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Old 06-17-2015, 04:01 PM   #1101
DarkMattersMan
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richas View Post
For goodness sake, the argument has been put again and again and again.

The poker ecosystem is built on just one key group - losing players. They pay all the bills, they keep you fed, they keep PokerStars employees in work and Amaya shareholders invested. Without the recs/fish the whole thing collapses.

Now, what software aids do is make the experience for recs truly terrible. Not only is variance reduced so they never have a winning session they also never get to play recs as the seatgrabbers and scanning softwae makes sure they are up against Regs all the time. The games play slowly. There is no chat, it is a truly terrible experience.

Now, why would they carry on signing up? Indeed with Twitch and the like making the s/w they are against even clearer to them why would they deposit again for a pretty terrible experience?

Devera explains it quite clearly just above in his point 3).

IF we can get the s/w advantage that the pros have back under some semblance of control then the recs will have a better time. Sometimes they will get a bluff through, maybe once in a decade they will not get ISO raised as soon as they enter a pot in a way that the other regs at the table are not being treated by the other regs he is surrounded with. He will have a chance to see a game where the pattern of play is not obviously and clearly about the rest tag teaming him whilst playing differently against each other (with the table queue stretching to roughly 2016) .

The only futiue for poker is signing up more new, depositing players, there is always going to be churn but when every kid gets to know before his 18th birthday that to start playing he needs $1000 of software plus a decent (illegal) database just to start his poker apprentiship with the same s/w interface as his opponents how many do you think will sign up?

I have banged on about this for about 3 or 4 years. For me it was NoteCaddy Edge that finally tipped me over in to outrage at the way that online poker is no longer even close to a level playing field. NoteCaddy Edge has cost me indigestion, a hobby I liked and the online poker community the cash I would have deposited.

The changes in the game due to s/w increase the churn rate and deter new players, it costs the poker economy enormous sums. The s/w does not just cost what regs pay for it - it costs the future revenues of the industry too.

Meanwhie the poker sites get desprate to add a bit of variance in to the games and so we get Spin N Gos, turns out recs like them but hey ho the s/w guys are already at em, you can buy the hand histories, get the player profiles, no doubt some nice new extra NoteCaddy package is out there now or under development - can't have the poor pros play a short stack three handed tournament, one of the most brain dead formats ever without a little bit of software to help can we? Oh no, their dedication and hard work means they need to have a s/w helper to make sure they have a bit more edge.

Extra advice software not enough to take variance out for the rec? you know the fun bit, the gambling bit, that's OK there will be a cartel along soon to make sure that the recs only get to play regs with their software tools and their cheat data, you see when you can fix the new high variance format via software tools and some seatgrabber like software then you can guarantee that the rec gets to face two regs every time, that'll stuff em - can't let the rec have even just below a one in three chance of winning when instead we can make it so he only binks one in ten, that'll keep the schmuck paying the bills.

Meanwhile when Stars or some other bright spark events some other format where the rec has some variance to make it fun we can repeat the process, six months of regs moaning about bingo games until the s/w and cartels are established, the vaiance is eliminated and the regs get back to just moaning in general that there are no fish any more.

So here is the proposal again -

HUDs should be static, they should show the same stats for all your opponents, no drill downs, no popups, no links to additional data, you get a HUD with any stats on it you want but you don't get stats customised to the player or dynamic in the hand to show either new data based on the cards dealt or new stats for the current street.

That HUD has to let Stars check the data you are using and the display you have configured. The display is checed to make sure it is static and does match the data the HUD says it is using and the site gets to check that the data you are using is consistent with your play history at that site.

This wipes out datamining and it limits the power of the HUD, it makes the playing field a bit closer to even. This means recs have a better time, they have more variance, they get a bluff through, they don't get tag teamed quite as efficiently, it is like the ref actualy stopping the team of regs all being in the ring to pound him at once

This means recs don't get churned quite so quickly, it is easier to recruit new players and crucially using recs DEPOSIT MORE and that eans there is more cash for regs and more cash for Stars...but a bit less for poker s/w developers and dataminers, which again comes back to regs and Stars.

