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Old 06-17-2015, 01:51 PM   #1076
FR-Nit
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Richas View Post
Oh right, despite quoting me you were not really asking me anything at all. FYI it turns out that in a mere 22 hours he has not returned to the fray, but you knew that already.

I suggest buying the attention span extension pack for your existing Patience 2.0 package.
Why not immediatly like that?! Any reason for your previous useless answer? Can't wait for your follow-up in this matter.
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Old 06-17-2015, 01:54 PM   #1077
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

You are no note caddy shill GMIKO ? LOL sure you're not.... you have been defending notecaddy with everything you got since you showed your face in this thread, desperately trying you absolute best to hang on to your software that does all the work for you.

Malefiicus, you make some great points once again, do people still kill other people? Do people still steal? Ofc ourse they do, but the laws being in place deters everyone from killing eachother nonstop, or robbing whenever they please. Consequences matter, the majority of people will not risk being banned from the largest site in the world + having their funds confiscated. Sure some people will still kill other people, and some people still steal, but those people are in the minority, as will be cheaters on poker stars.
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Old 06-17-2015, 01:57 PM   #1078
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by PokerStars Steve View Post
We will give you a period of 10 days for you to discuss and share opinions before we make a final decision.
10 days from June 11 is this weekend

Quote:
1. Any tool or reference material that offers commentary or advice that goes beyond a basic level, such as stack-size-based starting hand tables, decision trees or heads-up displays that dynamically change based on player action or card values.
Quote:
Other programs would also be affected. The following are examples of other tools that would no longer be allowed to be used while the PokerStars client is open:

• SessionLord’s Preflop Chart
• Holy Grail of Poker
• Poker Academy
• HEM2’s LeakBuster
• FlopZilla
• Odds Oracle
• PokerStove
• NoteCaddy as is would require changes. It is permissible for HUDs to filter / drill down via street, but not by action facing or hole card / communicate card values.
• PT4’s Leak Tracker
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Old 06-17-2015, 02:02 PM   #1079
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by FR-Nit View Post
Why not immediatly like that?! Any reason for your previous useless answer? Can't wait for your follow-up in this matter.
Please check your patience 2.0 software, it seems that it is not currently operating correctly.

You may also be interested in Civility 1.0
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Old 06-17-2015, 02:08 PM   #1080
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I so much want to reply to Gmiko and his worthless post but cant even be bothered. Look at how much **** you post and what does it say? nothing at all cept a couple things which you got wrong. SMH You talk about logic but your post contains none of it. Your just pulling every lil stupid thing you can think of to reply in hopes of keeping your software.
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Old 06-17-2015, 02:09 PM   #1081
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by worried View Post
You are no note caddy shill GMIKO ? LOL sure you're not.... you have been defending notecaddy with everything you got since you showed your face in this thread, desperately trying you absolute best to hang on to your software that does all the work for you.

Malefiicus, you make some great points once again, do people still kill other people? Do people still steal? Ofc ourse they do, but the laws being in place deters everyone from killing eachother nonstop, or robbing whenever they please. Consequences matter, the majority of people will not risk being banned from the largest site in the world + having their funds confiscated. Sure some people will still kill other people, and some people still steal, but those people are in the minority, as will be cheaters on poker stars.
No, i am not a shill (you probably don't even know what that means, google it). I have no personal relationship with anyone from Notecaddy. I am just a puny low stakes grinder who is a satisfied customer and who can't stand lies and people who want to destroy the game that I love and live off. I wish I did have a stake in the company.

Rule enforcement - it's not the same if some of the rule breakers don't get caught and if not a single person who breaks the rule gets caught.

