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Old 06-16-2015, 03:26 PM   #976
nostrakhan
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richas View Post
It is some evidence but well short of full disclosure never mind proof. Certainly helps the case for NC now let's wait for the one making the allegation to return to the fray.
Innocent until proven guilty.
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Old 06-16-2015, 04:03 PM   #977
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by M_Acevedo View Post
"don't fix it if is not broken"
... and fix it if it is.
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Old 06-16-2015, 04:12 PM   #978
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Here a little idea:

What about taking known cards and bet amounts out of the HH? It would solve flop textures, bet sizings and hand strength too much data.

A HH would look like this:

PokerStars Hand #123456789012: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50 USD) - 2015/06/03 18:57:30 CT [2015/06/03 19:57:30]
Table 'Pierretta II' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: EatYouMoney ($60.83 in chips)
Seat 3: woocash22 ($52.83 in chips)
Seat 4: oQ|Lelik ($50.50 in chips)
Seat 5: Iwillcall555 ($38.75 in chips)
Seat 6: zhilei1991 ($39.25 in chips)
Seat 9: HERO ($51.86 in chips)
HERO: posts small blind $0.25
EatYouMoney: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HERO [?? ??]
woocash22: folds
gui_999 joins the table at seat #7
oQ|Lelik: folds
Iwillcall555: folds
zhilei1991: folds
HERO: raises
EatYouMoney: calls
*** FLOP *** [?? ?? ??]
HERO: bets
pdal102 joins the table at seat #2
EatYouMoney: calls
*** TURN *** [?? ?? ??] [??]
HERO: bets
EatYouMoney: calls
*** RIVER *** [?? ?? ?? ??] [??]
HERO: bets
EatYouMoney: calls
*** SHOW DOWN ***
HERO: shows [?? ??]
EatYouMoney: mucks hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $50.18 | Rake $2.26
Board [?? ?? ?? ?? ??]
Seat 1: EatYouMoney (big blind) mucked [?? ??]
Seat 3: woocash22 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: oQ|Lelik folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Iwillcall555 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: zhilei1991 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: HERO (small blind) showed [?? ??] and won
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Old 06-16-2015, 04:44 PM   #979
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamPrieto View Post
Here a little idea:

What about taking known cards and bet amounts out of the HH? It would solve flop textures, bet sizings and hand strength too much data.

A HH would look like this:

PokerStars Hand #123456789012: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50 USD) - 2015/06/03 18:57:30 CT [2015/06/03 19:57:30]
Table 'Pierretta II' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: EatYouMoney ($60.83 in chips)
Seat 3: woocash22 ($52.83 in chips)
Seat 4: oQ|Lelik ($50.50 in chips)
Seat 5: Iwillcall555 ($38.75 in chips)
Seat 6: zhilei1991 ($39.25 in chips)
Seat 9: HERO ($51.86 in chips)
HERO: posts small blind $0.25
EatYouMoney: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HERO [?? ??]
woocash22: folds
gui_999 joins the table at seat #7
oQ|Lelik: folds
Iwillcall555: folds
zhilei1991: folds
HERO: raises
EatYouMoney: calls
*** FLOP *** [?? ?? ??]
HERO: bets
pdal102 joins the table at seat #2
EatYouMoney: calls
*** TURN *** [?? ?? ??] [??]
HERO: bets
EatYouMoney: calls
*** RIVER *** [?? ?? ?? ??] [??]
HERO: bets
EatYouMoney: calls
*** SHOW DOWN ***
HERO: shows [?? ??]
EatYouMoney: mucks hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $50.18 | Rake $2.26
Board [?? ?? ?? ?? ??]
Seat 1: EatYouMoney (big blind) mucked [?? ??]
Seat 3: woocash22 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: oQ|Lelik folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Iwillcall555 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: zhilei1991 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: HERO (small blind) showed [?? ??] and won
I'll quit poker and get a job at McDonalds if this ever happens.
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Old 06-16-2015, 04:49 PM   #980
LektorAJ
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Just take the opponent names out.
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Old 06-16-2015, 05:14 PM   #981
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

What about for mtt and sngs if players names aren't revealed until after they bust ?
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Old 06-16-2015, 06:04 PM   #982
WilliamPrieto
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZKesic View Post
I'll quit poker and get a job at McDonalds if this ever happens.
Would you tell me what is wrong at not traking cards and bet sizings? HUDs would still be able to show average % frequencies for checks, bets, calls, folds and raises for both preflop and postflop situations.

Last edited by WilliamPrieto; 06-16-2015 at 06:09 PM.
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Old 06-16-2015, 06:07 PM   #983
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Not that it wouldn't be obvious, but here's the warning to all of you engaged in lame flame wars - WAY WAY TOO LONG, DON'T READ.

