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Old 06-18-2015, 07:21 PM   #1226
fish_but_lucky
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by alternative 3 View Post
New players? New fish? People who rarely ever play? They dont even CARE ABOUT ALL THIS HERE. Jesus christ some posts are just so ... omg. Why are people here seriously talking about Tracker in general. Totally standard software that the majority of players are using since ages. Which has helped our understanding of the game a lot, and not only gives us an advantage.

I'm totally against this whole bias that is going on here. I hope PokerStars wont be fooled by a few players who are abusing the current situation for crying their soul out.
so true
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Old 06-18-2015, 08:04 PM   #1227
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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I think the following themes are consistently appearing throughout this thread:

• The bot/”in hand advice” threat: the major concern of the community is the Bot threat and we are all concerned that Pokerstars is not performing well in this area as 2+2ers seem to be the primary source of bot detection

• General software sophistication: the initial concern of skiers’ software has now been matched by concern of the tools players use to exploit each other - in particular Huds and data mining (either illegally purchased or combined as part of a large population tendency database as per the smartspins example).


• Enforcement Issues: related to the sophistication point above, any attempt to limit static tables and voice recognition will be easily overcome by cheaters through the purchase of a 2nd computer (to the post above, it’s just as easy to play on 2 computers as it is on 2 monitors) or through printed charts. Also, any attempts to restrict Huds interpretation of hands already played will unfairly disadvantage the commercial hud operators and effectively create a black market in Huds.

• Turn off all data in game or allow anonymous tables/name changes: Either of these options will level the playing field between rec and regs as it ensures recreational players aren’t max exploited the instant they sit down at the table and it eliminates the player based data mining issue. However, I don’t see Pokerstars making transformational changes to their business so may not be viable to implement – at least in the medium term.

So what should Pokerstars do?
• Work out how they can better track bots and/or in hand advice

• Allow preflop static tables, sophisticated HUDs and post hand advice to continue. This will allow the battle between GTO players and max exploit players to continue and let them/us sort this out. Understand that these models are getting very sophisticated and are potentially utilising data that is “mined” but also appreciate that you cannot get good through software and data alone. Players need to study incredibly hard to be able to get these tools to work so the smartest and hardest working will be the most successful.

• Don't get pressured into rushing any rule changes over the short term and if any rules are introduced, ensure they are enforceable and consistent across all tools. On that note, for the people saying “enforceability of new rules doesn’t matter” are basically facilitating the transfer of funds from a whole bunch of fair people to a whole bunch of unsophisticated cheats (for the reasons outlined above).
Pokerstars,

I would like to amend my post above as I'm +1 on all the posts questioning whether "Huds, charts and software etc" are even a significant factor that contribute to poker's economic challenges.
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Old 06-18-2015, 08:15 PM   #1228
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

can we get a ban on SNs below 500 in this? its just to easy to rip them apart and this somehow spoils the fun in thread poker. oh and before i forget ..ban software so we don't have to to play thread poker ..you kow ..deposits and all.
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Old 06-18-2015, 08:23 PM   #1229
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

While we are talking about this thread, how about we try and just submit constructive posts that solve the problem/perceived problems and eliminate the dick measuring contests where people debate ideas in a circular manner over pages and pages.
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Old 06-18-2015, 08:47 PM   #1230
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I'm slightly confused as to wether programs like HEM an PT4 will still be legal to use? Or are you considering those to be probibited completely? No HUDS or "get hands while playing" etc.

Also, if you prohibit these, how can and will you actually enforce it?

My stanice? I've used PT4 for years and would like to continue using it.
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Old 06-18-2015, 09:00 PM   #1231
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by fish_but_lucky View Post
why is there a debate about hud and notecaddy killing the game(or not), or how to keep recreational player happy and how , or how to "save online poker" etc? i think it was not op's concern in this thread but some people jump on the occasion to try to serve their own interset.

Guess we're kind of left to speculate about PS' interests Was *trying* to think of what it is that had them interested in making some of those changes because ... is this the first time they've considered putting restrictions on software that's been permitted for a long time? If not the first, it seems like something that maybe doesn't happen all that often anyways?


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Originally Posted by iamblackornot View Post
4. room 1st priority is profit, that's why while claiming to improve poker ecology they introduce and promote stuff like zoom, spin'n'goes that dry out sng and cash pools, reducing edge, killing "the spirit thing" (table dynamics) and slightly turning poker into a semi-casino. seems like they want to take maximum money out poker as quickly as they can and leave a dead corpse.


Guess if $ is the main concern and not fairness per se, maybe it's much less likely that PS'll be interested in ever banning HUDs, making tables anonymous, etc - because of the danger that there'd be less volume put in by regulars?