Banning charts or Pokerstove or Leakbuster etc. would be like banning you from sleeping on your back. It doesn't really hurt anyone, no one cares about it and if they did no one could find out unless they violate your privacy in a serious way which would be a far bigger crime, and before anything else, it would be a ******ed rule that makes no sense.
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Old 06-17-2015, 02:10 PM   #1082
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by worried View Post
What about being banned from the site? This a pretty harsh penalty, esp being banned from a site like stars.
you really dont think people will create new accounts? Anyway no matter what the penalty is, how are they going to catch those that break the rules? every time i've heard a bot has been busted it was the players themselves that investigate, not stars. Same thing with skier's programm.
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Old 06-17-2015, 02:18 PM   #1083
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by djle2 View Post
I so much want to reply to Gmiko and his worthless post but cant even be bothered. Look at how much **** you post and what does it say? nothing at all cept a couple things which you got wrong. SMH You talk about logic but your post contains none of it. Your just pulling every lil stupid thing you can think of to reply in hopes of keeping your software.
"An argument is a series of statements typically used to persuade someone of something or to present reasons for accepting a conclusion.[1][2] The general form of an argument in a natural language is that of premises (typically in the form of propositions, statements or sentences) in support of a claim: the conclusion.[3][4][5] The structure of some arguments can also be set out in a formal language, and formally defined "arguments" can be made independently of natural language arguments, as in math, logic and computer science.

In a typical deductive argument, the premises are meant to provide a guarantee of the truth of the conclusion, while in an inductive argument, they are thought to provide reasons supporting the conclusion's probable truth.[6] The standards for evaluating non-deductive arguments may rest on different or additional criteria than truth, for example, the persuasiveness of so-called "indispensability claims" in transcendental arguments,[7] the quality of hypotheses in retroduction, or even the disclosure of new possibilities for thinking and acting.[8]

The standards and criteria used in evaluating arguments and their forms of reasoning are studied in logic.[9] Ways of formulating arguments effectively are studied in rhetoric (see also: argumentation theory). An argument in a formal language shows the logical form of the symbolically represented or natural language arguments obtained by its interpretations."

Now that you have learned what an argument is, you are welcome to apply that knowledge. A gold star will be awarded when you do.

You don't realize I don't have to say anything to keep my software. It is allowed. It will stay allowed unless someone presents a good argument why it shouldn't be. Still waiting for that. If someone does, I'll agree with them. So continue with your lies if you must, sad little man.
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Old 06-17-2015, 02:19 PM   #1084
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Richas View Post
Please check your patience 2.0 software, it seems that it is not currently operating correctly.

You may also be interested in Civility 1.0
Your credibility is in question, not my civility.
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Old 06-17-2015, 02:20 PM   #1085
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by cneuy3 View Post
Maybe they could allow a selected team of "player" representatives to occasionally look over and analyze the data, keeping the names connected with the data anonymous. After all the data is still connected to the players within their own network. In the end though it's as sixfour pointed out and players need to put more belief in the network that they are playing on's ability to properly police their own games or choose not to play on that network.

PokerStars has the resources to hire the right people for this job and with all the data(not just some of it) they should be able to police it much better on average than the player pool.
Sorry to be sceptical after what happened but I rather transparency and anonymous tables go against it.

Stop with the "go to play on another network if you don't trust PS", as I said it's worse there "easier to make new accounts, more tolerant with bots/softwares used, anonymous tables..".

Last edited by ben78; 06-17-2015 at 02:26 PM.
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Old 06-17-2015, 02:29 PM   #1086
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by gmiko View Post
You don't realize I don't have to say anything to keep my software. It is allowed. It will stay allowed unless someone presents a good argument why it shouldn't be. Still waiting for that. If someone does, I'll agree with them.
How about the Twitch test.

If a recreational player who is thinking of opening an account sees a particular piece of software in use on Twitch, does it make them less likely to open an account?

If yes, ban it.
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Old 06-17-2015, 02:31 PM   #1087
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Malefiicus View Post
The argument that "This doesn't perfectly solve the problem, people could do x instead of y and it would work" is poor. You establish the laws to capture people who break the rules you choose to enforce. You'll never catch everyone who breaks the law, and since that's true, what value is there in enforcing the law? Ultimately, questions like that lead to the obvious answer that while we'd like to make certain things impossible, so long as they're hard to do without a high level of risk, that's a strong enough incentive to keep the majority of people from abusing such things.

