so true

Pokerstars,

I would like to amend my post above as I'm +1 on all the posts questioning whether "Huds, charts and software etc" are even a significant factor that contribute to poker's economic challenges.

can we get a ban on SNs below 500 in this? its just to easy to rip them apart and this somehow spoils the fun in thread poker. oh and before i forget ..ban software so we don't have to to play thread poker ..you kow ..deposits and all.

While we are talking about this thread, how about we try and just submit constructive posts that solve the problem/perceived problems and eliminate the dick measuring contests where people debate ideas in a circular manner over pages and pages.

I'm slightly confused as to wether programs like HEM an PT4 will still be legal to use? Or are you considering those to be probibited completely? No HUDS or "get hands while playing" etc.

Also, if you prohibit these, how can and will you actually enforce it?

My stanice? I've used PT4 for years and would like to continue using it.

Guess we're kind of left to speculate about PS' interests Was *trying* to think of what it is that had them interested in making some of those changes because ... is this the first time they've considered putting restrictions on software that's been permitted for a long time? If not the first, it seems like something that maybe doesn't happen all that often anyways?




Guess if $ is the main concern and not fairness per se, maybe it's much less likely that PS'll be interested in ever banning HUDs, making tables anonymous, etc - because of the danger that there'd be less volume put in by regulars?

Even putting restrictions on Note Caddy seems like it might be a bit risky, when it's unknown how high-volume players might react in terms of putting in volume at the tables on PS?

But if they have other big concerns, guess there's always a chance the changes could wind up different from what's listed in the OP ...


Maybe it's more accurate to say that recs are especially valued in this day and age because they've become more rare, which has put the system out of balance, or something like that? But that regulars are the backbone of PS's bottom line, so they matter too?

Like even though #regs > #recs, the reward system has been set up to give multi-tablers the best rake discounts ... although *sometimes* there's deposit bonuses. Guess it's a bit tricky because good players do scare away new players - but new players don't tend to play nearly as much, so ...


Oh, my tourney's starting ...

.... This is supposedly to help address the bot issue - http://www.pokernews.com/news/2015/0...ndal-21935.htm

Oh, think I saw the link posted earlier in the thread but didn't read the article - will do that now, ty!


Didn't want to make a new post just to add this, but your summary of the big themes was great - really enjoyed that!

I am against what's called 'anonymous tables' concept. It's just looks and feels ugly. Just too extreme. There is no need to go there and in my opinion it is a bad idea/policy for a site with, still, so much traffic as PokerStars.

Also there is no need to ban tracking software like PT or HEM which you can use for both tracking your results and working on your game OUTSIDE the tables, while NOT playing. That's totally fine.

But to consciously allow software like skier's and some other mentioned both in OP and in this thread is like giving licence to cheat. To let people use software that makes decisions for them ??!?!?!? What is wrong with you pokerstars ??? How and why you are so hesitating with this issue ???? The solution should be obvious - Do NOT allow the use of them. You do have the methods to prevent it, if you just wanted to, you proved it so many times before.

ANY 3rd party software which helps players DURING games should NOT be allowed. It's just common sense. And I don't know/understand what there is to talk about it. It's just common sense. To allow it is the exact same thing as allowing the use of steroids for athletes. And even if you go with the (stupid) argument : "But it's available for everyone", it's still shouldn't be allowed. Why all the sports organizations are fighting against the use of drugs that improves results ? They can say to everyone it is ok, and then everyone is even and it's a zero sum game. But they don't. Because they do understand that it's just WRONG.

But we also do know as a fact that not everyone all these software, and we do know that a lot, if not most, of recreational players are not even aware of the existence of them which by itself puts them in a massive disadvantage position. But you can be sure, that as soon as some of them are becoming aware, they are stop playing. Not all of them, sure, but a lot of them. And NO, they won't start using them, because they came to play for FUN. This game was so much fun once, online poker was so much fun.

Online poker should be played and give the feeling exactly as live poker. There is no reason in the world why you should allow some greedy, clueless people (players) the tools to win money from others just because they are incapable of beating their competition on their own. It's just UNfair and makes no sense.