Even putting restrictions on Note Caddy seems like it might be a bit risky, when it's unknown how high-volume players might react in terms of putting in volume at the tables on PS?

But if they have other big concerns, guess there's always a chance the changes could wind up different from what's listed in the OP ...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Richas View Post
The poker ecosystem is built on just one key group - losing players. They pay all the bills, they keep you fed, they keep PokerStars employees in work and Amaya shareholders invested. Without the recs/fish the whole thing collapses.
Maybe it's more accurate to say that recs are especially valued in this day and age because they've become more rare, which has put the system out of balance, or something like that? But that regulars are the backbone of PS's bottom line, so they matter too?

Like even though #regs > #recs, the reward system has been set up to give multi-tablers the best rake discounts ... although *sometimes* there's deposit bonuses. Guess it's a bit tricky because good players do scare away new players - but new players don't tend to play nearly as much, so ...


Oh, my tourney's starting ...

Last edited by TrustySam; 06-18-2015 at 09:16 PM.
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Old 06-18-2015, 09:04 PM   #1232
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

....
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
Guess we're kind of left to speculate about PS' interests Was *trying* to think of what it is that had them interesting in making some of those changes because ... is this the first time they've considered putting restrictions on software that's been permitted for a long time? If not the first, it seems like something that maybe doesn't happen all that often anyways?
.... ...
This is supposedly to help address the bot issue - http://www.pokernews.com/news/2015/0...ndal-21935.htm
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Old 06-18-2015, 09:18 PM   #1233
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by fozzy71 View Post
....

This is supposedly to help address the bot issue - http://www.pokernews.com/news/2015/0...ndal-21935.htm
Oh, think I saw the link posted earlier in the thread but didn't read the article - will do that now, ty!


Quote:
Originally Posted by pies01 View Post
While we are talking about this thread, how about we try and just submit constructive posts that solve the problem/perceived problems and eliminate the dick measuring contests where people debate ideas in a circular manner over pages and pages.
Didn't want to make a new post just to add this, but your summary of the big themes was great - really enjoyed that!
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Old 06-18-2015, 09:46 PM   #1234
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I am against what's called 'anonymous tables' concept. It's just looks and feels ugly. Just too extreme. There is no need to go there and in my opinion it is a bad idea/policy for a site with, still, so much traffic as PokerStars.

Also there is no need to ban tracking software like PT or HEM which you can use for both tracking your results and working on your game OUTSIDE the tables, while NOT playing. That's totally fine.

But to consciously allow software like skier's and some other mentioned both in OP and in this thread is like giving licence to cheat. To let people use software that makes decisions for them ??!?!?!? What is wrong with you pokerstars ??? How and why you are so hesitating with this issue ???? The solution should be obvious - Do NOT allow the use of them. You do have the methods to prevent it, if you just wanted to, you proved it so many times before.

ANY 3rd party software which helps players DURING games should NOT be allowed. It's just common sense. And I don't know/understand what there is to talk about it. It's just common sense. To allow it is the exact same thing as allowing the use of steroids for athletes. And even if you go with the (stupid) argument : "But it's available for everyone", it's still shouldn't be allowed. Why all the sports organizations are fighting against the use of drugs that improves results ? They can say to everyone it is ok, and then everyone is even and it's a zero sum game. But they don't. Because they do understand that it's just WRONG.

But we also do know as a fact that not everyone all these software, and we do know that a lot, if not most, of recreational players are not even aware of the existence of them which by itself puts them in a massive disadvantage position. But you can be sure, that as soon as some of them are becoming aware, they are stop playing. Not all of them, sure, but a lot of them. And NO, they won't start using them, because they came to play for FUN. This game was so much fun once, online poker was so much fun.

Online poker should be played and give the feeling exactly as live poker. There is no reason in the world why you should allow some greedy, clueless people (players) the tools to win money from others just because they are incapable of beating their competition on their own. It's just UNfair and makes no sense.

During the last 5-6 years there were so many scandals evolving around online poker. So many cheating scandals. And so many other scandals. so much shadiness. I don't think there was one single piece of big and good news for online poker during this time. So MANY recreational players ran away out of this environment, you can't imagine. A lot of it has to do with all these greedy, unethical and incapable "players" who just drove them away with their behavior. A lot of it also has to do with a lot of people who exploited this environment do create all that software, and all the training sites, etc. They lost the ability (or never had) to beat the game itself and started to look for some other ways to make profits out of this economy. But for them I have zero complains. really.
But it also has to do with the operating sites, of course, who did not create strong enough ethics policies (at least in regards to the use of 3rd party software), or did not enforce them well enough.