I'm taking the time (quite a lot of it) to write this because I trust PS Steve & Co will read it. Not to be disrespectful to all of you 2p2-ers, but if 1 user reads this post entirely that's already 1 more than I'd expect, considering how the thread derailed.

So let me dive into it. With the recent incredible development of poker related software, people seem to have forgotten the very spirit of this game and now they can't see the forest for the trees.

Poker is a game of chance with incomplete information. Because of that, you have to do a lot of abductive reasoning through the course of a hand, which is a fancy way of saying there are a lot of educated guesses that you're forced to make.

EDUCATED. GUESSES. That IS the spirit of the game.

So how to preserve it, with the avalanche of ever-more-advanced software popping up? Simple - any software, tool or means of assistance that kills the spirit of the game has to go. Period. It's that simple, really. So now apply this to any piece of software, tool, add-on etc that's out there.
  • HUDs - I'm talking about the classic "static" HUDs, that everyone knows. Do they cripple the spirit of the game? NO. You still have to make an educated guess about what those numbers actually mean and put them into context, regardless of how many you have in your HUD. If anything, going hud-less actually cripples the nature of the game, since you'd be forced to make guesses which are less and less "educated" and more of a gamble. Playing hud-less online poker at multiple tables leaves you almost completely in the dark about your 40+ simultaneous opponents while playing 500+ hands per hour, whereas live you can get a lot of info about your 7-8 opponents while playing 20 hands per hour (poker style & knowledge, behavioral info, conversational info, emotional info etc), a luxury you do not have online, so you use your HUD. So for online multitabling HUDs are a must and not a "cheat". Because with a HUD, however complex, you still have to envision ranges, interpret what a 40% stat means for this villain, what the same 40% stat means for that other villain and so on. Educated guesses.
  • NC-type automatic badges - Again, the same simple question: do they cripple the spirit of the game? YES and whoever says otherwise simply doesn't understand the spirit of the game. What educated guess are you making when you see that badge telling you villain is exploitable with his BTN steals, cause he either folds too much to 3bets or calls the 3bet but then folds to the cbet in BTN vs SB dynamic "at an exploitative frequency"? What educated guess are you making when you rub your hands with excitement seeing a villain just sat at your table and he has that "smart" badge you created that tells you villain folds at an exploitative level if you double barrel on Q/K/A turns (yes, you can define this type of badge)? How is it not clear that this is stepping all over the very idea of "poker" and it turns into a coders race? You stop making educated guesses about your opponent, you just hope he has a lot of badges, so you can pound him properly, like the bad ass "poker professional" you are.
  • NC-like scatter graphs, spike graphs, heat maps etc, relating hand strength to bet sizing, timing, action taken etc - As before, the same question - are these sort of graphs killing the spirit of the game? YES. How could they not, when you can see with a single click (or 2) that all my biggish river bets are value hands and all my smallish bets are bluffs? What educated guess are you making in that spot, when you're thinking whether to call me or not with your bluff catcher? What educated guess are you making when you see that almost all my turn checks (after flop cbet) are pure air hands (no A high, no pair, no draw) that can't stand a stab on the river? And to all of those who keep saying they could extract this kind of info while away from the table, in post session review or w/e - well f.king DO IT, ok? Saying "I can do it off the table with no software assistance (besides HM/PT), so it should be allowed" it's like saying to your examiner "I didn't learn for the exam, back home, with the provided books, a pencil and a piece of paper, but I could have done it, theoretically, so let me cheat by opening the book now, during the exam". I mean, really, people have gotten so freaking lazy and keep saying "I could do this and that using my db while offline and still get the same info", but no one ever does it anymore and just keeps adding software and tables, one after another. Cybot much? If you "could" do it but never actually done it, guess what? It means you can't really do it and you're just talking like a drug addict in denial. So stop using "I could do it" as an argument, it's getting pathetic.
  • Push charts and alike - I'm a broken record by now, but w/e - are they killing the spirit of the game by completely taking away our dear educated guesses? Captain obvious is being obvious now - YES. So somehow they have got to be removed. But how can that even be done, since you can always run a skier_5 (or HU cartel) type of software on a separate computer and get instant access to the perfect strategy? I think the "solution" for this one, however nasty, is just one. Read below on enforceability.
  • Range comparison & analysis software (Flopzilla, PokerStove, Odds Oracle etc) - Again, the question doesn't even have to be asked here, since the answer is clear if you're asking the right question - are they killing the spirit of the game if used while playing? YES. However, there have been voices pointing out it's "useless" to restrict running such software since you can't really do on the spot calculations using them. But that is not the point, because you can't use them on the spot now, but maybe 6 months from now there's a super flopzilla with all kinds of ranges that are accessible with 2 clicks max and there, you can safely xrai your 10% UTG villain's flop stab in 3bet pot on xxx flop. I know I'm kinda pushing it here with the example, but trust me, it's not that far-fetched as it looks. Just compare PokerStove with flopzilla and then infer a comparison between flopzilla and flopzilla 2016 or w/e.