Will that be enough to save online poker? Maybe not, but it is a start.
Truly outstanding. Please all quote and reference this from here on in.
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Old 06-17-2015, 04:04 PM   #1102
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by DarkMattersMan View Post
Truly outstanding. Please all quote and reference this from here on in.
You are not only outstanding in posting terrible stories about imaginary friends ....you are also a diligent claqueur. Chapeau!
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Old 06-17-2015, 04:08 PM   #1103
ArtyMcFly
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

If Stars doesn't deal with the more pressing bot crisis, this whole debate will prove to be a pointless diversion.
Regulators gonna regulate.
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Old 06-17-2015, 04:08 PM   #1104
DarkMattersMan
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by FR-Nit View Post
You are not only outstanding in posting terrible stories about imaginary friends ....you are also a diligent claqueur. Chapeau!
Whats up? Struck a nerve have we? Your little gravy train coming to an end? So now we start to pick on the less articulated posters because you have no arguments to put forth??
Get a kleenex sir.
My poasting comes from the heart and its the truth. You, your just selfish and looking out for your own bottom line. You post nothing but self serving delusional tripe.
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Old 06-17-2015, 04:13 PM   #1105
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkMattersMan View Post
My poasting comes from the heart and its the truth. You, your just selfish and looking out for your own bottom line. You post nothing but self serving delusional tripe.
I'm always concerned about my bottom-line. That's what separates me from a weirdo. Please post more stories about your friends....actually liked those jejune stories.
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Old 06-17-2015, 04:17 PM   #1106
DarkMattersMan
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by FR-Nit View Post
I'm always concerned about my bottom-line. That's what separates me from a weirdo. Please post more stories about your friends....actually liked those jejune stories.
Cant stand the truth. Sticks his fingers in his ears 'lalalalalala'

Go and dissect and counter argue against Richas last post. Go on. Please continue to show yourself up.
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Old 06-17-2015, 04:24 PM   #1107
gmiko
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richas View Post
For goodness sake, the argument has been put again and again and again.

The poker ecosystem is built on just one key group - losing players. They pay all the bills, they keep you fed, they keep PokerStars employees in work and Amaya shareholders invested. Without the recs/fish the whole thing collapses.

Now, what software aids do is make the experience for recs truly terrible. Not only is variance reduced so they never have a winning session they also never get to play recs as the seatgrabbers and scanning softwae makes sure they are up against Regs all the time. The games play slowly. There is no chat, it is a truly terrible experience.

Now, why would they carry on signing up? Indeed with Twitch and the like making the s/w they are against even clearer to them why would they deposit again for a pretty terrible experience?

Devera explains it quite clearly just above in his point 3).

The only futiue for poker is signing up more new, depositing players, there is always going to be churn but when every kid gets to know before his 18th birthday that to start playing he needs $1000 of software plus a decent (illegal) database just to start his poker apprentiship with the same s/w interface as his opponents how many do you think will sign up?

I have banged on about this for about 3 or 4 years. For me it was NoteCaddy Edge that finally tipped me over in to outrage at the way that online poker is no longer even close to a level playing field. NoteCaddy Edge has cost me indigestion, a hobby I liked and the online poker community the cash I would have deposited.

The changes in the game due to s/w increase the churn rate and deter new players, it costs the poker economy enormous sums. The s/w does not just cost what regs pay for it - it costs the future revenues of the industry too.

Meanwhie the poker sites get desprate to add a bit of variance in to the games and so we get Spin N Gos, turns out recs like them but hey ho the s/w guys are already at em, you can buy the hand histories, get the player profiles, no doubt some nice new extra NoteCaddy package is out there now or under development - can't have the poor pros play a short stack three handed tournament, one of the most brain dead formats ever without a little bit of software to help can we? Oh no, their dedication and hard work means they need to have a s/w helper to make sure they have a bit more edge.

Extra advice software not enough to take variance out for the rec? you know the fun bit, the gambling bit, that's OK there will be a cartel along soon to make sure that the recs only get to play regs with their software tools and their cheat data, you see when you can fix the new high variance format via software tools and some seatgrabber like software then you can guarantee that the rec gets to face two regs every time, that'll stuff em - can't let the rec have even just below a one in three chance of winning when instead we can make it so he only binks one in ten, that'll keep the schmuck paying the bills.

