Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Internet Poker Discussions of Internet poker venues, including RB & bonuses.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-16-2015, 11:19 AM   #926
Richas
veteran
 
Richas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: On the learning curve
Posts: 3,440
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by FR-Nit View Post
You are highly sophomoric. Don't wanna destroy your fool's paradise, but theories assembled in your woozy head don't account as proof. I asked you to backup your claim (screenshots are welcome). If you can't provide this, you have to withdraw your statement as it's blatant libel.
I don't think you get libel. I believe the allegation. I said so. Meanwhile you "know" - how? I don't have the burden of proof here, I am asserting belief, it is you asserting certainty (with zero evidence).

Anyway I'm bored now, HEM and NC et al are routinely used by data cheats. The s/w providers make no effort to prevent that cheating, indeed they add functionality to enable the cheats to merge data and run the automated notes on the cheat data.

There is absolutely no reason why HEM should not declare itself to the poker client and allow the poker site to check the data being used by it vs the player's personal history on the site. Frankly it is astounding that Stars and HEM have not already done this unless the HUD makers don't want data cheats caught.

Amazing that Stars and PT (now merged with HEM) can produce a working HUD for zoom on day one of the product launch but at the same time completely ignore setting up a mechanism to police data cheating.
Richas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2015, 11:26 AM   #927
sixfour
should be called sevenfour
 
sixfour's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Tungsten Analysis
Posts: 69,030
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by FR-Nit View Post
You are highly sophomoric. Don't wanna destroy your fool's paradise, but theories assembled in your woozy head don't account as proof. I asked you to backup your claim (screenshots are welcome). If you can't provide this, you have to withdraw your statement as it's blatant libel.
ah, it's descended into comedic legal threats
sixfour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2015, 11:35 AM   #928
FR-Nit
adept
 
FR-Nit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 981
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richas View Post
I don't have the burden of proof here, I am asserting belief, it is you asserting certainty (with zero evidence).
Yes, you have. In legal regards the burden of proof is up to you when accused of libel/defamation....but probably crossing your intellectual horizon here. Never mind, have a nice day
FR-Nit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2015, 11:42 AM   #929
sixfour
should be called sevenfour
 
sixfour's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Tungsten Analysis
Posts: 69,030
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by FR-Nit View Post
Yes, you have. In legal regards the burden of proof is up to you when accused of libel/defamation....but probably crossing your intellectual horizon here. Never mind, have a nice day
depends on where it's tried. in the us, and let's not forget this is a us-based site, burden of proof's on the plaintiff to show the statement's false. and you've also got to show damage, which is kind of comical for a post on an internet forum. have a nice day!
sixfour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2015, 11:49 AM   #930
ontheupandup
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 244
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Lol at NoteCaddy shills pretending they don't datamine. Only way you could get a large enough hand sample vs regs for it to be useful would be if you play at least 400nl (smaller player pools), by which point you and your reg opponents should be competent enough that NC is basically redundant.

Fact of the matter is, NC is blatantly a tool to be used in conjunction with datamined hands, primarily by micro/low stakes grinders who are too lazy/brain dead to think for themselves.
ontheupandup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2015, 11:56 AM   #931
FR-Nit
adept
 
FR-Nit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 981
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by sixfour View Post
depends on where it's tried. in the us, and let's not forget this is a us-based site, burden of proof's on the plaintiff to show the statement's false. and you've also got to show damage, which is kind of comical for a post on an internet forum. have a nice day!
Comical that you think that it's ok to post unbased assumptions on the internet and also comical that you think that this can't result in damage.
FR-Nit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2015, 11:58 AM   #932
Richas
veteran
 
Richas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: On the learning curve
Posts: 3,440
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by FR-Nit View Post
Yes, you have. In legal regards the burden of proof is up to you when accused of libel/defamation....but probably crossing your intellectual horizon here. Never mind, have a nice day
Sheeeeeet, I have had a proper libel threat (from an anti boookie but pro casino millionaire).

I have no burden of proof - try googling "fair comment" or "reasonable belief". I have more than met that threshold and given you are some guy refusing to say how you "know" different it would be pretty hard for you to show any damages even if I had not (easily) met these thresholds already.

Plus of course there could be the whole truth defence if anyone wanted to push it and let me get disclosure.

If the NoteCaddy guys want to send me a letter from their solicitors, try the PM option but pffft I have no liability here, no lost sleep for me. I believe on the balance of probabilities (the threshold, actually I believe it a bit more) that NoteCaddy did indeed have commercial links to dataminers, I also believe that HEM and NC have made no efforts to prevent data cheating, indeed they have functionality to help data cheaters (truth defence BTW).

Go on, make my day.
Richas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2015, 12:30 PM   #933
FR-Nit
adept
 
FR-Nit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 981
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

@ Richas

Kind of useless to discuss with you. Keep posting your lies......tells a lot about your personality!
FR-Nit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2015, 12:36 PM   #934
cneuy3
old hand
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,593
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I'm not sure where to post this suggestion so I'll post it here but I know that there have been some suggestions inside this thread of Pokersites moving towards anonymous tables as a solution to some problems; data mining; targeting players, etc.