And the list could go on and on and on, but it's really not that hard to decide on each individual new item, if you're asking the right question - is it killing the spirit of the game? Is the user of said software still in a position to make an educated guess in the hand, while still using its benefits?

And now onto enforceability of said restrictions:
  • HUDs - no need
  • NC-type automatic badges - easy one: it has to be done on NC's end. As for other future software that could appear down the road and offer similar functionality (but in some "stealth" mode, so it wouldn't be detected) - I'm pretty certain HM/PT developers can think of some ways to monitor what apps are accessing your live db (or any other db you have, for that matter), since any such app has to connect to the db for it to work. This info can (and should) then passed on to PS software and said cheater would be kicked out the lobby faster than saying "1,2,3 badge!". I'm just talking out of my ass now, I'm just saying I'm confident there are ways to enforce it.
  • NC-like scatter graphs, spike graphs, heat maps etc, relating hand strength to bet sizing, timing, action taken etc - Same as above. Kill the functionalities in NC and always scan for any similar acting software.
  • Range comparison & analysis software (Flopzilla, PokerStove, Odds Oracle etc) - This one is clear, so no issues.
  • Push charts and alike - I intentionally kept this one for last, since it's a nasty one. To put is simply - it can't be done, objectively. Whatever system of rules you put in place (like one A4 sheet with x characters and alike) can't really be enforced, because.. how could it be? What are you gonna do, ban a player for playing "too good"? Like live casinos kick out BJ card counters? What if they play just a tad short of optimal? Where will you draw the line between a player playing "almost in accordance to xxx push charts" or just below that level? It can't be done. So the solution is a simple one, although painful - NUKE THE FORMAT. That's it, it has ran its course. What did PS do when it was clear that 20bbs minimum entry rule was being mathematically exploited by shortstackers, in such a way that they weren't playing any poker anymore? You nuked it and replaced it with 40bbs min, since the 20bb "game" got solved. That's the case now with hyper HUSNGs, it's blatantly clear an optimal solution was found and players are not really playing any poker, just pressing buttons with charts next to the table. That is not poker, so nuke the damn thing. And this way you also punish the freaking cartels that for so long ganged up on anyone who was not a member - how is that fair poker anymore? How is that not collusion?

MAN that was a long post, definitely my longest ever. So I'll end it swiftly - if you really want to live up to your "We are poker" tag line, then keep the spirit of poker alive and let us always be forced to make those freaking educated guesses.
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Old 06-16-2015, 06:16 PM   #984
ben78
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Husker View Post
Some interesting observations in that study that go against the claims made by the anti-hud crowd

'Observation 5: Winners Win More at Anonymous Tables

Observation 6: Losers Lose More at Anonymous Tables, and Go Broke Quicker'
Somebody still argues for anonymous tables after the bot scandal? When you see that PS couldn't detect bots and needed players to do their job, no thanks.
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Old 06-16-2015, 06:24 PM   #985
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamPrieto View Post
Would you tell me what is wrong at not traking cards and bet sizings? HUDs would still be able to show average % frequencies for checks, bets, calls, folds and raises for both preflop and postflop situations.
How do you analyze hands afterwards?
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Old 06-16-2015, 06:32 PM   #986
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Good Post there devera.
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Old 06-16-2015, 06:35 PM   #987
WilliamPrieto
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by ben78 View Post
How do you analyze hands afterwards?
Well, if not taking cards and bet amounts out of the HHs so may be seen at replayers and posts at foruns, i think software developers may configure their tools to not track them for statistical filtering purpose (board textures, bet sizings and hand strength).
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Old 06-16-2015, 06:49 PM   #988
DarkMattersMan
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by devera View Post
Not that it wouldn't be obvious, but here's the warning to all of you engaged in lame flame wars - WAY WAY TOO LONG, DON'T READ.

I'm taking the time (quite a lot of it) to write this because I trust PS Steve & Co will read it. Not to be disrespectful to all of you 2p2-ers, but if 1 user reads this post entirely that's already 1 more than I'd expect, considering how the thread derailed.

So let me dive into it. With the recent incredible development of poker related software, people seem to have forgotten the very spirit of this game and now they can't see the forest for the trees.

Poker is a game of chance with incomplete information. Because of that, you have to do a lot of abductive reasoning through the course of a hand, which is a fancy way of saying there are a lot of educated guesses that you're forced to make.

EDUCATED. GUESSES. That IS the spirit of the game.

