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Old 06-16-2015, 02:14 PM   #951
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

confirmed
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Old 06-16-2015, 02:20 PM   #952
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

skier, what are your views regarding post session analysis? It would be ok to use a HUD or a powerful tracker?
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Old 06-16-2015, 02:25 PM   #953
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by skier_5 View Post
Let’s take a second to look at how silly this gap in aid types really is. If the rules go forward as is, anyone with two A4 sheets on their desk is cheating. However, as far as I can tell there are no issues with 10000 character notes, and HUDs can cover virtually unlimited numbers of statistics and details.

I took it upon myself to ‘flatten’ a couple of the ProPokerHUDS:

Please make sure you have fully zoomed in as your browser/image editor/etc WILL display these to you zoomed out.

Exhibit A weighs in at 4250 × 7305 pixels. And it is of the ProPokerHUDs MTT HUD. I copied every single panel I could find into an image, and then I tried to approximate the surface area of the tool tips (there are 126+ stats on the hud and every single one has a tool tip) and then I copied it 9 times to represent all of the information available for one single table.
http://2.1m.yt/aQhbqqemk.png


Exhibit B weights in at a whopping 12090 × 14688 pixels and is so large an image site would not take it. This one is of the 6 max heat map pack. In this HUD each player has 21 statistics, each of which display a heat map. Each hand in each heat map has a tooltip. All of these items have been flattened to approximate the surface area for a the HUD on a 6 player table. You’ll have to download this one: http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=...17262317610807

It gets worse, Heat Maps are coming to the MTT HUD and add on packs with hundreds of stats are available so these could be much, much bigger. I hate to see what throwing NoteCaddy into the mix could do. Not only that, but the statistic add on packs tell you how many stats they have and how many stats (1600!!) exceed the PokerTracker cache limit! [1] Call me presumptuous, but, would that exist if people were not hitting that limit? Let’s not forget HUDs breaking the proposed content rules of reference material either (Under the new rules, prohibited while the client is open: "Any tool or reference material that offers commentary or advice that goes beyond a basic level, such as stack-size-based starting hand tables, decision trees or heads-up displays that dynamically change based on player action or card values."):



My HUD can even display the relevant one for the current street without any intervention by me! I think this disconnect between rules relating to various levels of ‘aid’ is just going to lead to a bunch of loopholes where the undesired behaviour will be piled into the aid type with the least stringent of rules. With the proposed rules, many HUDs could not have the information they provide access to saved in a static file (or printed on paper) and then accessed in game because the amount of information in them would likely far exceed the size of an A4 sheet! It's unbelievable that I can have software updating displayed information in real time hand after hand, but yet I cannot print the same information and tack it to my wall! (Pokerstars said: "The basic reference material we would permit is something like a single table-based starting hand chart that can be replicated on an A4 sheet of paper.")

[1] http://www.pokerhuds.com/product/flo...ure-stat-pack/
Agreed, all in-game computer aids need to be banned. That is the most fair solution.
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Old 06-16-2015, 02:26 PM   #954
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

You conveniently skipped this part of the rule:
"decision trees or heads-up displays that dynamically change based on player action or card values"

For popup to be against the rules, it would have to change based on action taken in hand or card values.

Good points otherwise, seems like some kind of limit to number of displayed stats should be considered as part of the rules too. But popups you used in your first example are not really displaying additional info, just the stat that you mouseover. However it does illustrate the "problem" with the amount of information that is available in a hud relatively well.
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Old 06-16-2015, 02:30 PM   #955
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

dynamically change or can be changed?
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Old 06-16-2015, 02:32 PM   #956
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by ra]\\[dom View Post
You conveniently skipped this part of the rule:
"decision trees or heads-up displays that dynamically change based on player action or card values"

For popup to be against the rules, it would have to change based on action taken in hand or card values.

Good points otherwise, seems like some kind of limit to number of displayed stats should be considered as part of the rules too. But popups you used in your first example are not really displaying additional info, just the stat that you mouseover. However it does illustrate the "problem" with the amount of information that is available in a hud relatively well.
I interpret the second half of that sentence to refer to HUDs and the decision tree part to refer to reference material and I'm saying that it's nuts that it's allowed in HUDs but not reference material. I also realise popups are not against the rules. All I'm trying to say is that there is an insane gap in the proposed rules for different aid types.

Yes, the tooltips are not as valuable as the rest of the info, but they clearly have some value or they would not be there.
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Old 06-16-2015, 02:35 PM   #957
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by onlinepokerwiz View Post

According to a study made by Microgaming on which they compare regular cash game tables (Where HUDs are allowed) vs Anonymous table (Where the use of a HUD its unpractical and stupid) and after 175 million hands they came up with these conclusions...
(Source: http://www.thempn.eu/blog/world-without-huds/)

1. In games with HUDs, there is less action. Players bet less, and when they do bet, the bets are smaller. Pots are smaller as a result.
2. In games with HUDs, players multi-table more.
3. In games with HUDs, winners win less, because pots are smaller.
4. In games with HUDs, losers lose less, also because pots are smaller.
5. In games with HUDs, winners pay more rake per Euro they win (but less per hand, because pots are smaller).
6. In games with HUDs, variance is lower, and poor players are more consistent losers as a result.


