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Old 06-11-2015, 05:08 PM   #101
4-Star General
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by PokerStars Steve View Post
1. Any tool or reference material that offers commentary or advice that goes beyond a basic level, such as stack-size-based starting hand tables, decision trees or heads-up displays that dynamically change based on player action or card values.
What do you mean by decision trees?
Like this? Well, I cannot see why this way to display data should be banned... it is only better looking
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Old 06-11-2015, 05:11 PM   #102
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

stars seems to want to make believe that the only software is the software on their lists. and that this software by some magic is static (can not be adapted, interfaced with, not combined w other software, ..).

the rules are meaningless, no matter how they are worded, as long as they do not take this into account. as is its an invitation to continue getting crucial parts of bots legalized + a wrench to tuck on the missing parts at home.
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Old 06-11-2015, 05:17 PM   #103
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Yeah, the problem with fish is a good reason not to ban browsers. Possibly incorporate a firewall based on an (extensive) whitelist, with the opportunity to apply for expansions?
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Old 06-11-2015, 05:19 PM   #104
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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I agree with this. Just now we have an even playing field as software like Notecaddy, which some people seem to be pretty clueless about, are relatively inexpensive and available to all. The problem would be if it was banned and then was limited to a select few who had the computer skills, or finances to pay for those skills, in order to circumvent any ban.
Forgive me for quoting my own post but I'd just like to add, hasn't this whole question of whether certain software is legitimate or not arisen because the software in question (that originally gave rise to this thread) is only available to a very select few? Therefore confirming the point I, and a couple of others, was making?
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Old 06-11-2015, 05:29 PM   #105
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Steve, now let's talk about the most serious issue you are facing, PLO BOTs
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Old 06-11-2015, 05:31 PM   #106
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Ban bots
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Old 06-11-2015, 05:39 PM   #107
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by skier_5 View Post
1) There is an after the hand analysis which the user does not see until the hand is completed.
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Originally Posted by kgbking View Post
Id like to know more about this
See 'Holy Grail of Poker' for an example of this type of thing.
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Old 06-11-2015, 05:44 PM   #108
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Ur doing it wrong stars,
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Old 06-11-2015, 05:58 PM   #109
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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How much software assistance does Pokerstars want to see?

How much software assistance do the majority of its customers want to see?

Solve the disconnect between what you're offering and what people actually want, and you might just save online poker.
+ 1

Many pros or experienced grinders don't really care about HUDs. Not only can you reverse bum hunt an HUD user but HUDs may be misused and are demanding to keep track of when stacking a bunch of tables. If you combine an HUD with a shared database though, that's pretty much cheating.

A monster edge for any serious player is putting opponents on ranges. If things like PTR and ICMizer, range vs range simulation tools are used, the software is essentially making all of the crucial decisions, not just providing pointers. Using these software packages should result in automatic bans without exception. If anything a real player with this edge over the field is much more dangerous than a bot.

Importantly for the growth of the game, Stars should advertise tables that strictly don't have any software assistance at all.

As a rec or even an experienced live player new to Stars, the last thing you want is 5 regs using software to exploit every mistake until you find your feet.

How about symbols for those using software assistance? Like the little mobile phone symbol for anyone running an HUD? The players who really need protecting are those who don't know the software exists or don't know how to use it. I think all players, even regs, would welcome leveling the playing field in terms of at least knowing which players are collating stats and using any form of software assistance, and which are not.
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Old 06-11-2015, 06:15 PM   #110
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Ban everything.

Hud, hem, pokertracker, script, table ninja, everything.

That would be one of the best decision for the future of online poker and bringing back online poker closer to a "real" poker game.

It's also really good for recreational player.
This.

Online poker will only last if it's HUDless/scriptless.
It's working in Nevada and we have a super small player pool.
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Old 06-11-2015, 06:18 PM   #111
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

This may keep online poker alive a little longer. All for this.
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Old 06-11-2015, 06:26 PM   #112
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I am all for banning as much helping software as possible. but id like to see things like Odds oracle and pokerstove only banned while sitting at a table because I never close my Stars client (even if i dont play a hand for a week my client is still open at all times while my pc is on) and dont really want to have to close it every time i decide i want to run a sim.
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Old 06-11-2015, 06:32 PM   #113
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

wont work, give the option for anon tables for all formats or sn change and reduce # of tables opened...

ONLINE POKER NEEDS TO TAKE A STEP TOWARDS REAL BRAIN TO BRAIN POKER

The very low percentage of real good honest players who mass table without ilegal software will have to suffer the damage, the rest of dull hiper informed software aided players and bots will go away.