So how to preserve it, with the avalanche of ever-more-advanced software popping up? Simple - any software, tool or means of assistance that kills the spirit of the game has to go. Period. It's that simple, really. So now apply this to any piece of software, tool, add-on etc that's out there.
  • HUDs - I'm talking about the classic "static" HUDs, that everyone knows. Do they cripple the spirit of the game? NO. You still have to make an educated guess about what those numbers actually mean and put them into context, regardless of how many you have in your HUD. If anything, going hud-less actually cripples the nature of the game, since you'd be forced to make guesses which are less and less "educated" and more of a gamble. Playing hud-less online poker at multiple tables leaves you almost completely in the dark about your 40+ simultaneous opponents while playing 500+ hands per hour, whereas live you can get a lot of info about your 7-8 opponents while playing 20 hands per hour (poker style & knowledge, behavioral info, conversational info, emotional info etc), a luxury you do not have online, so you use your HUD. So for online multitabling HUDs are a must and not a "cheat". Because with a HUD, however complex, you still have to envision ranges, interpret what a 40% stat means for this villain, what the same 40% stat means for that other villain and so on. Educated guesses.
  • NC-type automatic badges - Again, the same simple question: do they cripple the spirit of the game? YES and whoever says otherwise simply doesn't understand the spirit of the game. What educated guess are you making when you see that badge telling you villain is exploitable with his BTN steals, cause he either folds too much to 3bets or calls the 3bet but then folds to the cbet in BTN vs SB dynamic "at an exploitative frequency"? What educated guess are you making when you rub your hands with excitement seeing a villain just sat at your table and he has that "smart" badge you created that tells you villain folds at an exploitative level if you double barrel on Q/K/A turns (yes, you can define this type of badge)? How is it not clear that this is stepping all over the very idea of "poker" and it turns into a coders race? You stop making educated guesses about your opponent, you just hope he has a lot of badges, so you can pound him properly, like the bad ass "poker professional" you are.
  • NC-like scatter graphs, spike graphs, heat maps etc, relating hand strength to bet sizing, timing, action taken etc - As before, the same question - are these sort of graphs killing the spirit of the game? YES. How could they not, when you can see with a single click (or 2) that all my biggish river bets are value hands and all my smallish bets are bluffs? What educated guess are you making in that spot, when you're thinking whether to call me or not with your bluff catcher? What educated guess are you making when you see that almost all my turn checks (after flop cbet) are pure air hands (no A high, no pair, no draw) that can't stand a stab on the river? And to all of those who keep saying they could extract this kind of info while away from the table, in post session review or w/e - well f.king DO IT, ok? Saying "I can do it off the table with no software assistance (besides HM/PT), so it should be allowed" it's like saying to your examiner "I didn't learn for the exam, back home, with the provided books, a pencil and a piece of paper, but I could have done it, theoretically, so let me cheat by opening the book now, during the exam". I mean, really, people have gotten so freaking lazy and keep saying "I could do this and that using my db while offline and still get the same info", but no one ever does it anymore and just keeps adding software and tables, one after another. Cybot much? If you "could" do it but never actually done it, guess what? It means you can't really do it and you're just talking like a drug addict in denial. So stop using "I could do it" as an argument, it's getting pathetic.
  • Push charts and alike - I'm a broken record by now, but w/e - are they killing the spirit of the game by completely taking away our dear educated guesses? Captain obvious is being obvious now - YES. So somehow they have got to be removed. But how can that even be done, since you can always run a skier_5 (or HU cartel) type of software on a separate computer and get instant access to the perfect strategy? I think the "solution" for this one, however nasty, is just one. Read below on enforceability.
  • Range comparison & analysis software (Flopzilla, PokerStove, Odds Oracle etc) - Again, the question doesn't even have to be asked here, since the answer is clear if you're asking the right question - are they killing the spirit of the game if used while playing? YES. However, there have been voices pointing out it's "useless" to restrict running such software since you can't really do on the spot calculations using them. But that is not the point, because you can't use them on the spot now, but maybe 6 months from now there's a super flopzilla with all kinds of ranges that are accessible with 2 clicks max and there, you can safely xrai your 10% UTG villain's flop stab in 3bet pot on xxx flop. I know I'm kinda pushing it here with the example, but trust me, it's not that far-fetched as it looks. Just compare PokerStove with flopzilla and then infer a comparison between flopzilla and flopzilla 2016 or w/e.

And the list could go on and on and on, but it's really not that hard to decide on each individual new item, if you're asking the right question - is it killing the spirit of the game? Is the user of said software still in a position to make an educated guess in the hand, while still using its benefits?