So, for all the idiots who somehow think that it's pointless since it's won't catch every single cheat, I can only say, you're dumb. No set of laws in life has a 100% success rate. In the real world, anyone can get past anything, ultimately we establish rules to keep the majority in line. That's what matters.

edit - I should also add that while the people saying "enforcability is an issue", are generally the smarter people in the group, many of them are implying that "If a fix isn't pefect, and there's a way for someone to cheat, then why would you add a rule that's not 100% effective." That implication is stupid.
Well said. People are making up arguments like OMG if this mass market software moves to prohibited zone only few top regs will be using it?
1) Yes
2) They'll be always at the point of getting banned with funds confiscated
3) The overall number of people with super huds will seriously decrease as very few adventurous players are willing to risk their source for a living.

Most pro poker players have nowhere to go, no other skills which could provide a comparable income, so they are very interested in keeping their jobs at PokerStars.
Risk taking is also their area of expertise and losing everything can't appear like a nice perspective, even at very low probability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krazykarter View Post
@devera: While I agree with most of your posts, I still disagree with your point about HUDs, especially the way you frame your argument. To me it seems that the only reason you want to keep HUDs is that without them you won't be able to play 12+ tables at a time.

I think that is a horrible argument for wanting to keep HUDs. Play less tables if you struggle to play so many. Mass tabling HUD using grinders are not enjoyable for the recreational player. We don't want to have to wait for your timebank so you can look at some stats before folding your trash hands preflop, every, single, time. These are the players that slow the game down and are no fun to play with.

Your first post talked about the original spirit of poker. Since when does that include playing so many tables that you can't follow the action without the aide of a computer doing it for you?
Another great post. devera made a nice post, but the problem with it is in first argument where HUDs are allowed for some odd subjective reason which is opposite of the objective reason why everything else is proposed to be not allowed.

From the spirit of the game perspective HUDs do ruin the spirit of the game just as super HUDs do. They allow otherwise average players to reach the unreachable (at a real poker table) skill quickly, provide an unfair advantage over rec. players, etc.

So we really need to hear what PokerStars think about all of this.
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Old 06-17-2015, 02:32 PM   #1088
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Gmiko

Seems like you quoted some definition but Ive learned not to read anything you write anymore.

I dont think you are going to make anyone believe you are relevant in this software discussion but you can keep trying.
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Old 06-17-2015, 02:34 PM   #1089
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by pies01 View Post
I think the following themes are consistently appearing throughout this thread:

• The bot/”in hand advice” threat: the major concern of the community is the Bot threat and we are all concerned that Pokerstars is not performing well in this area as 2+2ers seem to be the primary source of bot detection

• General software sophistication: the initial concern of skiers’ software has now been matched by concern of the tools players use to exploit each other - in particular Huds and data mining (either illegally purchased or combined as part of a large population tendency database as per the smartspins example).


• Enforcement Issues: related to the sophistication point above, any attempt to limit static tables and voice recognition will be easily overcome by cheaters through the purchase of a 2nd computer (to the post above, it’s just as easy to play on 2 computers as it is on 2 monitors) or through printed charts. Also, any attempts to restrict Huds interpretation of hands already played will unfairly disadvantage the commercial hud operators and effectively create a black market in Huds.

• Turn off all data in game or allow anonymous tables/name changes: Either of these options will level the playing field between rec and regs as it ensures recreational players aren’t max exploited the instant they sit down at the table and it eliminates the player based data mining issue. However, I don’t see Pokerstars making transformational changes to their business so may not be viable to implement – at least in the medium term.

So what should Pokerstars do?
• Work out how they can better track bots and/or in hand advice

• Allow preflop static tables, sophisticated HUDs and post hand advice to continue. This will allow the battle between GTO players and max exploit players to continue and let them/us sort this out. Understand that these models are getting very sophisticated and are potentially utilising data that is “mined” but also appreciate that you cannot get good through software and data alone. Players need to study incredibly hard to be able to get these tools to work so the smartest and hardest working will be the most successful.