Meanwhile when Stars or some other bright spark events some other format where the rec has some variance to make it fun we can repeat the process, six months of regs moaning about bingo games until the s/w and cartels are established, the vaiance is eliminated and the regs get back to just moaning in general that there are no fish any more.

So here is the proposal again -

HUDs should be static, they should show the same stats for all your opponents, no drill downs, no popups, no links to additional data, you get a HUD with any stats on it you want but you don't get stats customised to the player or dynamic in the hand to show either new data based on the cards dealt or new stats for the current street.

That HUD has to let Stars check the data you are using and the display you have configured. The display is checed to make sure it is static and does match the data the HUD says it is using and the site gets to check that the data you are using is consistent with your play history at that site.

This wipes out datamining and it limits the power of the HUD, it makes the playing field a bit closer to even. This means recs have a better time, they have more variance, they get a bluff through, they don't get tag teamed quite as efficiently, it is like the ref actualy stopping the team of regs all being in the ring to pound him at once

This means recs don't get churned quite so quickly, it is easier to recruit new players and crucially using recs DEPOSIT MORE and that eans there is more cash for regs and more cash for Stars...but a bit less for poker s/w developers and dataminers, which again comes back to regs and Stars.

Will that be enough to save online poker? Maybe not, but it is a start.
While I can understand where you are coming from, you are off base and I am going to try to explain why. Arguments should be based on evidence and facts, not on blank statements and uneducated guesses and that is what you are giving us here.

You claim software aids make the experience for recs terrible. That is a subjective statement with no proof. Being a poker player I obviously know a ton of recreational players as well. Never have I heard in my life anyone complaining about HUDs. Never live, never on twitch, never in forums, untill now. So, from my subjective view I can claim the opposite. But I won't, because it's not on me to make claims and present proof because I don't advocate for changes.

Seatgrabbing and scanning software are not features of Notecaddy and are inefficient at stakes with a lot of traffic anyway. They may be a problem at higher stakes with small player pools, but on the low stakes, where the population of recreational player is the biggest they are almost useless. I don't have a strong opinion about scripts, I can agree they might be bad for the game. But I can also understand anyone who is using them. Especially when Pokerstars boned everyone with the introduction of Zoom.

You claim recs will have a better time if we control the advantage pros have with software. Proof? If the amount of fun of a recreational player (gambler) is having is dependant on the fact that his opponent is bad, should we ban every winning player then? Is a recreational player going to care if he loses at -50bb/100 or -48bb/100? Obviously, no. And I am being very generous giving Notecaddy credit for that difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richas View Post
IF we can get the s/w advantage that the pros have back under some semblance of control then the recs will have a better time. Sometimes they will get a bluff through, maybe once in a decade they will not get ISO raised as soon as they enter a pot in a way that the other regs at the table are not being treated by the other regs he is surrounded with. He will have a chance to see a game where the pattern of play is not obviously and clearly about the rest tag teaming him whilst playing differently against each other (with the table queue stretching to roughly 2016)
I have to admit I don't understand this paragraph in its entirety. I have no idea what are you talking about and how it is related to Notecaddy/HUDs.

You continue talking about Spin and go's, unsocial environment and actually recognize some of the problems with online poker today, yet none are connected to HUDs and Notecaddy.

What you propose about a static HUD that doesnt show new data based on cards dealt - THAT RULE IS ALREADY IN PLACE.

What you propose about a HUD with no popups but any stats you can get is ridicilous. So, now the person with the largest monitor gets the advantage? Let alone the fact that is illogical and impossible to enforce. This also doesn't wipe out datamining. How exactly?! How is HUD connected to datamining? WHAT?

Again, no real arguments. Just wishes and blank statements.