[...]

+1

To battle this... PokerStars (and other pokersites) already made a brilliant strategic move when they changed from dealt rake to weight-contributed rake. This had a bigger impact on tight players (forcing tight grinders to change their gamestyle if they wanted the same amount of rakeback). Why doesn't PokerStars experiment more with this? They can even use Full Tilt as their test-platform: for example bring back dealt rake to Full Tilt, so some very tight HUD using multi-tabling grinders might move to Full Tilt.

#

Last edited by Patvs; 06-16-2015 at 02:42 PM.
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Old 06-16-2015, 02:38 PM   #958
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4-Star General View Post
skier, what are your views regarding post session analysis? It would be ok to use a HUD or a powerful tracker?
I'm not against it and I'm not even against HUDs. I do think that limiting after session analysis is a completely different level of insanity both out of principal and sheer lack of ability to enforce. I'm also not against severely limiting the amount of software which we can use while we play if that can be done in a fair and consistent manner. I'm not convinced it can. However, I do think there are some steps (see my megapost) which can be taken to limit the amount of software/info players do rely on in game.
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Old 06-16-2015, 02:40 PM   #959
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by skier_5 View Post
going to lead to a bunch of loopholes where the undesired behaviour will be piled into the aid type with the least stringent of rules.
Yes

There is no easy solution.
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Old 06-16-2015, 02:42 PM   #960
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

You need to understand that this is a huge business for PokerStars.

Saying that something is "unenforceable" is really limited vision. They are not interested in clients leaving. They have harder times ahead, when more bots will appear which will put a big danger on whole idea of online poker. At that point some very "unpopular" decisions (among software developers and their clients) are bound to happen.

So the status quo can't stay like this forever. At some point something will become a no-no. That something can't be a mass product then. And few users of such software can face a bankroll confiscation as a punishment. So it will be very risky to use it. Few can try, but they'll fit a certain profile. Some will get caught and others will be unmotivated to risk so much.

In the end software bots will probably win, but PokerStars aren't interested in that happening anytime soon.

And lol at people threatening to leave if NoteCaddy is banned from the real time list. Its just nonsense.

For example, I don't think a built in limited HUD and everything else being banned is a very unrealistic end result.
They need HUD so more people play more hands per hour. They got enough money to make it happen.
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Old 06-16-2015, 02:45 PM   #961
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by onlinepokerwiz View Post
According to a study made by Microgaming on which they compare regulare cash game tables (Where HUDs are allowed) vs Anonymous table (Where the use of a HUD its unpractical and stupid) and after 175 million hands they came up with these conclusions...
(Source: http://www.thempn.eu/blog/world-without-huds/)

1. In games with HUDs, there is less action. Players bet less, and when they do bet, the bets are smaller. Pots are smaller as a result.
2. In games with HUDs, players multi-table more.
3. In games with HUDs, winners win less, because pots are smaller.
4. In games with HUDs, losers lose less, also because pots are smaller.
5. In games with HUDs, winners pay more rake per Euro they win (but less per hand, because pots are smaller).
6. In games with HUDs, variance is lower, and poor players are more consistent losers as a result.
Some interesting observations in that study that go against the claims made by the anti-hud crowd

'Observation 5: Winners Win More at Anonymous Tables

Observation 6: Losers Lose More at Anonymous Tables, and Go Broke Quicker'
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Old 06-16-2015, 02:45 PM   #962
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by ra]\\[dom View Post
You conveniently skipped this part of the rule:
"decision trees or heads-up displays that dynamically change based on player action or card values"

For popup to be against the rules, it would have to change based on action taken in hand or card values.
It could also be against the new rule merely because it "goes beyond a basic level". The fact that something isn't explicitly given in the "such as" examples doesn't means it's allowed.

For example, if the law on murder was written as:

"It's illegal to murder people ..... like errr, such as sticking a knife into them."

The second part doesn't limit the first part to only covering knifings.

So the stack size/dynamic stuff in our "such as" clause doesn't legalise things which break the actual rule in the first half of the sentence.

BTW this is a good example of what I wrote earlier why the examples should be canned and there should be actual definitions of what going beyond a basic level entails.
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Old 06-16-2015, 02:49 PM   #963
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by king acehole View Post
Agreed, all in-game computer aids need to be banned. That is the most fair solution.
How do they catch people that don't follow this rule?!?

I am confused.
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Old 06-16-2015, 02:54 PM   #964
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

catch cheaters
lookup rule
ban
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Old 06-16-2015, 02:54 PM   #965
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Rant View Post
How do they catch people that don't follow this rule?!?