• Don't get pressured into rushing any rule changes over the short term and if any rules are introduced, ensure they are enforceable and consistent across all tools. On that note, for the people saying “enforceability of new rules doesn’t matter” are basically facilitating the transfer of funds from a whole bunch of fair people to a whole bunch of unsophisticated cheats (for the reasons outlined above).
agree 100%
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Old 06-17-2015, 02:36 PM   #1090
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by djle2 View Post
I so much want to reply to Gmiko and his worthless post but cant even be bothered. Look at how much **** you post and what does it say? nothing at all cept a couple things which you got wrong. SMH You talk about logic but your post contains none of it. Your just pulling every lil stupid thing you can think of to reply in hopes of keeping your software.
Be fair, Gmiko does have one valid point when he explains that NC is largely parasitic in that it builds upon capabilities inherent within HEM. Where he gets confused and confusing is in two areas:

First trying to pretend that the functionality he is defending is not significant in creating an uneven playing field and that this debate is about NoteCaddy rather than functionality for a combined suite of s/w assistance tools

His vehemence in defending it gives away the power of the package. Frankly I don't care if the unfair advantage is via badges or by even more sophisticated tools, whether it comes from HEM, NC or NC add on number 23. What we need is to limit that s/w assistance to a reasonable level.

Secondly his vision of the poker world is incredibly narrow. it is only the professionals that know s/w intimately that should have a say. The consequences of those s/w pros pursuing their advantage on the industry, other players, especially recs is of no interest at all. He is the poke player extraordinaire, focussed solely on the next street, the current hand and no chance to look up from the HUD to see the impact upon the wider poker world.
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Old 06-17-2015, 02:43 PM   #1091
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by gmiko View Post
If someone had badges as the ones you are giving in your examples, he would have a HUD filled with 500 badges and would not even be able to find the badge he needs.

And the other example you give of a complex badge that involves 5 other stats - do you realize a stat definition can do the same thing, only showing the stat as a number instead of a picture? I know a child can comprehend this and realize they are writing garbage for days now, and I'm sure you are intelligent enough to realize it.

It doesn't matter at all. What matters to Pokerstars is - will Pokerstars profit?
First of all - https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=983 Not to quote myself, but maybe this way you can see yourself as the short sighted shill you are when you're spitting words, saying I'm against HUDs and NC like I'm a 70 years old who wants to play it like in Doyle's time.

As for your blabber, I only selected whatever I could find that's at least a bit reasonable to reply to.

1 - 500 bagdes thingy. That's a good one. You're pretending you don't know where I'm getting at by using an absolutely ridiculous and impossible counter-example? Who the fk has 500 leaks, since badges only pop up when a leak is discovered, automatically? Maybe you do.. Of all the ~300 badges in those well known add-on packs, how many are active for a single villain at any given time? I've seen 20, maybe a bit more on some. Considering you can add the badges while making your HUD smaller at the same time, yeah, I really agree with you - BIG TRADE OFF. Since instead of trying to envision ranges, now you have 20 badges for this villain, 15 for that other villain and so on. Big trade off indeed, and only after investing a couple of buyins.

2 - If you really don't know you can build custom badges that in no way can be replicated by HUD stats, you're a bit pathetic, after calling yourself a "power user" (indirectly, but you still did). Please let me know how I can incorporate in my HUD the stat for fold vs double barrel on A/K turn in 3bet pots in BTN vs SB dynamic. I'd really want to add that and since I'm just too ***** lazy to "put in the hours" of setting that up in NC, I want to do it with normal HUD stats.