Last edited by gmiko; 06-17-2015 at 04:32 PM.
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Old 06-17-2015, 04:30 PM   #1108
WillianMates
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I agree with all the changes. Just let people have a basic hud, at best!
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Old 06-17-2015, 04:50 PM   #1109
warrenBluffit
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

The myopia of some of the rabid software supporters in this thread is quite staggering. (But not altogether surprising)
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Old 06-17-2015, 04:51 PM   #1110
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Gmiko, why do you need 'proof' showing software aids make the experience terrible for fun players? Isn't that ridiculously obvious? Is the fact that the most important poker demographic in terms of keeping the economy healthy - fun players who deposit - are losing their deposits quicker than ever before not proof enough for you? That sounds like a pretty terrible experience to me, no?

Seriously, let's get our **** together in here. I went through this entire thread yesterday to catch up and would be shocked if 10% of those posts contributed anything new/anything of value to the discussion. Put your self interests aside (looking at you, blind NC supporters) and start thinking about what we can do to ensure the long-term growth/sustainability of the online poker economy. Bots, data-mining, software that continues to improve at a blinding pace and push the limits of legality are all playing a part in its demise (to varying extents).

Most of you are talking in circles at this point and it's a damn shame because this thread and this topic seem ridiculously important.
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Old 06-17-2015, 05:03 PM   #1111
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Gmiko, I think we must be from a different planet not just a different country.

You seem to want to just talk about NC - I want to talk about the total impact of s/w assistance on the poker ecosystem and the experience of online poker for recs, you can't seem to see that they all fit together, the suite of tools and the cumulative impact of them on the player experience at all. For you it is just as it is so how it should be.

You have never met a rec that has moaned about HUDs, multitabling, regs software or slow play, I have not met one who hasn't!

I'm getting closer to 50 by the day, I first played 3 card brag and poker for what were significant sums for me then over 30 years ago. I was a tiny bit late to online poker, that was only a decade ago but hey, life gets in the way of new hobbies and I knew from 30+ ago and live play that it was a skill game so I'd need to work at it. The only time I was semi pro was from about 16-19yrs old in a kiddies cardschool game that ran at college that was so weak even I could guarantee regular winnings.

That's my decrepid and ancient history in poker, my experience as a rec who caught the end of the Moneymaker boom and still plays the odd hand.

Given that bio it may be that we will never be able to discuss poker in terms where we can both get what the other is on about. You seem to have no sense at all of the cultural background or change, the tremendous dynamism of the past decade, the excitement of something new, the historic roots of the game, the way that books like the Big Deal or the Biggest Game in Town had a cultural as well as gambling impact over 20 years ago. It seems there is no big picture view in you at all. it is all NoteCaddy does this, I crush, I'm clever everyone else is stupid.

Maybe with your bio and poker background we might try to bridge the gap in understanding. I don't want to assume too much but I'm guessing that unlike me you ain't going to be booking flights any time soon to enter the senior's event at the WSOP. That gap may be too big.
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Old 06-17-2015, 05:03 PM   #1112
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Ban every kind of in game software aid for all I care so long as you can 100% detect people who are breaking the rules. If people are going to continue to use banned software and get away with it then you should not ban it.
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Old 06-17-2015, 05:04 PM   #1113
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTender31 View Post
Gmiko, why do you need 'proof' showing software aids make the experience terrible for fun players?
Personally I put 'reduced fun for bad plyers' down to multitabling. Ten bad/casual players ten good/professional players. Ten bad players play one table ten good players paly ten tables. Result most tables have zero to one bad player and five or six good players.

Comapred to this HUDs and Note canddy etc have only a minor effect. They are just tools that skilled players can use to get a little extra, it does not stop them being good players or stop bad players loosing.
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Old 06-17-2015, 05:16 PM   #1114
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piers View Post
Personally I put 'reduced fun for bad plyers' down to multitabling. Ten bad/casual players ten good/professional players. Ten bad players play one table ten good players paly ten tables. Result most tables have zero to one bad player and five or six good players.

Comapred to this HUDs and Note canddy etc have only a minor effect. They are just tools that skilled players can use to get a little extra, it does not stop them being good players or stop bad players loosing.
And what made multi-tabling possible/much easier?
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Old 06-17-2015, 05:18 PM   #1115
gmiko
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTender31 View Post
Gmiko, why do you need 'proof' showing software aids make the experience terrible for fun players? Isn't that ridiculously obvious? Is the fact that the most important poker demographic in terms of keeping the economy healthy - fun players who deposit - are losing their deposits quicker than ever before not proof enough for you? That sounds like a pretty terrible experience to me, no?