And now onto enforceability of said restrictions:
  • HUDs - no need
  • NC-type automatic badges - easy one: it has to be done on NC's end. As for other future software that could appear down the road and offer similar functionality (but in some "stealth" mode, so it wouldn't be detected) - I'm pretty certain HM/PT developers can think of some ways to monitor what apps are accessing your live db (or any other db you have, for that matter), since any such app has to connect to the db for it to work. This info can (and should) then passed on to PS software and said cheater would be kicked out the lobby faster than saying "1,2,3 badge!". I'm just talking out of my ass now, I'm just saying I'm confident there are ways to enforce it.
  • NC-like scatter graphs, spike graphs, heat maps etc, relating hand strength to bet sizing, timing, action taken etc - Same as above. Kill the functionalities in NC and always scan for any similar acting software.
  • Range comparison & analysis software (Flopzilla, PokerStove, Odds Oracle etc) - This one is clear, so no issues.
  • Push charts and alike - I intentionally kept this one for last, since it's a nasty one. To put is simply - it can't be done, objectively. Whatever system of rules you put in place (like one A4 sheet with x characters and alike) can't really be enforced, because.. how could it be? What are you gonna do, ban a player for playing "too good"? Like live casinos kick out BJ card counters? What if they play just a tad short of optimal? Where will you draw the line between a player playing "almost in accordance to xxx push charts" or just below that level? It can't be done. So the solution is a simple one, although painful - NUKE THE FORMAT. That's it, it has ran its course. What did PS do when it was clear that 20bbs minimum entry rule was being mathematically exploited by shortstackers, in such a way that they weren't playing any poker anymore? You nuked it and replaced it with 40bbs min, since the 20bb "game" got solved. That's the case now with hyper HUSNGs, it's blatantly clear an optimal solution was found and players are not really playing any poker, just pressing buttons with charts next to the table. That is not poker, so nuke the damn thing. And this way you also punish the freaking cartels that for so long ganged up on anyone who was not a member - how is that fair poker anymore? How is that not collusion?

MAN that was a long post, definitely my longest ever. So I'll end it swiftly - if you really want to live up to your "We are poker" tag line, then keep the spirit of poker alive and let us always be forced to make those freaking educated guesses.
Great post man. Well constructed, well balanced and informed. I still hate HUDS full stop but I cant argue that this post is very on point, particularly touching on pokers essence and what we are losing online - The spirit of the game.
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Old 06-16-2015, 07:16 PM   #989
worried
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I read your whole post devera. a+
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Old 06-16-2015, 07:18 PM   #990
djle2
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by devera View Post
Not that it wouldn't be obvious, but here's the warning to all of you engaged in lame flame wars - WAY WAY TOO LONG, DON'T READ.

I'm taking the time (quite a lot of it) to write this because I trust PS Steve & Co will read it. Not to be disrespectful to all of you 2p2-ers, but if 1 user reads this post entirely that's already 1 more than I'd expect, considering how the thread derailed.

So let me dive into it. With the recent incredible development of poker related software, people seem to have forgotten the very spirit of this game and now they can't see the forest for the trees.

Poker is a game of chance with incomplete information. Because of that, you have to do a lot of abductive reasoning through the course of a hand, which is a fancy way of saying there are a lot of educated guesses that you're forced to make.

EDUCATED. GUESSES. That IS the spirit of the game.