3 - What your short sightedness prevents you to see is that, while NC badges and graphs will get more and more ineffective against REGs and semi-REGs (as people will be forced to buy them, if this continues), they will have the effect of killing the fish in one night after his monthly "fun" deposit, instead of 3 nights. Why? Because when a REC that plays 1000 hands a month sits at the table with 4 REGs, they all instantly know his leaks, he's like an open book (yeah, don't tell me, you don't datamine...). And yeah, I know, the fish will always lose their money, but that is not the point, you ignorant greedy "poker pro". The point is it will be way harder for a REC or fish to have his freaking winning night, even though he kinda knows he will eventually lose it all the next day or the day after that, simply because at every table there's 2-3-4 REGs that pound him instantly. For example, he has a habit of bluffing with big overbets on the river, cause that's his style. Now you and your fellow greedy fks just have to press that nice little button to show you his scatter graph on river bets so you can call him with your third pair, cause you're such a champion and you've put in a lot of work with your NC. And instead of his bluff working say 4/10, now they work 1/10. And because that poor fker can't have one freaking winning night (for that random positive reinforcement to kick in), how many times do you think he's gonna re-deposit, until he gets fed up?

You lack vision, completely. Your judgement is focused solely on TODAY. What you, with your limited way of thinking fail to grasp is that if this is the trend we're embarking on, it's gonna be a very short ride from now on. Signs are all over the place. I really look forward to checking this thread 2 years from now, when new super-tools will have been developed, so advanced that we'd all be forced to buy it to have a standing chance, while jumping like hyenas on the occasional fish that has the bad inspiration of trying poker for a night. His last night of online poker.

But anyway, it was fun seeing you breaking your promise to yourself. I mean that.
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Old 06-17-2015, 02:47 PM   #1092
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by LektorAJ View Post
How about the Twitch test.

If a recreational player who is thinking of opening an account sees a particular piece of software in use on Twitch, does it make them less likely to open an account?

If yes, ban it.
I got two of my friends into watching twitch. They both are recs and occasional players.
After watching grethcenlee and some other guy dragon something they both said they enjoyed the streams but found it rather off putting and ridiculous that 'these players dont even use their own brains man'

Take that fwiw. But, that came straight from the fishes mouths
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Old 06-17-2015, 02:54 PM   #1093
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Richas View Post
Be fair, Gmiko does have one valid point when he explains that NC is largely parasitic in that it builds upon capabilities inherent within HEM. Where he gets confused and confusing is in two areas:

First trying to pretend that the functionality he is defending is not significant in creating an uneven playing field and that this debate is about NoteCaddy rather than functionality for a combined suite of s/w assistance tools

His vehemence in defending it gives away the power of the package. Frankly I don't care if the unfair advantage is via badges or by even more sophisticated tools, whether it comes from HEM, NC or NC add on number 23. What we need is to limit that s/w assistance to a reasonable level.

Secondly his vision of the poker world is incredibly narrow. it is only the professionals that know s/w intimately that should have a say. The consequences of those s/w pros pursuing their advantage on the industry, other players, especially recs is of no interest at all. He is the poke player extraordinaire, focussed solely on the next street, the current hand and no chance to look up from the HUD to see the impact upon the wider poker world.
Will you stop with the empty claims?

Explain, with good strong arguments, back it up with sound logic and at least some kind of study - how would what any of you propose increase Pokerstars revenue for years to come and how would it be positive for the longevity of the games?

You can do that? I WILL AGREE WITH YOU THEN!!!

You can't do that? Then every single post of yours here is useless.

Twitch test - I am not going to bother quoting that, that is childish.

This is not church. If you want to be taken seriously, present arguments. Insults, childish emotional outbursts, being loud and uncivil and stating things without backing them up with arguments might make some random Joe believe the gospel of HUDs are a sin, but Pokerstars will not make decisions that can destroy online poker based on your concept of what poker heaven is and how it should look.
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Old 06-17-2015, 02:56 PM   #1094
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by djle2 View Post
I so much want to reply to Gmiko and his worthless post but cant even be bothered. Look at how much **** you post and what does it say? nothing at all cept a couple things which you got wrong. SMH You talk about logic but your post contains none of it. Your just pulling every lil stupid thing you can think of to reply in hopes of keeping your software.
It seems like every time you read a well explained and well argumented post in favor of NC, you think that this post doesn't make any sense. The only problem is that you can never explain why.
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Old 06-17-2015, 03:13 PM   #1095
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Devera, is this your only SN on 2+2 or did you create another account just to post on this thread?
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Old 06-17-2015, 03:15 PM   #1096
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by devera View Post
First of all - https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=983 Not to quote myself, but maybe this way you can see yourself as the short sighted shill you are when you're spitting words, saying I'm against HUDs and NC like I'm a 70 years old who wants to play it like in Doyle's time.