Seriously, let's get our **** together in here. I went through this entire thread yesterday to catch up and would be shocked if 10% of those posts contributed anything new/anything of value to the discussion. Put your self interests aside (looking at you, blind NC supporters) and start thinking about what we can do to ensure the long-term growth/sustainability of the online poker economy. Bots, data-mining, software that continues to improve at a blinding pace and push the limits of legality are all playing a part in its demise (to varying extents).

Most of you are talking in circles at this point and it's a damn shame because this thread and this topic seem ridiculously important.
Why do I need proof? Are you being serious?

Why do you directly link fun players losing their deposits faster and faster (I would love to see some data supporting that and how big of a deal it is) to HUD's / Notecaddy? Would you be surprised if that trend continued after the complete ban of all software?

So basically, your main concern is crippling good winning players (even though HUD and Notecaddy users are mostly losing players, because even regulars are mostly losers, a HUD or NC does not make you a winning player). And do that by removing tools they primarily use vs other regulars. What if that had no effect on fish, but just lowered winrate of competent players (by reducing edges vs other regulars) and we all just end up paying more rake which makes Pokerstars profit in the short term, but bankrupts them long term? Do you see that as an impossible scenario?

You think you need a complex program to exploit fish? Fish are easy. Just play ABC poker and they can't win. All the videos out there, all the software, coaching etc. is aimed at improving vs regulars. Videos/courses/books that deal how to deal with fish dont even come close to 1% of all the material out there. Saying that notecaddy destroys winrates of fish, without some strong proof is dumb. Saying that it is obvious even dumber. And don't get insulted now, I am not saying you are dumb, I am saying your statement is dumb. It's not personal. This is what most people can't understand here. We are pitching ideas and discussing them. Some might be stupid. That is not important, what is important is that they are backed up by arguments, not emotional breakdowns.

In the world of grown ups, before doing something that affects millions of people and billions of dollars, you might want to do some hard research, and not claim that something is obvious and the solution is obvious when it OBVIOUSLY ISN'T.

Last edited by gmiko; 06-17-2015 at 05:33 PM.
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Old 06-17-2015, 05:27 PM   #1116
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTender31 View Post
Gmiko, why do you need 'proof' showing software aids make the experience terrible for fun players? Isn't that ridiculously obvious? Is the fact that the most important poker demographic in terms of keeping the economy healthy - fun players who deposit - are losing their deposits quicker than ever before not proof enough for you? That sounds like a pretty terrible experience to me, no?
One of the few "proofs" posted in this thread, the mpn blog - testifies exactly the opposite of your "ridiculously obvious" assumptions here. In a world without HUDs:

Quote:
Observation 6: Losers Lose More at Anonymous Tables, and Go Broke Quicker
http://www.thempn.eu/blog/world-without-huds/
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Old 06-17-2015, 05:30 PM   #1117
gmiko
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richas View Post
Gmiko, I think we must be from a different planet not just a different country.

You seem to want to just talk about NC - I want to talk about the total impact of s/w assistance on the poker ecosystem and the experience of online poker for recs, you can't seem to see that they all fit together, the suite of tools and the cumulative impact of them on the player experience at all. For you it is just as it is so how it should be.

You have never met a rec that has moaned about HUDs, multitabling, regs software or slow play, I have not met one who hasn't!

I'm getting closer to 50 by the day, I first played 3 card brag and poker for what were significant sums for me then over 30 years ago. I was a tiny bit late to online poker, that was only a decade ago but hey, life gets in the way of new hobbies and I knew from 30+ ago and live play that it was a skill game so I'd need to work at it. The only time I was semi pro was from about 16-19yrs old in a kiddies cardschool game that ran at college that was so weak even I could guarantee regular winnings.

That's my decrepid and ancient history in poker, my experience as a rec who caught the end of the Moneymaker boom and still plays the odd hand.