Do you really think all those recreational (wealthy) players lost all of their money and that's the reason they left ? Do you really think they are all SO stupid that they don't have a clue of what's going on ? NO. The best and most obvious example that comes to mind is Guy Laliberte who in public interview expressed his feelings about it. That's a recreational player who really loved online poker (and still loves and plays poker, just not online) and was playing on a daily basis. Where is he now ? There are tons of players exactly like him who were playing at 1/2, 2/4, etc (the only difference is the money proportions). A lot of them just got tired of all this bull****. No one likes the feeling of being cheated, in any way or form. Especially people with money, with lots of money.

You don't even need to put your finger on the exact reasons as to why the player pools are shrinking in recent years instead of growing. And I believe those recreational players can't put their finger on the EXACT reason/s that drove them away of online poker. It's either the 3rd party software, either table scripts, either the insta sit outs after the fish leaves the table (or while he is sitting out at the table), or the HU scene full of pure bumhunters/angle shooters (at least below 10/20). I know I stopped playing HU because of it. It's all of these reasons (the combination of them is toxic). All of it created a scummy environment that drove so many players, both grinders and recreational players, away. You can't put your finger on what affected/s it the most, but you do feel it, you do feel the scummy environment around online poker.

Pokerstars, you should go back to basics. You should bring ONLINE poker back to basics. To what it was once - A pure game of poker. First step would be to strongly change your policy about the use of ALL third party software DURING play.

Last edited by VitoT; 06-18-2015 at 10:08 PM.
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Old 06-19-2015, 12:34 AM   #1235
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

stats and charts to improve your game and skills for those diehard players is understandable they want to get better and maximize their chance of profits.

however imo- online poker is no longer poker. its no longer a game of skill but more-so who has the best software and can use it the best. its really a tough spot as some do point out certain software has helped catch some bots which for whatever reason some sites seem too reliant on the players to call these accounts to their attention.

i would love to see the 3rd software restricted to more basic forms again but i dont think it will happen. imo- online poker should be like playing live. no computer sitting next to you to tell you what to do

you're always going to have people abusing the system and cheating when money is concerned. no matter what the restrictions are you r going to have people using secondary and 3rd 4th computers with who knows how many charts and programs running to give them an edge. thats a fact.

i doubt with all the other aspects ($$$$$) involved with the software and those companies potential influence we'd ever see all software getting banned.
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Old 06-19-2015, 12:46 AM   #1236
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Yes there are many bigger reasons why poker is in decline. Doesnt mean you ignore the problems that isnt the biggest. This is something that does affect pokers survival at its core. Segregation which has greatly affected poker is not really within PS's control. They can lobby and do what they can but this software banning is something they can do.

Also just because enforcement is difficult doesn't mean it shouldnt be a rule/law. When this rule comes in place, people hav ethe choice to follow it or not. Those who dont; know there are consequences for not following. Yes they at that time will have an advantage over the regs who follow but in the end, there will be less regs playing like a bot. In time, those who cheated will get caught. In the end. it is still better for the game/recs as there is less player bots and yes its unfair for those who follow the rules. Tough, life isnt fair is it. Break the rules if you so wish.
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Old 06-19-2015, 01:13 AM   #1237
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Everything has been said already here. i hope stars can make the right decisions regarding the software a lot of people use.
I hope stars can bring back poker as it is supposed to be played, without any helping software.There are way too many multitabling Hud-bots, espescially on Stars, and i feel that longterm it is healthier for the poker ecology, if just all software is banned, including trackers which are not supported at all sites, so it is possible i guess.
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Old 06-19-2015, 05:35 AM   #1238
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Everything has been said already here.
Everything has been said, but you seem to remember nothing which has been said.

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Originally Posted by Amateur25 View Post
and i feel that longterm it is healthier for the poker ecology, if just all software is banned, including trackers which are not supported at all sites, so it is possible i guess.
Who cares about what you feel really ?

But...as you said, everything has been said. It is pointless to keep answering the same 5/6 anti-softwares monks who are flooding this thread with 20 messages a day, harping their recreationnal "feelings" as if they were a revealed truth from some kind of religion, without any logic to ever back it up. And since everything has been said and resaid, nobody wants to take the time to answer them anymore since they obviously won't get it and don't want to get it.

I think this thread should be closed.

Last edited by KDash; 06-19-2015 at 05:46 AM.
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Old 06-19-2015, 05:47 AM   #1239
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by fozzy71 View Post
....