As for your blabber, I only selected whatever I could find that's at least a bit reasonable to reply to.

1 - 500 bagdes thingy. That's a good one. You're pretending you don't know where I'm getting at by using an absolutely ridiculous and impossible counter-example? Who the fk has 500 leaks, since badges only pop up when a leak is discovered, automatically? Maybe you do.. Of all the ~300 badges in those well known add-on packs, how many are active for a single villain at any given time? I've seen 20, maybe a bit more on some. Considering you can add the badges while making your HUD smaller at the same time, yeah, I really agree with you - BIG TRADE OFF. Since instead of trying to envision ranges, now you have 20 badges for this villain, 15 for that other villain and so on. Big trade off indeed, and only after investing a couple of buyins.

2 - If you really don't know you can build custom badges that in no way can be replicated by HUD stats, you're a bit pathetic, after calling yourself a "power user" (indirectly, but you still did). Please let me know how I can incorporate in my HUD the stat for fold vs double barrel on A/K turn in 3bet pots in BTN vs SB dynamic. I'd really want to add that and since I'm just too ***** lazy to "put in the hours" of setting that up in NC, I want to do it with normal HUD stats.

3 - What your short sightedness prevents you to see is that, while NC badges and graphs will get more and more ineffective against REGs and semi-REGs (as people will be forced to buy them, if this continues), they will have the effect of killing the fish in one night after his monthly "fun" deposit, instead of 3 nights. Why? Because when a REC that plays 1000 hands a month sits at the table with 4 REGs, they all instantly know his leaks, he's like an open book (yeah, don't tell me, you don't datamine...). And yeah, I know, the fish will always lose their money, but that is not the point, you ignorant greedy "poker pro". The point is it will be way harder for a REC or fish to have his freaking winning night, even though he kinda knows he will eventually lose it all the next day or the day after that, simply because at every table there's 2-3-4 REGs that pound him instantly. For example, he has a habit of bluffing with big overbets on the river, cause that's his style. Now you and your fellow greedy fks just have to press that nice little button to show you his scatter graph on river bets so you can call him with your third pair, cause you're such a champion and you've put in a lot of work with your NC. And instead of his bluff working say 4/10, now they work 1/10. And because that poor fker can't have one freaking winning night (for that random positive reinforcement to kick in), how many times do you think he's gonna re-deposit, until he gets fed up?

You lack vision, completely. Your judgement is focused solely on TODAY. What you, with your limited way of thinking fail to grasp is that if this is the trend we're embarking on, it's gonna be a very short ride from now on. Signs are all over the place. I really look forward to checking this thread 2 years from now, when new super-tools will have been developed, so advanced that we'd all be forced to buy it to have a standing chance, while jumping like hyenas on the occasional fish that has the bad inspiration of trying poker for a night. His last night of online poker.

But anyway, it was fun seeing you breaking your promise to yourself. I mean that.
1) You were focusing on super complex badges (that no one uses or would use) that could show a leak in some very specific situation and presented it as a problem. Everyone has 300 leaks that way.

Still don't see the argument how badges hurt Pokerstars profits.

2) I am not a power user, but I know most things that the program can and can't do. Badges are definitions which have pictures added to them. So without the picture, it's just a standard note definition. Which is shown as a number. Not complicated. HUD stats are note definitons. The only difference is in NC you can build note definitions (stats) yourself, and if you want them in HEM by default you have to ask the HEM programmers and wait for them to do it if there is enough interest.