Given that bio it may be that we will never be able to discuss poker in terms where we can both get what the other is on about. You seem to have no sense at all of the cultural background or change, the tremendous dynamism of the past decade, the excitement of something new, the historic roots of the game, the way that books like the Big Deal or the Biggest Game in Town had a cultural as well as gambling impact over 20 years ago. It seems there is no big picture view in you at all. it is all NoteCaddy does this, I crush, I'm clever everyone else is stupid.

Maybe with your bio and poker background we might try to bridge the gap in understanding. I don't want to assume too much but I'm guessing that unlike me you ain't going to be booking flights any time soon to enter the senior's event at the WSOP. That gap may be too big.
If you are from the planet Earth, we are from the same planet.

I talk about NC because people bash NC. Bash something else that I think does not deserve bashing, and I will defend it as well if I have knowledge how it works and believe is not bad for the games.

My bio? I am 27 and I started playing online poker as a profession the day I turned 18. Played in home games before that. I was here for online poker when it started. It doesn't matter though. Even if I started playing today, that is not important. I don't care about historic roots. I don't care about books. I am not a conservative right winger, I care about NOW and the FUTURE, about FACTS, PROOF, EVIDENCE and I will support what is ARGUMENTED and PROVED to be good for the games.

I am not blindly speaking against the anti HUD incentive here, I am speaking against it because I am reading extraordinary claims with no evidence. Now you can be god himself but if you tell me something and can't back it up with proof, go away.
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Old 06-17-2015, 05:31 PM   #1118
Piers
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by warrenBluffit View Post
And what made multi-tabling possible/much easier?
Sites allowing people to multi table.

Not saying this is good or bad, just that it is the main cause of cash poker being less fun for casual players.

Personally I find the challage of making the best use of HUDs and the avalable stats fun. Whatever...
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Old 06-17-2015, 05:41 PM   #1119
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by worried View Post
People still break the law... should be just get rid of all laws?
thats vague. it sounds good but it's wrong, you try to include many things that have nothing to do with poker. in poker, the goal of rules is to make the game fair for everyone. if a rule is leading to give an unfair advantage to a group of people then its a bad rule cause it's a competitive market (especially if its easy to break the rule and no way you getting caught).

i dont understand why you dont get it. maybe i dont phrase it well, or maybe you just try have the last word cause youd rather see some programms banned for selfish reasons
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Old 06-17-2015, 05:44 PM   #1120
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by _dave_ View Post
One of the few "proofs" posted in this thread, the mpn blog - testifies exactly the opposite of your "ridiculously obvious" assumptions here. In a world without HUDs:



http://www.thempn.eu/blog/world-without-huds/
This is the conclusion of the study:

"Those are some pretty damning conclusions for HUD users. They are also damning for the ‘HUDs are evil’ crowd, because the data doesn’t support the idea that HUDs give you an advantage. In fact, the very opposite – the data suggests that HUDs make the game tighter, less fun, and make everybody win and lose more slowly."

So the subjective conclusion is the game is "less fun" but "fish lose more slowly" and "winners win less".

And while it destroys blank statements made by hud haters, I don't find the study as good enough proof that HUD's are not the devil. It's amateurishly done and is not good enough. It could be much better. Yet anti HUD crowd can't even produce 1% of that study, which is weak in itself.

Pokerstars will ofcourse recognize this, so we shouldn't worry the loudest voice will win.

If they could introduce anonymous tables without splitting the player pool even further (for example if they replace zoom with anonymous tables) that could be the solution to please everyone. Although I am not sure what is worse for the game, Zoom or Anonymous tables.
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Old 06-17-2015, 05:44 PM   #1121
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Richas View Post
For goodness sake, the argument has been put again and again and again.

The poker ecosystem is built on just one key group - losing players. They pay all the bills, they keep you fed, they keep PokerStars employees in work and Amaya shareholders invested. Without the recs/fish the whole thing collapses.

Now, what software aids do is make the experience for recs truly terrible. Not only is variance reduced so they never have a winning session they also never get to play recs as the seatgrabbers and scanning softwae makes sure they are up against Regs all the time. The games play slowly. There is no chat, it is a truly terrible experience.

Now, why would they carry on signing up? Indeed with Twitch and the like making the s/w they are against even clearer to them why would they deposit again for a pretty terrible experience?