Pokerstars dont want to make this decision simply because they lose mass rakers.

Advertise into Real brain to brain poker
Change online poker forever
#Pokerstars Respect

Otherwise PS can keep trying to change with all these unclear rules that no rec would even try to understand...Stop going around in circles!!
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Old 06-11-2015, 06:37 PM   #114
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

The only way i could see HUD's to be fair for everyone is if it was a basic hud inside PokerStars software showing basic stats like vpip/pfr/3bet/cbet avaible for all players.

Hopefully if Stars takes this direction, other major site like Party, 888(im sure they would love it) would take that path also.

I wouldn't mind seeing PokerStars more friendly, fun for recreational player, like offering 7-2 tables, or any kind of different things that bring online poker closer to a live poker game, im sure all the pros would benefit from that also while the fish would have more fun.
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Old 06-11-2015, 06:39 PM   #115
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by jeanchris View Post
The only way i could see HUD's to be fair for everyone is if it was a basic hud inside PokerStars software showing basic stats like vpip/pfr/3bet/cbet avaible for all players.

Hopefully if Stars takes this direction, other major site like Party, 888(im sure they would love it) would take that path also.

I wouldn't mind seeing PokerStars more friendly, fun for recreational player, like offering 7-2 tables, or any kind of different things that bring online poker closer to a live poker game, im sure all the pros would benefit from that also while the fish would have more fun.
I don't see why it has to be basic. The objection is that it's not accessible/known to all, right? How does this militate against an inbuilt fully customisable, complex HUD? If it'd scare recs you can hide it in the options.
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Old 06-11-2015, 06:45 PM   #116
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Jesus, no anonymous table suggestions please. That is NOT what poker needs.
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Old 06-11-2015, 06:45 PM   #117
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by TheDefiniteArticle View Post
I don't see why it has to be basic. The objection is that it's not accessible/known to all, right? How does this militate against an inbuilt fully customisable, complex HUD? If it'd scare recs you can hide it in the options.
I think it will be more fair yes, but technically you are right... but

- the basic stats are complex enough for rec players
- hopefully stars wants to bring poker back based on playing poker, and not based on basic/advanced stats

So Yes technically it will be fair if everyone got the same HUD avaible, i still think its better no HUD at all.
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Old 06-11-2015, 06:47 PM   #118
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Jesus, no anonymous table suggestions please. That is NOT what poker needs.
+1 anon table are terrible and i dont think pokerstars would ever considerate that option
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Old 06-11-2015, 06:56 PM   #119
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

PokerStars Steve,

1) I think you have to make more specific rules depending on your real motives and software, that poker community and you think can be used to achieve unfair advantage.

Right now you are trying to create only few, but very general rules. Consider creating many rules but more specific and concrete.


For example, if you think that charts depending on stacks give unfair advantage, then make a specific rule:

"Software is prohibited if it allows to show charts in HUD depending on stack sizes"

(you can also strictly specify any other parameters such as: player positions or number of places until the bubble. There are not so many vital parameters and its quantity is limited. )

I'am sure a list with those kind of specific rules will not be too long. Just try to do it.


In my opinion it would be a mistake to make some universal rule, for example - prohibition of a software that shows statistics depending on the action in hand. Your initial goal was to prohibit an ability to show charts depending on stack sizes, but as a result suffered NoteCaddy which just shows statistics depending on the current street which doesn't lead to unfair advantage and only exists for the user's convenience.



2) I am a poker software developer and I had a chance to speak to one of your team members regarding adding my program to the list of allowed software at PokerStars.

Also I know few other developers who had similar expirience.

I have made a conclusion, that your team(or maybe just one responsible person) is too tied up by your own rules.

You should make decisions more subjectively, especially in cases when you think that poker software you are reviewing gives unfair advantage.

If according to the rules charts are allowed, but game advices are prohibited and you are being shown a software with charts depending on stack sizes in HUSNG, then your rules forcing you to allow that software, even if it is obvious to you that it leads to unfair advantage. Those charts are developed by experienced players and such a dynamic output to the HUD gives serious advantage in comparison to, for example, open raising chart from UTG in NL 6max cash. Because you have chosen to strictly follow your own rules,you got the wave of protests among players.

Be more flexible than your rules!