So how to preserve it, with the avalanche of ever-more-advanced software popping up? Simple - any software, tool or means of assistance that kills the spirit of the game has to go. Period. It's that simple, really. So now apply this to any piece of software, tool, add-on etc that's out there.
  • HUDs - I'm talking about the classic "static" HUDs, that everyone knows. Do they cripple the spirit of the game? NO. You still have to make an educated guess about what those numbers actually mean and put them into context, regardless of how many you have in your HUD. If anything, going hud-less actually cripples the nature of the game, since you'd be forced to make guesses which are less and less "educated" and more of a gamble. Playing hud-less online poker at multiple tables leaves you almost completely in the dark about your 40+ simultaneous opponents while playing 500+ hands per hour, whereas live you can get a lot of info about your 7-8 opponents while playing 20 hands per hour (poker style & knowledge, behavioral info, conversational info, emotional info etc), a luxury you do not have online, so you use your HUD. So for online multitabling HUDs are a must and not a "cheat". Because with a HUD, however complex, you still have to envision ranges, interpret what a 40% stat means for this villain, what the same 40% stat means for that other villain and so on. Educated guesses.
  • NC-type automatic badges - Again, the same simple question: do they cripple the spirit of the game? YES and whoever says otherwise simply doesn't understand the spirit of the game. What educated guess are you making when you see that badge telling you villain is exploitable with his BTN steals, cause he either folds too much to 3bets or calls the 3bet but then folds to the cbet in BTN vs SB dynamic "at an exploitative frequency"? What educated guess are you making when you rub your hands with excitement seeing a villain just sat at your table and he has that "smart" badge you created that tells you villain folds at an exploitative level if you double barrel on Q/K/A turns (yes, you can define this type of badge)? How is it not clear that this is stepping all over the very idea of "poker" and it turns into a coders race? You stop making educated guesses about your opponent, you just hope he has a lot of badges, so you can pound him properly, like the bad ass "poker professional" you are.
  • NC-like scatter graphs, spike graphs, heat maps etc, relating hand strength to bet sizing, timing, action taken etc - As before, the same question - are these sort of graphs killing the spirit of the game? YES. How could they not, when you can see with a single click (or 2) that all my biggish river bets are value hands and all my smallish bets are bluffs? What educated guess are you making in that spot, when you're thinking whether to call me or not with your bluff catcher? What educated guess are you making when you see that almost all my turn checks (after flop cbet) are pure air hands (no A high, no pair, no draw) that can't stand a stab on the river? And to all of those who keep saying they could extract this kind of info while away from the table, in post session review or w/e - well f.king DO IT, ok? Saying "I can do it off the table with no software assistance (besides HM/PT), so it should be allowed" it's like saying to your examiner "I didn't learn for the exam, back home, with the provided books, a pencil and a piece of paper, but I could have done it, theoretically, so let me cheat by opening the book now, during the exam". I mean, really, people have gotten so freaking lazy and keep saying "I could do this and that using my db while offline and still get the same info", but no one ever does it anymore and just keeps adding software and tables, one after another. Cybot much? If you "could" do it but never actually done it, guess what? It means you can't really do it and you're just talking like a drug addict in denial. So stop using "I could do it" as an argument, it's getting pathetic.
  • Push charts and alike - I'm a broken record by now, but w/e - are they killing the spirit of the game by completely taking away our dear educated guesses? Captain obvious is being obvious now - YES. So somehow they have got to be removed. But how can that even be done, since you can always run a skier_5 (or HU cartel) type of software on a separate computer and get instant access to the perfect strategy? I think the "solution" for this one, however nasty, is just one. Read below on enforceability.
  • Range comparison & analysis software (Flopzilla, PokerStove, Odds Oracle etc) - Again, the question doesn't even have to be asked here, since the answer is clear if you're asking the right question - are they killing the spirit of the game if used while playing? YES. However, there have been voices pointing out it's "useless" to restrict running such software since you can't really do on the spot calculations using them. But that is not the point, because you can't use them on the spot now, but maybe 6 months from now there's a super flopzilla with all kinds of ranges that are accessible with 2 clicks max and there, you can safely xrai your 10% UTG villain's flop stab in 3bet pot on xxx flop. I know I'm kinda pushing it here with the example, but trust me, it's not that far-fetched as it looks. Just compare PokerStove with flopzilla and then infer a comparison between flopzilla and flopzilla 2016 or w/e.

And the list could go on and on and on, but it's really not that hard to decide on each individual new item, if you're asking the right question - is it killing the spirit of the game? Is the user of said software still in a position to make an educated guess in the hand, while still using its benefits?

And now onto enforceability of said restrictions:
  • HUDs - no need
  • NC-type automatic badges - easy one: it has to be done on NC's end. As for other future software that could appear down the road and offer similar functionality (but in some "stealth" mode, so it wouldn't be detected) - I'm pretty certain HM/PT developers can think of some ways to monitor what apps are accessing your live db (or any other db you have, for that matter), since any such app has to connect to the db for it to work. This info can (and should) then passed on to PS software and said cheater would be kicked out the lobby faster than saying "1,2,3 badge!". I'm just talking out of my ass now, I'm just saying I'm confident there are ways to enforce it.
  • NC-like scatter graphs, spike graphs, heat maps etc, relating hand strength to bet sizing, timing, action taken etc - Same as above. Kill the functionalities in NC and always scan for any similar acting software.
  • Range comparison & analysis software (Flopzilla, PokerStove, Odds Oracle etc) - This one is clear, so no issues.
  • Push charts and alike - I intentionally kept this one for last, since it's a nasty one. To put is simply - it can't be done, objectively. Whatever system of rules you put in place (like one A4 sheet with x characters and alike) can't really be enforced, because.. how could it be? What are you gonna do, ban a player for playing "too good"? Like live casinos kick out BJ card counters? What if they play just a tad short of optimal? Where will you draw the line between a player playing "almost in accordance to xxx push charts" or just below that level? It can't be done. So the solution is a simple one, although painful - NUKE THE FORMAT. That's it, it has ran its course. What did PS do when it was clear that 20bbs minimum entry rule was being mathematically exploited by shortstackers, in such a way that they weren't playing any poker anymore? You nuked it and replaced it with 40bbs min, since the 20bb "game" got solved. That's the case now with hyper HUSNGs, it's blatantly clear an optimal solution was found and players are not really playing any poker, just pressing buttons with charts next to the table. That is not poker, so nuke the damn thing. And this way you also punish the freaking cartels that for so long ganged up on anyone who was not a member - how is that fair poker anymore? How is that not collusion?

MAN that was a long post, definitely my longest ever. So I'll end it swiftly - if you really want to live up to your "We are poker" tag line, then keep the spirit of poker alive and let us always be forced to make those freaking educated guesses.
awesome post. Kind of wished it was longer. PS hire this man.