How is that affecting Pokerstars profits and game longevity?

3) Datamining? We are not talking about data mining here. Do you want to ban cars because some people drive too fast? You are being childish and unreasonable. If a fish plays 1000 hands per month, than Notecaddy is pretty much useless against them. With 1000 hands you can profile the player and get some confidence on some of his basic tendencies like VPIP, RFI, AF and flop cbet, maybe turn cbet, not much more. If you can bust a fish with 1000 hands on him because you have a note of a very specific rare occuring leak, I ask you again - why are you not a poker millionaire? Is the reason that you are full of ****? Yes it is.

Still failing to give arguments as to HOW and WHY would Pokerstars profit and games improve without Notecaddy.

I am answering to you for the benefit of others who you are misleading and lying to. You can have as much fun as you want. Your whole involvement in this thread is trolling anyway.

For the millionth time - waiting for an argument.

How does Pokerstars profit, how do games get better, how do they continue getting better with your proposals? Give some proof. I am tired of exposing your statements as lies and giving arguments against those rare ones that are not lies but simply stupid and yet I did not receive a single argument back. It all comes down to personal attacks with you. Which I guess makes you a high school senior at best and I am being trolled hard.

Last edited by gmiko; 06-17-2015 at 03:27 PM.
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Old 06-17-2015, 03:26 PM   #1097
Q
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Twitch test is dead serious imho.
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Old 06-17-2015, 03:41 PM   #1098
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Q View Post
devera made a nice post, but the problem with it is in first argument where HUDs are allowed for some odd subjective reason which is opposite of the objective reason why everything else is proposed to be not allowed.

From the spirit of the game perspective HUDs do ruin the spirit of the game just as super HUDs do. They allow otherwise average players to reach the unreachable (at a real poker table) skill quickly, provide an unfair advantage over rec. players, etc.

So we really need to hear what PokerStars think about all of this.
The subjective reason is indeed subjective, but based on an undeniable present day reality - extremely few people play just one table and the environment is highly dynamic, with people coming and going constantly. In addition, you're playing basically versus avatars & usernames, there's no real insight you could have about your opponents, like you do live. And I'm not talking about "Mike Caro tells" bs, but about normal stuff - how your opponents talks about poker during a hand, how he discusses a hand after, how he behaves at the table, what's his emotional state etc, these are all pieces of info you only have live, that help you judge who's just having fun, who's trying to be the table captain, who's there for the money etc. Whereas online you're in the dark, so that's why I think a HUD is in order - compensation. But, as I said, this needs to be kept under control. And I agree - people playing 24 tables and slowing down the game considerably for others is no fun at all for someone who plays 2 tables, for example. And this has to be addressed with PS, as I don't know if any other poker room allows players to make that stretch, with obvious effects. I'm not really bothered by it, since I also multitable (not to that extent though), but I understand the issue and it's a legitimate one.

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Originally Posted by Husker View Post
Devera, is this your only SN on 2+2 or did you create another account just to post on this thread?
Only one. I read topics from time to time, no posting, I decided to make an account specifically for this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmiko View Post
blabber
I'm really starting to think you're just trolling, that last post of yours is 100% troll exhibition. So from now on - meh...

Last edited by devera; 06-17-2015 at 03:51 PM.
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Old 06-17-2015, 03:44 PM   #1099
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by fish_but_lucky View Post
you really dont think people will create new accounts? Anyway no matter what the penalty is, how are they going to catch those that break the rules? every time i've heard a bot has been busted it was the players themselves that investigate, not stars. Same thing with skier's programm.
People still break the law... should be just get rid of all laws?
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Old 06-17-2015, 03:53 PM   #1100
Richas
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Will you stop with the empty claims?

Explain, with good strong arguments, back it up with sound logic and at least some kind of study - how would what any of you propose increase Pokerstars revenue for years to come and how would it be positive for the longevity of the games?

You can do that? I WILL AGREE WITH YOU THEN!!!
For goodness sake, the argument has been put again and again and again.