During the last 5-6 years there were so many scandals evolving around online poker. So many cheating scandals. And so many other scandals. so much shadiness. I don't think there was one single piece of big and good news for online poker during this time. So MANY recreational players ran away out of this environment, you can't imagine. A lot of it has to do with all these greedy, unethical and incapable "players" who just drove them away with their behavior. A lot of it also has to do with a lot of people who exploited this environment do create all that software, and all the training sites, etc. They lost the ability (or never had) to beat the game itself and started to look for some other ways to make profits out of this economy. But for them I have zero complains. really.
But it also has to do with the operating sites, of course, who did not create strong enough ethics policies (at least in regards to the use of 3rd party software), or did not enforce them well enough.

Do you really think all those recreational (wealthy) players lost all of their money and that's the reason they left ? Do you really think they are all SO stupid that they don't have a clue of what's going on ? NO. The best and most obvious example that comes to mind is Guy Laliberte who in public interview expressed his feelings about it. That's a recreational player who really loved online poker (and still loves and plays poker, just not online) and was playing on a daily basis. Where is he now ? There are tons of players exactly like him who were playing at 1/2, 2/4, etc (the only difference is the money proportions). A lot of them just got tired of all this bull****. No one likes the feeling of being cheated, in any way or form. Especially people with money, with lots of money.

You don't even need to put your finger on the exact reasons as to why the player pools are shrinking in recent years instead of growing. And I believe those recreational players can't put their finger on the EXACT reason/s that drove them away of online poker. It's either the 3rd party software, either table scripts, either the insta sit outs after the fish leaves the table (or while he is sitting out at the table), or the HU scene full of pure bumhunters/angle shooters (at least below 10/20). I know I stopped playing HU because of it. It's all of these reasons (the combination of them is toxic). All of it created a scummy environment that drove so many players, both grinders and recreational players, away. You can't put your finger on what affected/s it the most, but you do feel it, you do feel the scummy environment around online poker.

Pokerstars, you should go back to basics. You should bring ONLINE poker back to basics. To what it was once - A pure game of poker. First step would be to strongly change your policy about the use of ALL third party software DURING play.

stats and charts to improve your game and skills for those diehard players is understandable they want to get better and maximize their chance of profits.

however imo- online poker is no longer poker. its no longer a game of skill but more-so who has the best software and can use it the best. its really a tough spot as some do point out certain software has helped catch some bots which for whatever reason some sites seem too reliant on the players to call these accounts to their attention.

i would love to see the 3rd software restricted to more basic forms again but i dont think it will happen. imo- online poker should be like playing live. no computer sitting next to you to tell you what to do

you're always going to have people abusing the system and cheating when money is concerned. no matter what the restrictions are you r going to have people using secondary and 3rd 4th computers with who knows how many charts and programs running to give them an edge. thats a fact.

i doubt with all the other aspects ($$$$$) involved with the software and those companies potential influence we'd ever see all software getting banned.

Yes there are many bigger reasons why poker is in decline. Doesnt mean you ignore the problems that isnt the biggest. This is something that does affect pokers survival at its core. Segregation which has greatly affected poker is not really within PS's control. They can lobby and do what they can but this software banning is something they can do.

Also just because enforcement is difficult doesn't mean it shouldnt be a rule/law. When this rule comes in place, people hav ethe choice to follow it or not. Those who dont; know there are consequences for not following. Yes they at that time will have an advantage over the regs who follow but in the end, there will be less regs playing like a bot. In time, those who cheated will get caught. In the end. it is still better for the game/recs as there is less player bots and yes its unfair for those who follow the rules. Tough, life isnt fair is it. Break the rules if you so wish.

Everything has been said already here. i hope stars can make the right decisions regarding the software a lot of people use.
I hope stars can bring back poker as it is supposed to be played, without any helping software.There are way too many multitabling Hud-bots, espescially on Stars, and i feel that longterm it is healthier for the poker ecology, if just all software is banned, including trackers which are not supported at all sites, so it is possible i guess.