This is supposedly to help address the bot issue - http://www.pokernews.com/news/2015/0...ndal-21935.htm
I think it was really because of Skier's software rather than the bot issue. It came about as Skier had asked PS if his software was legal, PS said it was and then there was a large debate/ discussion by others who felt it shouldn't be.
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Old 06-19-2015, 06:13 AM   #1240
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

looking forward to monday decision now...
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Old 06-19-2015, 06:16 AM   #1241
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Can anyone plz tell me how is PT4 leak tracker helps to make a better decision ? this is useless option i think
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Old 06-19-2015, 06:20 AM   #1242
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I don't think they intend on banning it on the basis that it's being used now as a leak finder while at the tables, but they're thinking ahead - "PT leak tracker can help you identify leaks in your game and your opponents', maybe now it can't be used on the spot, to get an unfair advantage while playing, but maybe future updates will allow users to do that much easier while playing". Which makes total sense, considering the direction they intend on heading into. They're trying to cover all their bases, which is a good thing.

You're not gonna use PT leak tracker live anyways, are you? So then there's no reason to oppose such a restriction, which is primarily imposed with the future in mind.
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Old 06-19-2015, 06:25 AM   #1243
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Its going to take longer than Monday for PS to make a decision. So you NC lovers, should start 16 hr sessions while you can before the grace period ends.
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Old 06-19-2015, 06:36 AM   #1244
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

have the rep reports already been posted?
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Old 06-19-2015, 06:40 AM   #1245
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

+1 for banning ALL 3rd party software. All of them.

Make poker enjoyable again!
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Old 06-19-2015, 06:44 AM   #1246
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

the reg with the best strat/gameplan and ability to adjust using only his own mind through observation should have the highest winrate.

Regs who gameplans mostly resolve around software should not have the highest winrate.

thats all i have to say i guess. gg you NC scum
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Old 06-19-2015, 06:56 AM   #1247
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by djle2 View Post
Its going to take longer than Monday for PS to make a decision. So you NC lovers, should start 16 hr sessions while you can before the grace period ends.
This post is not only dumb, it's also unrealistic. You expect Stars to announce the total ban of NoteCaddy? Let me help you with some scenarios:


Stars announces the ban of HUDs and all related software
Getting hit by a lightning is more likely than that. Ain't gonna happen, sry for you.

Stars doesn't put any restrictions on the 3rd party software in question
Probably a 10% chance for this to happen. Stars is somewhat in the corner of having to act in some way.

Stars will change ToS in a way that will require minor changes to trackers and programs like NoteCaddy to be compliant
The most realistic outcome. Appeases somewhat everyone as both sides get something. One side wins by being able to continue their soft (but with reduced functionality) and the other side can book a win by seeing the power of software limited/reduced. The radical u-turn which some of the posters are cheering (like total ban of HUDs) for is completely unrealistic and is not going to happen. A company from the size of Stars can't make such radical changes in any direction. There's too much revenue at stake.
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Old 06-19-2015, 07:07 AM   #1248
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Stars will change ToS in a way that will require minor changes to trackers and programs like NoteCaddy to be compliant
The most realistic outcome. Appeases somewhat everyone as both sides get something. One side wins by being able to continue their soft (but with reduced functionality) and the other side can book a win by seeing the power of software limited/reduced. The radical u-turn which some of the posters are cheering (like total ban of HUDs) for is completely unrealistic and is not going to happen. A company from the size of Stars can't make such radical changes in any direction. There's too much revenue at stake.
this will happen. yeh talk of banning huds is pointless. but we can all dream
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Old 06-19-2015, 07:19 AM   #1249
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

That is indeed the most likely course of action, imo. And the most balanced and sane.

If I were in NC developers' shoes, I'd start working on versioning and testing, as I don't expect a huge grace period if PS decides to forbid badges, graphs, heat maps etc. And tbh, it shouldn't be a herculean task to restrict those modules for a PS-approved version of NC.

Sometimes lighting strikes all of a sudden and burns down a whole forest. But the new one to grow instead is always healthier and stronger than the one that burnt.
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Old 06-19-2015, 07:48 AM   #1250
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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and the other side can book a win by seeing the power of software limited/reduced.
That's the whole issue of this thread : it has been spamed by 5/6 recreationnals who are looking for something to blame for their negative winrate (can't be because they are just bad at poker), and who feel like (no proof of course) they are loosing because of those horrible nasty regs who are using a HUD/NC.
But if PS decided to ban partially / totally HUD/NC, they would turn back to a positive winrate in the blink of an eye (even though 1) the only serious study made on the subject is showing the opposite and 2) Some rooms are already offering this so why the **** don't they go there instead of trying to mess up PS ?), because you know, they are just so good at poker and those nasty regs are so bad and only winning because of their HUDs/NC...

So, i really hope that PS is going to be smart enough to not punish all their regs because of 5/6 recreationnals who had a feeling (probably the same kind of feeling that they have when they raise/call 42s from EP), and realize where is their best interest/the best interest of their regs.

Last edited by KDash; 06-19-2015 at 07:58 AM.
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