 View Post
Just have your log in id reflected on the leaderboards, etc. I don't see why this information has to be hidden.
That's a great point and better imo.

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Originally Posted by cneuy3 View Post
Why not all formats? Why let super HuDs still be so effective in scheduled tourneys. Just keep with the anonymous by session, day, month, or whatever format.
I don't mind that either, but was offering it up as an option as in case Pokerstars believes some formats receive benefits from a lifetime screen name. I would argue that in MTTs sample sizes are lower (and more situations unique even at similar stack depths) and it's harder to control who you play with as well.
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Old 06-19-2015, 09:53 AM   #1268
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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How do you determine the percentage of an unknown number? Do you expect Stars to say: "Hey, no clue, maybe we catch 20%, maybe 80 or 95". 95% sounds good and is pure PR. To state "We catch xy percent of all bots" is utter nonsense.
I believe that of the bots caught, they were saying 95% were caught by Pokerstars without player intervention. I agree that it's unknowable how many bots are actually caught compared to how many there are total. However, since the uncaught bots are operating in both scenarios {lifetime screen name, anonymous} their existence has no impact on the decision between the two.
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Old 06-19-2015, 09:57 AM   #1269
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by FR-Nit View Post
How do you determine the percentage of an unknown number? Do you expect Stars to say: "Hey, no clue, maybe we catch 20%, maybe 80 or 95". 95% sounds good and is pure PR. To state "We catch xy percent of all bots" is utter nonsense as it would require to know the number of bots.
That's not the point. Point is out of the total number of cheaters caught, 95% of the cases were caught by PokerStars. At least that is what they claim. Only 5% are from ones such as the current scandal brought about from the players.

Last edited by cneuy3; 06-19-2015 at 09:59 AM. Reason: oops, skier beat me, delete my post mod
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Old 06-19-2015, 10:02 AM   #1270
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Both of you are right
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Old 06-19-2015, 10:04 AM   #1271
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by MX210 View Post
Those that NEED those tools will move down 2 to 5 limits when they are gone.

Almost every winning player that wants the tools removed are good winners and almost every guy for these tools are small winners. There's a patern. Find it.
Nailed it. Hard.
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Old 06-19-2015, 10:25 AM   #1272
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

The following is surely the post of a genius!

Pokerstars - please, please listen to the considered thinking of an extremely clever man, and not just, without disrespect, to the emotionally inspired clatter of the crowd:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcos Sketch View Post
I mainly agree with those Pokerstars proposals, but I'd like to address a lot of peoples' posts that talk about "pure poker" and this kind of stuff.

1- "BAN ALL SOFTWARE, BRING POKER BACK TO ITS PURE FORM".
People have a tendency to think "pure = better", "old = good etc". But just like the huge number of audiophiles insisting vinyl sounds better than CD/digital, it's usually baseless. We should understand that online poker is NOT live poker.

Therefore, this quest for purity is pointless. It's meant to be - as it should! - a different game, with a different set of information available, even though it's based on the live game. There's dozens of things specific to online poker that are awesome and don't exist in the live setting. If we make changes only aiming at "purity", we'd take away a big part of the overall fun. Therefore, I strongly disagree with the notion that if we ban all software, it will be "real poker" again. It IS real Poker now, real *online* poker. Online shopping isn't real shopping, online meetings aren't real meetings, and I don't want to be as limited on ebay as I am on a phisical store. Aiming at purity is utopia, it's pretending technology doesn't exist and making a rule not to use it - like the record industry did when banning Napster, as if it would just go away. Making the game more enjoyable and fair to everyone, bringing more rec players, I'm all for it, but making the game "more pure"? Bull****.

2- "SOFTWARES AREN'T FAIR"
The argument that all software should be banned because rec players aren't using it is logically flawed. The same base could be used to almost everything that helps people to play better. You could argue that video schools aren't fair because 60-year-old rec players haven't heard of it, forum discussions aren't fair because they don't have the patience to use forums, nor note-taking skills, multitabling that leads you to improve faster, and then on. Practicing with Pokerstove, learning to use a HUD, making EV calculations are all inherent skills to being a better online poker player, and also a better poker player. Most rec players won't use those software? I know, but they also won't review sessions, won't hire coaching, won't do EV calculations, won't try to learn about GTO etc. And it won't ever be unfair if other players are doing that. In all business fields, there's a lot of competitive advantage you could gain by putting more effort into it, and even though they're available to everyone, just a few will use them. It's the same here. It's also a complete fallacy that rec players don't know about the existance of those software or feel cheated by it. They just don't wanna use it (as a relatively decent portion of winning HS regs also don't), but whenever they decide to "take it seriously", it'd be available to any of them, quick and relatively cheap.

3- "HUDS ARE CHEATING".
I can say with a big certainty that 95% of the people who use a HUD do so incorrectly, aren't able to correctly interpret the stats, or make a lot of WORSE decisions due to what they see in the HUD. These numbers don't play by themselves. Knowing what to do with that info is a big skill that few get right. When you're playing a game without a HUD (say, live), the info available to you is the same to everyone, but people will still take different decisions when interpreting that info. Having the info displayed on your screen will help you but only if you learn how to use it, just the same as playing 16 tables will make you win more but only if you have multitabling skills. This is just another leg for online poker.

4- REAL FAIRNESS
I don't believe "banning everything" would be enforceable. In those cases, the best way to make it fair isn't banning everything, but making it available to everyone AND promoting it. There was the time when video schools were the #1 skill-gap-increasers, until FullTilt and Pokerstars partnered with them. I believe this is the way - as well as I believe the greatest changes Stars' software has ever made were the ones implementing stuff people were already doing with scripts, like hotkeys, bet-slider, seating smoothness, percentage of winning, run it twice etc. The market and offer/demand laws usually are correct.
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Old 06-19-2015, 10:30 AM   #1273
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by cneuy3 View Post
That's not the point. Point is out of the total number of cheaters caught, 95% of the cases were caught by PokerStars. At least that is what they claim. Only 5% are from ones such as the current scandal brought about from the players.
And yet that 5% could have taken millions out of the game. And that's only the ones we know about...
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Old 06-19-2015, 10:33 AM   #1274
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by devera View Post
Nailed it. Hard.
No, it's complete nonsense. Read the whole thread and if you know some mid- to high-stakes REGs you'll see that this statement is nonsense. And don't tell me that those people only play these stakes because they have NoteCaddy
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Old 06-19-2015, 10:35 AM   #1275
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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How do you determine the percentage of an unknown number?
its a stars quote. i remember claim being 90-95% (ish). obv not a meaningful number in isolation.
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