Everything has been said, but you seem to remember nothing which has been said.

Who cares about what you feel really ?

But...as you said, everything has been said. It is pointless to keep answering the same 5/6 anti-softwares monks who are flooding this thread with 20 messages a day, harping their recreationnal "feelings" as if they were a revealed truth from some kind of religion, without any logic to ever back it up. And since everything has been said and resaid, nobody wants to take the time to answer them anymore since they obviously won't get it and don't want to get it.

I think this thread should be closed.

I think it was really because of Skier's software rather than the bot issue. It came about as Skier had asked PS if his software was legal, PS said it was and then there was a large debate/ discussion by others who felt it shouldn't be.

looking forward to monday decision now...

Can anyone plz tell me how is PT4 leak tracker helps to make a better decision ? this is useless option i think

I don't think they intend on banning it on the basis that it's being used now as a leak finder while at the tables, but they're thinking ahead - "PT leak tracker can help you identify leaks in your game and your opponents', maybe now it can't be used on the spot, to get an unfair advantage while playing, but maybe future updates will allow users to do that much easier while playing". Which makes total sense, considering the direction they intend on heading into. They're trying to cover all their bases, which is a good thing.

You're not gonna use PT leak tracker live anyways, are you? So then there's no reason to oppose such a restriction, which is primarily imposed with the future in mind.

Its going to take longer than Monday for PS to make a decision. So you NC lovers, should start 16 hr sessions while you can before the grace period ends.

have the rep reports already been posted?

+1 for banning ALL 3rd party software. All of them.

Make poker enjoyable again!

the reg with the best strat/gameplan and ability to adjust using only his own mind through observation should have the highest winrate.

Regs who gameplans mostly resolve around software should not have the highest winrate.

thats all i have to say i guess. gg you NC scum

This post is not only dumb, it's also unrealistic. You expect Stars to announce the total ban of NoteCaddy? Let me help you with some scenarios:


Stars announces the ban of HUDs and all related software
Getting hit by a lightning is more likely than that. Ain't gonna happen, sry for you.

Stars doesn't put any restrictions on the 3rd party software in question
Probably a 10% chance for this to happen. Stars is somewhat in the corner of having to act in some way.

Stars will change ToS in a way that will require minor changes to trackers and programs like NoteCaddy to be compliant
The most realistic outcome. Appeases somewhat everyone as both sides get something. One side wins by being able to continue their soft (but with reduced functionality) and the other side can book a win by seeing the power of software limited/reduced. The radical u-turn which some of the posters are cheering (like total ban of HUDs) for is completely unrealistic and is not going to happen. A company from the size of Stars can't make such radical changes in any direction. There's too much revenue at stake.

this will happen. yeh talk of banning huds is pointless. but we can all dream

That is indeed the most likely course of action, imo. And the most balanced and sane.

If I were in NC developers' shoes, I'd start working on versioning and testing, as I don't expect a huge grace period if PS decides to forbid badges, graphs, heat maps etc. And tbh, it shouldn't be a herculean task to restrict those modules for a PS-approved version of NC.

Sometimes lighting strikes all of a sudden and burns down a whole forest. But the new one to grow instead is always healthier and stronger than the one that burnt.

That's the whole issue of this thread : it has been spamed by 5/6 recreationnals who are looking for something to blame for their negative winrate (can't be because they are just bad at poker), and who feel like (no proof of course) they are loosing because of those horrible nasty regs who are using a HUD/NC.
But if PS decided to ban partially / totally HUD/NC, they would turn back to a positive winrate in the blink of an eye (even though 1) the only serious study made on the subject is showing the opposite and 2) Some rooms are already offering this so why the **** don't they go there instead of trying to mess up PS ?), because you know, they are just so good at poker and those nasty regs are so bad and only winning because of their HUDs/NC...

So, i really hope that PS is going to be smart enough to not punish all their regs because of 5/6 recreationnals who had a feeling (probably the same kind of feeling that they have when they raise/call 42s from EP), and realize where is their best interest/the best interest of their regs.