My opinion is that anonymous tables as they are now on a lot of the pokersites lack personality for lack of a better word. I just watched a Bovado video on RunItOnce of Phil Galfond playing on these tables and there is just a seat number next to the players he is playing against.

I know some of said, allow players to routinely change their screen names as a solution. Instead why not just have a player's identity chosen at random every time that they log into play a session. Instead of giving them a number have them be a fox, rabbit, zebra, etc. idk. Maybe verge into the DC comics, famous people, other avenues, and have Superman, Batman, etc screen names, possible avatars at your tables. Just overall make anonymity a bit more personal.

Think about when we play games like monopoly, you are not handed a boring number card but instead you pick a thimble, dog, etc.

I think this would make anonymous tables a lot more personal and fun. I'm a tournament player mostly and do not play on any anonymous sites as of now but I'm assuming the experience is when you move to new tables you are playing a bunch of seat numbers? In my opinion that would seem really impersonal and make it much more difficult to even mentally take notes on players during that session. It would be much more fun to put an action with a "fun" screen name or character.
cneuy3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2015, 12:51 PM   #935
||||
grinder
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 578
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by nostrakhan View Post
Pokerstars Steve hasn't said anything else besides the first post in this thread. He said "• NoteCaddy as is would require changes. It is permissible for HUDs to filter / drill down via street, but not by action facing or hole card / communicate card values."

We're not sure what that means. As far as I know NoteCaddy complies with this already. Being able to create definitions/stats in NoteCaddy will still be possible no matter what I think. But we'll have to see what Pokerstars decides to be sure of the full functionalities which it will allow.

Thanks a lot mate
|||| is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2015, 12:53 PM   #936
heathen1
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 86
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

fr-nit cry all you want buddy. your software is going to be banned regardless of how much you whine in this thread. Stop insulting people please.
heathen1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2015, 12:53 PM   #937
Deduction
centurion
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 143
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Need research or pool among all players not just 2+2 community.

I would say ban everything in a year and import some features to PS client (HERO total hands stat, HERO winrate stat, possibility to see stacks in BB...)
Deduction is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2015, 12:58 PM   #938
sixfour
should be called sevenfour
 
sixfour's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Tungsten Analysis
Posts: 69,030
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deduction View Post
possibility to see stacks in BB...)
you need software help to do simple division? jesus
sixfour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2015, 01:04 PM   #939
FR-Nit
adept
 
FR-Nit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 981
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by heathen1 View Post
fr-nit cry all you want buddy. your software is going to be banned regardless of how much you whine in this thread. Stop insulting people please.
There is a difference between insulting people and calling someone out for posting lies. When you grow up you'll understand this......buddy.
FR-Nit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2015, 01:11 PM   #940
ArtyMcFly
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
ArtyMcFly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Enchantment Under the Sea
Posts: 13,251
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmiko View Post
On Pokerstars there is a fish at almost every table. There are 2 fish at a TON of tables. There are 3 fish at a LOT of tables. There are 4-5 fish at some tables. The other seats are filled mostly by terrible regs. Good winning regs are few and far between. There is also a LOT of terrible whales who play 80-100 VPIP or just open shove and a TON of huge whales paying 50+ VPIP.
Let me know when you arrive home from whatever planet you're currently orbiting, but feel free to send a screengrab as a postcard to show how nice it is up there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by greg nice View Post
I just wanted to say that I appreciated ^this^. Decent summary of the situation. MeleaB's comments ITT were legit too.
ArtyMcFly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2015, 01:23 PM   #941
heathen1
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 86
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by raidalot View Post
atm new online poker players are being conned. Think of the guy who has played with friends/family on the kitchen table and watched a bit of poker on TV and now wants to play online. He reasonably assumes he is playing on the same terms as everyone else. He knows some of his opponents read books etc and most are more experienced than him. But when he signs up, nothing in the advertising etc tells him that some of his opponents are using tools which provide a significant advantage (and no, we can't assume he reads the fine print of the T&C). Nothing tells him that his opponents can see more information on their screen than he can on his. He has been sold one experience but, in practice, he receives another.

If HUDs are allowed then, as part of the sign-up process, all new players should be clearly warned about their use by others and informed of the option to buy and use one themselves.
Couldn't have said it better myself.Great post
heathen1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2015, 01:33 PM   #942
DarkMattersMan
adept
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 961
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

This just in...

Civil action launched for defamation.

Plaintiff NoteCaddy

v

Defendant Richas.

All rise.