The poker ecosystem is built on just one key group - losing players. They pay all the bills, they keep you fed, they keep PokerStars employees in work and Amaya shareholders invested. Without the recs/fish the whole thing collapses.

Now, what software aids do is make the experience for recs truly terrible. Not only is variance reduced so they never have a winning session they also never get to play recs as the seatgrabbers and scanning softwae makes sure they are up against Regs all the time. The games play slowly. There is no chat, it is a truly terrible experience.

Now, why would they carry on signing up? Indeed with Twitch and the like making the s/w they are against even clearer to them why would they deposit again for a pretty terrible experience?

Devera explains it quite clearly just above in his point 3).

IF we can get the s/w advantage that the pros have back under some semblance of control then the recs will have a better time. Sometimes they will get a bluff through, maybe once in a decade they will not get ISO raised as soon as they enter a pot in a way that the other regs at the table are not being treated by the other regs he is surrounded with. He will have a chance to see a game where the pattern of play is not obviously and clearly about the rest tag teaming him whilst playing differently against each other (with the table queue stretching to roughly 2016) .

The only futiue for poker is signing up more new, depositing players, there is always going to be churn but when every kid gets to know before his 18th birthday that to start playing he needs $1000 of software plus a decent (illegal) database just to start his poker apprentiship with the same s/w interface as his opponents how many do you think will sign up?

I have banged on about this for about 3 or 4 years. For me it was NoteCaddy Edge that finally tipped me over in to outrage at the way that online poker is no longer even close to a level playing field. NoteCaddy Edge has cost me indigestion, a hobby I liked and the online poker community the cash I would have deposited.

The changes in the game due to s/w increase the churn rate and deter new players, it costs the poker economy enormous sums. The s/w does not just cost what regs pay for it - it costs the future revenues of the industry too.

Meanwhie the poker sites get desprate to add a bit of variance in to the games and so we get Spin N Gos, turns out recs like them but hey ho the s/w guys are already at em, you can buy the hand histories, get the player profiles, no doubt some nice new extra NoteCaddy package is out there now or under development - can't have the poor pros play a short stack three handed tournament, one of the most brain dead formats ever without a little bit of software to help can we? Oh no, their dedication and hard work means they need to have a s/w helper to make sure they have a bit more edge.

Extra advice software not enough to take variance out for the rec? you know the fun bit, the gambling bit, that's OK there will be a cartel along soon to make sure that the recs only get to play regs with their software tools and their cheat data, you see when you can fix the new high variance format via software tools and some seatgrabber like software then you can guarantee that the rec gets to face two regs every time, that'll stuff em - can't let the rec have even just below a one in three chance of winning when instead we can make it so he only binks one in ten, that'll keep the schmuck paying the bills.

Meanwhile when Stars or some other bright spark events some other format where the rec has some variance to make it fun we can repeat the process, six months of regs moaning about bingo games until the s/w and cartels are established, the vaiance is eliminated and the regs get back to just moaning in general that there are no fish any more.

So here is the proposal again -

HUDs should be static, they should show the same stats for all your opponents, no drill downs, no popups, no links to additional data, you get a HUD with any stats on it you want but you don't get stats customised to the player or dynamic in the hand to show either new data based on the cards dealt or new stats for the current street.

That HUD has to let Stars check the data you are using and the display you have configured. The display is checed to make sure it is static and does match the data the HUD says it is using and the site gets to check that the data you are using is consistent with your play history at that site.

This wipes out datamining and it limits the power of the HUD, it makes the playing field a bit closer to even. This means recs have a better time, they have more variance, they get a bluff through, they don't get tag teamed quite as efficiently, it is like the ref actualy stopping the team of regs all being in the ring to pound him at once

This means recs don't get churned quite so quickly, it is easier to recruit new players and crucially using recs DEPOSIT MORE and that eans there is more cash for regs and more cash for Stars...but a bit less for poker s/w developers and dataminers, which again comes back to regs and Stars.

Will that be enough to save online poker? Maybe not, but it is a start.
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