"I mean, really, people have gotten so freaking lazy and keep saying "I could do this and that using my db while offline and still get the same info", but no one ever does it anymore and just keeps adding software and tables, one after another. Cybot much? If you "could" do it but never actually done it, guess what? It means you can't really do it and you're just talking like a drug addict in denial. So stop using "I could do it" as an argument, it's getting pathetic."

^ This. This was my point exactly, People need to do all this work themselves and waste the time to do it. I bet there are many wanna be regs who cant even do it but now they have all these software to do it for them that they def are better than without it. I mean Heat maps basically gives you the villians calling range, wtf is that.

A lot of the 'for' responses to these type of programs is that to get that ifo, you need a lot of hand histories from that player. Do you even hear yourself? Those responding in such away defeats all logic which they dont have which they wouldnt be able to conclude anything in poker without these poker software

Last edited by djle2; 06-16-2015 at 07:47 PM.
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Old 06-16-2015, 07:37 PM   #991
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
HUDs
Quote:
NC-type automatic badges -
Both takes away from educated guess thing. You just drew a line somewhere and at this in a place most difficult to enforce or judge.
You are not going to distinguish between cleverly constructed "static HUD" and "badge based one".
Rules like:

1)don't allow reading any game state during play by other software
2)allow reading chat/player names but not board/bets
3)allow everything

are better idea but still I see it as a tough task to distinguish between 2) and 3) if they are cleverly programmed.
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Old 06-16-2015, 07:52 PM   #992
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

deveras post is half complete bs and other half totally understandable.

HUDs are okay, badges are not blablabla. At the end hes missing Steves whole entry post. What in the name of god has BANNING hyper turbo games to do with 3rd party software changes? Sure go ahead and change something on NoteCaddy that seems unfair. Sure ban Holy Grail of poker etc., but hyper games have been around for ages, why ban them now? You cant be a winning player with a simple chart there. If it would be like that, more people would play them. You can try if you want.

Really, the end didnt made any sense at all.
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Old 06-16-2015, 08:02 PM   #993
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

seems like someones afraid of losing their crutch
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Old 06-16-2015, 08:15 PM   #994
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by punter11235 View Post
Both takes away from educated guess thing. You just drew a line somewhere and at this in a place most difficult to enforce or judge.
You are not going to distinguish between cleverly constructed "static HUD" and "badge based one".
Well I guess we have different definitions for the "educated guess thing". To put it in very simple terms:
  • no HUDs at all - almost pure guessing, considering the environment you're playing in. Not gonna repeat the argument about online vs live, cause it's there
  • classic HUDs - sweet spot imho
  • NC-like badges - almost no guessing (in way way way to many spots, considering the sheer power of custom built badges)

Yes, I did "just drew a line somewhere" - where I truly feel the guesses stop being pure guesses, but don't get that artificially "educated" that they're not guesses at all anymore, but pure truths. I do not want to scratch my had wondering stupidly with no real info about my villain if I can value bet my second pair or not (having no HUD whatsoever), but, on the flip side, nor do I want to know precisely this villain is one I can always safely thin bet, cause my mighty badge is showing he's such a hero caller he's gonna call me with bottom pair 90%. I want the balance between these two, so that's where I drew that line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alternative 3 View Post
HUDs are okay, badges are not blablabla. At the end hes missing Steves whole entry post. What in the name of god has BANNING hyper turbo games to do with 3rd party software changes? Sure go ahead and change something on NoteCaddy that seems unfair. Sure ban Holy Grail of poker etc., but hyper games have been around for ages, why ban them now? You cant be a winning player with a simple chart there. If it would be like that, more people would play them. You can try if you want.
Really, the end didnt made any sense at all.
Yep, I'm gonna try that starting tomorrow, ok? Just let me know which stable I should join and I'm in.
Don't get... hyper. I was just saying that, since the hypers are basically solved (or extremely close to it), they're not a real game anymore. And I explicitly gave the 20bbs minimum example, as a comparison (albeit not identical situation, the point stands). I do not really care about hypers, since I never played one, and I doubt PS would listen to someone who has never played them. All I was saying is.. they're dead (or very close to it), due to a combination of factors (math, stables, coders IQ). If you have ideas about how to enforce a push chart ban (charts that will eventually be freely available, btw), I'm sure Steve will listen, as I don't imagine PS wants to ban hypers either. So chill.. Silver
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Old 06-16-2015, 08:27 PM   #995
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by devera View Post
I was just saying that, since they hypers are basically solved (or extremely close to it), they're not a real game anymore. And I explicitly gave the 20bbs minimum example. I do not really care about hypers, since I never played one, and I doubt PS would listen to someone who has never played them. All I was saying is.. they're dead (or very close to it), due to a combination of factors (math, stables, coders IQ). If you have ideas about how to enforce a push chart ban (charts that will eventually be freely available), I'm sure Steve will listen, as I don't imagine PS wants to ban hypers either. So chill.. Silver
1. I am against banning push charts. Theyve also been around ages. Who cares if someone has his UTG range as a .jpg file open. Oh my god
2. Hypers are not "solved". I have checked dozens of players and max ROI at 6max, 9max aswell as HU is about 5%-7% on micros, break even or 1-2% on mid stakes okay. Doesnt sound much but theres clearly a spread between winning regs, losing regs etc. Suprisingly top turbo stt players dont achive much more. So I guess they are solved aswell since they mainly play one hand postflop and quickly find themselve in a push or fold state aswell. Which doesnt give you the greatest edge.
Which leads us to
3. Lets get away from this whole "yes lets ban all software programs" attitude that had spread from Steves post about a small amount of programs that seem way off.
-> 3.1 live advice