Devera explains it quite clearly just above in his point 3).

IF we can get the s/w advantage that the pros have back under some semblance of control then the recs will have a better time. Sometimes they will get a bluff through, maybe once in a decade they will not get ISO raised as soon as they enter a pot in a way that the other regs at the table are not being treated by the other regs he is surrounded with. He will have a chance to see a game where the pattern of play is not obviously and clearly about the rest tag teaming him whilst playing differently against each other (with the table queue stretching to roughly 2016) .

The only futiue for poker is signing up more new, depositing players, there is always going to be churn but when every kid gets to know before his 18th birthday that to start playing he needs $1000 of software plus a decent (illegal) database just to start his poker apprentiship with the same s/w interface as his opponents how many do you think will sign up?

I have banged on about this for about 3 or 4 years. For me it was NoteCaddy Edge that finally tipped me over in to outrage at the way that online poker is no longer even close to a level playing field. NoteCaddy Edge has cost me indigestion, a hobby I liked and the online poker community the cash I would have deposited.

The changes in the game due to s/w increase the churn rate and deter new players, it costs the poker economy enormous sums. The s/w does not just cost what regs pay for it - it costs the future revenues of the industry too.

Meanwhie the poker sites get desprate to add a bit of variance in to the games and so we get Spin N Gos, turns out recs like them but hey ho the s/w guys are already at em, you can buy the hand histories, get the player profiles, no doubt some nice new extra NoteCaddy package is out there now or under development - can't have the poor pros play a short stack three handed tournament, one of the most brain dead formats ever without a little bit of software to help can we? Oh no, their dedication and hard work means they need to have a s/w helper to make sure they have a bit more edge.

Extra advice software not enough to take variance out for the rec? you know the fun bit, the gambling bit, that's OK there will be a cartel along soon to make sure that the recs only get to play regs with their software tools and their cheat data, you see when you can fix the new high variance format via software tools and some seatgrabber like software then you can guarantee that the rec gets to face two regs every time, that'll stuff em - can't let the rec have even just below a one in three chance of winning when instead we can make it so he only binks one in ten, that'll keep the schmuck paying the bills.

Meanwhile when Stars or some other bright spark events some other format where the rec has some variance to make it fun we can repeat the process, six months of regs moaning about bingo games until the s/w and cartels are established, the vaiance is eliminated and the regs get back to just moaning in general that there are no fish any more.

So here is the proposal again -

HUDs should be static, they should show the same stats for all your opponents, no drill downs, no popups, no links to additional data, you get a HUD with any stats on it you want but you don't get stats customised to the player or dynamic in the hand to show either new data based on the cards dealt or new stats for the current street.

That HUD has to let Stars check the data you are using and the display you have configured. The display is checed to make sure it is static and does match the data the HUD says it is using and the site gets to check that the data you are using is consistent with your play history at that site.

This wipes out datamining and it limits the power of the HUD, it makes the playing field a bit closer to even. This means recs have a better time, they have more variance, they get a bluff through, they don't get tag teamed quite as efficiently, it is like the ref actualy stopping the team of regs all being in the ring to pound him at once

This means recs don't get churned quite so quickly, it is easier to recruit new players and crucially using recs DEPOSIT MORE and that eans there is more cash for regs and more cash for Stars...but a bit less for poker s/w developers and dataminers, which again comes back to regs and Stars.

Will that be enough to save online poker? Maybe not, but it is a start.
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Old 06-17-2015, 05:46 PM   #1122
Richas
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by _dave_ View Post
One of the few "proofs" posted in this thread, the mpn blog - testifies exactly the opposite of your "ridiculously obvious" assumptions here. In a world without HUDs:



http://www.thempn.eu/blog/world-without-huds/
Again, you are reading this wrong. In fact you seem to be deliberately cherry picking from the paper in a way that is actively misleading.

The paper shows that without s/w assistance the games at that level of big blind play with higher variance and larger pots. This is precisely what those who criticise s/w assistance for players WANT to happen, the games are more FUN, there is more variance for all players and the pots are bigger relative to the blinds.

Making the games more FUN is exactly what those of us advocating limiting s/w assistance predict would happen, we also predict that the losing players will lose more and deposit more - in return they get more FUN and a higher variance game so on the annonymous tables in question sometimes, indeed far more often, they are on the winning side of that bigger variance and higher win/loss for the session.

Quote:
Observation 4: There is Much More Action at Anonymous Tables

Everything you’ve read so far is just a preview to this, the main event! Anonymous tables are much, much juicier than regular tables:

There are more called bets in each hand
More money is bet and called in each hand
The average size of each called bet is larger
The average pot size is larger
Essentially, more money changes hands in anonymous games, per hand dealt. This is the case at every stake, but is especially prominent in micro stakes, where the average amount bet and called per hand is a whopping 20% higher at Anonymous Tables than at regular tables, and the average bet size is 19% higher. Rake per hand is also higher at anonymous tables, which is expected given the larger pot sizes.

There are several possible reasons for this. Maybe loose players seek out anonymous tables, but this seems unlikely. I think the most likely explanation is the inverse – tight players seek out regular tables, where they can use their HUD. This tight playing style means they give and receive less action, and pots are smaller as a result.
....

Quote:
Observation 7: Variance is Higher at Anonymous Tables

With bigger pots and more showdowns, it makes immediate sense that there is more variance in Anonymous games, just as there is more variance in Omaha compared to Hold’em. So even though on average, winners win more and losers lose more at Anonymous Tables, a player who is a long-term loser has a better chance of winning in the short term.

By the way, if you ever wondered why some operators like to push Omaha and other non-Hold’em games, this is a key reason – long term losers have a better chance to have a good experience in the short term, because variance is higher. They still lose, but at least there’s a better chance of them coming back.

To share a little anecdote with you – a while ago we did some SNG research, looking at which variant was the best in terms of survival rate for new players. The worst? No Limit Hold’em Double Ups. New players had almost no chance to win. Even Omaha Hi/Lo, an incredibly complex game for new players, did better. When it comes to giving new players a chance, variance is a good thing.
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Old 06-17-2015, 05:57 PM   #1123
LektorAJ
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by _dave_ View Post
One of the few "proofs" posted in this thread, the mpn blog - testifies exactly the opposite of your "ridiculously obvious" assumptions here. In a world without HUDs:



http://www.thempn.eu/blog/world-without-huds/
While it doesn't deserve to be totally dismissed, it's not slam dunk because one population of players does not act as a control population for the other when the populations are self-selecting. In plain English, they may be losing faster because recreational players who choose anonymous tables are different in some other way (in terms of attitude to poker, gambling, experience level) from players who choose non-anonymous tables - or there may be a difference in the regs on those tables, or it may be that the reg/rec ratio is worse if recs don't like anonymous tables (btw this is why I support screen name changes not anonymous tables) so they are against tougher competition.
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Old 06-17-2015, 06:00 PM   #1124
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I don't disagree, larger pots with higher variance may indeed be more fun for the losing player. We can see with the popularity of Spins, recreational players LOVE high variance.

The post I responded to claimed "losing deposits quicker than ever" was the "ridiculously obvious" anti-fun. Because of Software aids. The mpn blog post states this is not the case.
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Old 06-17-2015, 06:01 PM   #1125
gmiko
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richas View Post
Again, you are reading this wrong. In fact you seem to be deliberately cherry picking from the paper in a way that is actively misleading.

The paper shows that without s/w assistance the games at that level of big blind play with higher variance and larger pots. This is precisely what those who criticise s/w assistance for players WANT to happen, the games are more FUN, there is more variance for all players and the pots are bigger relative to the blinds.

Making the games more FUN is exactly what those of us advocating limiting s/w assistance predict would happen, we also predict that the losing players will lose more and deposit more - in return they get more FUN and a higher variance game so on the annonymous tables in question sometimes, indeed far more often, they are on the winning side of that bigger variance and higher win/loss for the session.



....

So, first your argument was fish lose too much too fast because we exploit them with our super stats, let's ban HUDs so they don't lose as quickly. Now it's if we ban HUD's they will lose even quicker, but they will deposit more. This must be deliberate trolling.

No one would be against that science fiction scenario.
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