I am confused.
  • Stronger Terms and Conditions.
  • More built in monitoring features.
  • HandHistories available a day after they were played

There are so many options, it just requires some brainstorming and some smart engineers.
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Old 06-16-2015, 02:56 PM   #966
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

On the earlier dispute about early Notecaddy links, here is the earliest web page of Notecaddy under the assaultware URL that I could find from the internet archives, 11 Oct 2011
https://web.archive.org/web/20111011...ote_Caddy.aspx

And prior to that, with a notecaddy URL, going back to the beta release 7 June 2010
https://web.archive.org/web/20110902...com/index.aspx
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Old 06-16-2015, 03:03 PM   #967
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

"don't fix it if is not broken"
The system as it is is working just fine, a lot of software developers have puts thousands of work hours on their legit tools, and thousands of users have bought the software and worked very hard learning how to use it, why would pokerstars change the rules if they are going to affect many users if things are fine as they are? if some people don't like the tools just dont buy them and dont use them, simple as that.

I dont need the tools to beat bad players, that is just an excuse for losing players, they always have to blame someone, blame stars, luck or even say online sites are rigged, I use the tools to get better because I really like working on my game, so if I put thousands of hours making math, reviewing my game, buying all kinds of software and paying for coaching is not like I'm doing something unfair as anyone could just do the same if they wanted to...

so this changes might not really attract new users, but sure will affect many regulars and that might drive them away...

Last edited by M_Acevedo; 06-16-2015 at 03:17 PM.
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Old 06-16-2015, 03:04 PM   #968
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Husker View Post
Some interesting observations in that study that go against the claims made by the anti-hud crowd

'Observation 5: Winners Win More at Anonymous Tables

Observation 6: Losers Lose More at Anonymous Tables, and Go Broke Quicker'
I'm not qute the anti HUD crowd but you are reading the paper wrong.

Variance is higher on annon tables, pots relative to the blinds are bigger - this means it is more FUN for the rec not that it is worse for them. It means that they can splash around, ok maybe at a lower blind level, but get the all in multi street higher variance game that is FUN.

Now that might well mean they spend more but asuming he is getting some enjoyable action for it he is getting value.

Meanwhile, Being relentlessly ground down in a low variance non anon environment with smaller pots and less action is appealing for who? ahh yes the grinder (think about that name BTW) playing many tables for a living, not so good for the rec.
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Old 06-16-2015, 03:07 PM   #969
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by VP$IP View Post
On the earlier dispute about early Notecaddy links, here is the earliest web page of Notecaddy under the assaultware URL that I could find from the internet archives, 11 Oct 2011
https://web.archive.org/web/20111011...ote_Caddy.aspx

And prior to that, with a notecaddy URL, going back to the beta release 7 June 2010
https://web.archive.org/web/20110902...com/index.aspx
Thanks for finding that. I don't see anything recommending datamining here. So I guess that is your proof you were asking for, Richas.
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Old 06-16-2015, 03:08 PM   #970
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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[*]HandHistories available a day after they were played
.
What can you do against screen scraping?
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Old 06-16-2015, 03:11 PM   #971
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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What can you do against screen scraping?
Do you think nothing can be done?
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Old 06-16-2015, 03:14 PM   #972
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by M_Acevedo View Post
"don't fix it if is not broken"
The system as it is is working just fine, a lot of software developers have puts thousands of work hours on their legit tools, and thousands of users have bought the software and worked very hard learning how to use it, why would pokerstars change the rules if they are going to affect many users if things are fine as they are?
because at the current rate things are going there won't be a pokerstars left to defend
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Old 06-16-2015, 03:16 PM   #973
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by M_Acevedo View Post
"don't fix it if is not broken"
The system as it is is working just fine, a lot of software developers have puts thousands of work hours on their legit tools, and thousands of users have bought the software and worked very hard learning how to use it, why would pokerstars change the rules if they are going to affect many users if things are fine as they are? if some people don't like the tools just dont buy them and dont use them, simple as that.

I dont need the tools to beat bad players, that is just an excuse for losing players, they always have to blame someone, blame stars, luck or even say online sites are rigged, I use the tools to get better because I really like working on my game, so if I put thousands of hours making math, reviewing my game, buying all kinds of software and paying for coaching is not like I'm doing something unfair as anyone could just do the same if they wanted to...
big lol @ things "being fine"
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Old 06-16-2015, 03:21 PM   #974
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richas View Post
I'm not qute the anti HUD crowd but you are reading the paper wrong.

Variance is higher on annon tables, pots relative to the blinds are bigger - this means it is more FUN for the rec not that it is worse for them. It means that they can splash around, ok maybe at a lower blind level, but get the all in multi street higher variance game that is FUN.

Now that might well mean they spend more but asuming he is getting some enjoyable action for it he is getting value.

Meanwhile, Being relentlessly ground down in a low variance non anon environment with smaller pots and less action is appealing for who? ahh yes the grinder (think about that name BTW) playing many tables for a living, not so good for the rec.
No, I'm not reading the paper wrong. In big writing it clearly states the following:

Observation 5: Winners Win More at Anonymous Tables

Observation 6: Losers Lose More at Anonymous Tables, and Go Broke Quicker


Those are the facts.
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Old 06-16-2015, 03:24 PM   #975
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by nostrakhan View Post
Thanks for finding that. I don't see anything recommending datamining here. So I guess that is your proof you were asking for, Richas.
It is some evidence but well short of full disclosure never mind proof. Certainly helps the case for NC now let's wait for the one making the allegation to return to the fray.
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