Thanks.
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Old 06-11-2015, 07:01 PM   #120
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

What about seating scripts? Those seem quite malicious towards recreational players.
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Old 06-11-2015, 07:02 PM   #121
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeanchris View Post
I think it will be more fair yes, but technically you are right... but

- the basic stats are complex enough for rec players
- hopefully stars wants to bring poker back based on playing poker, and not based on basic/advanced stats

So Yes technically it will be fair if everyone got the same HUD avaible, i still think its better no HUD at all.
Yes, fine, rec players need to be attracted but it doesn't need to be a situation wherein the goal is to reduce their loss rate (one of Stars' promos at the moment includes winning a hand with 72). HUDs are poker. Online poker is different from live poker, but it doesn't make it any less 'poker', and nor does the use of a HUD, which, if anything, adds an element of skill in statistical interpretation.
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Old 06-11-2015, 07:10 PM   #122
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I dont agree that PS should make their own hud , there is nothing wrong with huds imo and if people want them they should have a choice of what type they want .
i dont agree with pokerstove being banned ever it is pretty much a static program and cant be used while in a hand easily, but can be used between hands when checking a previous hand played

the other programs that pick on weak players would be the most harmful 3rd party program imo because they are exploitable as it is without giving away that they are new or really bad player

programs help sort tables for multitablers are fine and pokerstars already helps us with multitabling ,it would be nice if they went a bit further with it
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Old 06-11-2015, 07:21 PM   #123
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lets View Post
PokerStars Steve,

1) I think you have to make more specific rules depending on your real motives and software, that poker community and you think can be used to achieve unfair advantage.

Right now you are trying to create only few, but very general rules. Consider creating many rules but more specific and concrete.

For example, if you think that charts depending on stacks give unfair advantage, then make a specific rule:

"Software is prohibited if it allows to show charts in HUD depending on stack sizes"

(you can also strictly specify any other parameters such as: player positions or number of places until the bubble. There are not so many vital parameters and its quantity is limited. )

I'am sure a list with those kind of specific rules will not be too long. Just try to do it.


In my opinion it would be a mistake to make some universal rule, for example - prohibition of a software that shows statistics depending on the action in hand. Your initial goal was to prohibit an ability to show charts depending on stack sizes, but as a result suffered NoteCaddy which just shows statistics depending on the current street which doesn't lead to unfair advantage and only exists for the user's convenience.


2) I am a poker software developer and I had a chance to speak to one of your team members regarding adding my program to the list of allowed software at PokerStars.

Also I know few other developers who had similar expirience.

I have made a conclusion, that your team(or maybe just one responsible person) is too tied up by your own rules.

You should make decisions more subjectively, especially in cases when you think that poker software you are reviewing gives unfair advantage.

If according to the rules charts are allowed, but game advices are prohibited and you are being shown a software with charts depending on stack sizes in HUSNG, then your rules forcing you to allow that software, even if it is obvious to you that it leads to unfair advantage. Those charts are developed by experienced players and such a dynamic output to the HUD gives serious advantage in comparison to, for example, open raising chart from UTG in NL 6max cash. Because you have chosen to strictly follow your own rules,you got the wave of protests among players.

Be more flexible than your rules!

Thanks.
I think this is wrong. If the rules say that a piece of software should be allowed, but it is concluded that some software falls within the rules but that Pokerstars' would rather not have it allowed, then the rules should be changed or amended. Making subjective and arbitrary calls is going to lead to things being unfair. A level playing field is what is needed for fairness which will come from clarity. The rules need to be well defined and unambiguous and that all players be held to the same standard. Further, clarity will lead to all players understanding where the limits are and prevent the rampant speculation which has caused all of this.
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Old 06-11-2015, 07:27 PM   #124
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeanchris View Post
Ban everything.

Hud, hem, pokertracker, script, table ninja, everything.

That would be one of the best decision for the future of online poker and bringing back online poker closer to a "real" poker game.

It's also really good for recreational player.
so 2007

http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...10655996&page=
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Old 06-11-2015, 07:31 PM   #125
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by PokerStars Steve View Post
New PokerStars Rule Proposal
Q. In general, what kind of tools and services are acceptable?

2. Tools and services that are static reference material and basic in nature, such as a single table-based starting hand chart.



Q. In general, what kinds of tools and services are prohibited only whilst the client is open?

A. The following types of tools and services are prohibited only whilst the client is open:
1. Any tool or reference material that offers commentary or advice that goes beyond a basic level, such as stack-size-based starting hand tables, decision trees or heads-up displays that dynamically change based on player action or card values.
so you are allowed to use charts that arent for specific depths... ?

i dont really understand what kind of chart they are talking about ? a chart that is for a general depth is the most useless thing i have ever heard of


can we be more clear on the difference here
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