Everything else should be legal since you cant properly draw a line. Check this out: A hud shows you "Villain folds 80% to cbets on Flop" (Fold to cbet Flop), a badge shows you on its popup "Villain folds 80% on A high flops". There isnt much of a difference between that for me. If you ban the one thing, you would have to ban the other thing as well. And tbh, I dont wanna play poker without a hud after paying for it. It was always legal, it should stay legal. If PokerStars thinks new fancy live advice stuff needs to be regulated, I have no problem with that. Ofc I dont wanna play against robots. Imo auto notes and normal HUDs are totally fine and btw. enough for the game.

Last edited by alternative 3; 06-16-2015 at 08:35 PM.
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Old 06-16-2015, 08:37 PM   #996
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

And tbh, I dont wanna play poker without a hud after paying for it. It was always legal, it should stay legal


hahahhahaha i dont really care if huds are banned or not that was pretty funny
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Old 06-16-2015, 08:42 PM   #997
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by golfbum983 View Post
And tbh, I dont wanna play poker without a hud after paying for it. It was always legal, it should stay legal


hahahhahaha i dont really care if huds are banned or not that was pretty funny
Don't know whats funny about it, because this whole thread isn't supposed to be about the usage of huds. Steve cleary said its not about HUDs, and I am very sure they are not banning them. The people here simply can't stick to the topic.
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Old 06-16-2015, 08:43 PM   #998
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

the topic is about software and what should be allowed in the future.....i believe huds are software?
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Old 06-16-2015, 08:48 PM   #999
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by alternative 3 View Post
Check this out: A hud shows you "Villain folds 80% to cbets on Flop" (Fold to cbet Flop), a badge shows you on its popup "Villain folds 80% on A high flops". There isnt much of a difference between that for me. If you ban the one thing, you would have to ban the other thing as well. And tbh, I dont wanna play poker without a hud after paying for it. It was always legal, it should stay legal.
FWIW, I was talking about HUSNGs hypers, which actually were the reason this whole thread was started by PS Steve. I admit I am really curious how PS will handle this thing, since it's clear skier_5 software (or whatever it is) started so much heat that PS felt the need to change/tweak/clarify the rules about what is and what is not permitted.

As for your comparison with fold to cbet stat - first, it's absolutely clear the badge is more powerful than the simple HM stat (on 1 order of magnitude, since it adds another dimension - flop texture). But let's say they're somewhat similar, since you picked the simplest one you could think of. But what about a badge that pops up when villain folds to much on turn scare cards? Or on rivered flushes? Or on paired boards? Do you realize I can have a HUD with 100 regular HM stats and not have nearly the amount of info a HUD with 30 stats+however many badges I decide to build myself (or buy)? With the added benefits that the badgey HUD would look more organized, is more easily readable and, on top of it all, way more accurate and ACTIONABLE (since it's identifying all the good spots for me, in an instant)? No, they are not the same, there's a very big difference between the two - conceptually, structurally, logically etc.

Last edited by devera; 06-16-2015 at 08:55 PM.
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Old 06-16-2015, 08:49 PM   #1000
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

And what point exactly in the proposal suggests to ban HM2 and PT4? The topic is should people be allowed to use software that are making decisions for them or giving away too much information. Not about software that thousands and thousands of players are using since years. Its about the new **** that costs like a fortune and not every micro player is using. (ever checked what A) NC Premium which you need for B) Badges cost you?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by devera View Post
But let's say they're somewhat similar, since you picked the simplest one you could think of. But what about a badge that pops up when villain folds to much on turn scare cards? Or on rivered flushes? Or on paired boards? Do you realize I can have a HUD with 100 regular HM stats and not have nearly the amount of info a HUD with 30 stats+however many badges I decide to build myself (or buy)? With the added benefits that the badgey HUD would look more organized, is more easily readable and, on top of it all, way more accurate (since it's identifying all the good spots for me, in an instant)? No, they are not the same, there's a very big difference between the two - conceptually, structurally, logically etc.
True. I believe its an advantage bigger than a normal hud. Thats the new **** I am talking about. I never used badges tho, cant say how "deep" they go.
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