Last edited by DarkMattersMan; 06-16-2015 at 01:34 PM. Reason: lol libelments
DarkMattersMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2015, 01:38 PM   #943
TheDefiniteArticle
Indecisive
 
TheDefiniteArticle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Bristol, UK
Posts: 14,090
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

We might not be able to assume that he has actually read the T&C fineprint but ticking a box stating that one has read and understood T&Cs goes a very long way to obliterating any suggestion of unfairness. It's their fault for not having actually read them.
TheDefiniteArticle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2015, 01:45 PM   #944
heathen1
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 86
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Oh please, who actually reads the T&C.
heathen1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2015, 01:46 PM   #945
heathen1
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 86
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by piet_evil View Post
do you think your propaganda is worth anything here nostrakhan ? you make your livelyhood through notecaddy, obv you have just your own interest in mind
nostrakhan
See my Commercial Software thread
heathen1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2015, 01:49 PM   #946
Richas
veteran
 
Richas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: On the learning curve
Posts: 3,440
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDefiniteArticle View Post
We might not be able to assume that he has actually read the T&C fineprint but ticking a box stating that one has read and understood T&Cs goes a very long way to obliterating any suggestion of unfairness. It's their fault for not having actually read them.
Yeah right,

http://www.theguardian.com/technolog...y-herod-clause

Quote:
The experiment, which was backed by European law enforcement agency Europol, involved a group of security researchers setting up a Wi-Fi hotspot in June.

When people connected to the hotspot, the terms and conditions they were asked to sign up to included a “Herod clause” promising free Wi-Fi but only if “the recipient agreed to assign their first born child to us for the duration of eternity”. Six people signed up.
Richas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2015, 01:54 PM   #947
TheDefiniteArticle
Indecisive
 
TheDefiniteArticle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Bristol, UK
Posts: 14,090
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Just because people don't actually read the T&Cs doesn't mean it isn't their fault for agreeing to something they only have imputed knowledge of. If it was something severely unreasonable, they might have to do more than include a tickbox but the permission to use software is nothing that could come anywhere close.
TheDefiniteArticle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2015, 01:57 PM   #948
skier_5
Pooh-Bah
 
skier_5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: London
Posts: 5,443
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Let’s take a second to look at how silly this gap in aid types really is. If the rules go forward as is, anyone with two A4 sheets on their desk is cheating. However, as far as I can tell there are no issues with 10000 character notes, and HUDs can cover virtually unlimited numbers of statistics and details.

I took it upon myself to ‘flatten’ a couple of the ProPokerHUDS:

Please make sure you have fully zoomed in as your browser/image editor/etc WILL display these to you zoomed out.

Exhibit A weighs in at 4250 × 7305 pixels. And it is of the ProPokerHUDs MTT HUD. I copied every single panel I could find into an image, and then I tried to approximate the surface area of the tool tips (there are 126+ stats on the hud and every single one has a tool tip) and then I copied it 9 times to represent all of the information available for one single table.
http://2.1m.yt/aQhbqqemk.png


Exhibit B weights in at a whopping 12090 × 14688 pixels and is so large an image site would not take it. This one is of the 6 max heat map pack. In this HUD each player has 21 statistics, each of which display a heat map. Each hand in each heat map has a tooltip. All of these items have been flattened to approximate the surface area for a the HUD on a 6 player table. You’ll have to download this one: http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=...17262317610807

It gets worse, Heat Maps are coming to the MTT HUD and add on packs with hundreds of stats are available so these could be much, much bigger. I hate to see what throwing NoteCaddy into the mix could do. Not only that, but the statistic add on packs tell you how many stats they have and how many stats (1600!!) exceed the PokerTracker cache limit! [1] Call me presumptuous, but, would that exist if people were not hitting that limit? Let’s not forget HUDs breaking the proposed content rules of reference material either (Under the new rules, prohibited while the client is open: "Any tool or reference material that offers commentary or advice that goes beyond a basic level, such as stack-size-based starting hand tables, decision trees or heads-up displays that dynamically change based on player action or card values."):



My HUD can even display the relevant one for the current street without any intervention by me! I think this disconnect between rules relating to various levels of ‘aid’ is just going to lead to a bunch of loopholes where the undesired behaviour will be piled into the aid type with the least stringent of rules. With the proposed rules, many HUDs could not have the information they provide access to saved in a static file (or printed on paper) and then accessed in game because the amount of information in them would likely far exceed the size of an A4 sheet! It's unbelievable that I can have software updating displayed information in real time hand after hand, but yet I cannot print the same information and tack it to my wall! (Pokerstars said: "The basic reference material we would permit is something like a single table-based starting hand chart that can be replicated on an A4 sheet of paper.")

[1] http://www.pokerhuds.com/product/flo...ure-stat-pack/
skier_5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2015, 02:09 PM   #949
4-Star General
adept
 
4-Star General's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,012
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

decision trees could mean different things like realtime calculation of subtrees... what propokerhuds made was a better visual of a table...
You can arrange those stat in a table and get the exact same thing
4-Star General is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2015, 02:11 PM   #950
skier_5
Pooh-Bah
 
skier_5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: London
Posts: 5,443
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4-Star General View Post
decision trees could mean different things... who propokerhuds made was a better visual of a table...
You can arrange those stat in a table and get the exact same thing
Can you give me an example of a decision tree which can not also be arranged in a table? A decision tree is just another form of presenting data and it's yet another tick in the madness column.
skier_5 is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:12 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive