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Old 06-16-2015, 08:49 AM   #901
FR-Nit
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Richas View Post
Clearly not, I am told that when NoteCaddy was first marketed it came with links to data mining sites and discounts, indeed it is earlier in this thread.
That is not a backup for your claim. I gave you this advice already earlier in this thread:

Quote:
In case you have no clue about something, don't make claims about it. Not on the internet, not in real life.
....but obv i'm casting pearls before swine.
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Old 06-16-2015, 08:54 AM   #902
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Husker View Post
You never answered my question, are you seriously suggesting people wouldn't buy HEM/PT and would play without a hud purely because they couldn't data-mine?

And as someone who plays micro-stakes I can tell you that your assumption is, yet again, wrong.
They would buy the tracker/HUD that lets them cheat, currently that is any of them. IF Stars get their cooperation then Star could check the data used vs the player's history in which case the cheaters would have to use a banned HUD and so finding/detecting them for just using a non approved HUD would be enough evidence to close the account and seize the balance.

I'm sure HEM NC et al is helpful for the non data cheat, but adding the cheat data makes it hugely more powerful, especially at the lower levels and vs recs where the extra sample size data cheting delivers is especially useful as the worst players have the more extreme errors, the bigger exploitable spots.

Alan Jackson and co have some pretty esoteric add ons for high skill high stakes players that target players that are pretty strong overall, others supply the customisation that is especially powerful vs recs and microstakes players.
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Old 06-16-2015, 08:58 AM   #903
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by FR-Nit View Post
That is not a backup for your claim. I gave you this advice already earlier in this thread:

....but obv i'm casting pearls before swine.
I am told they did it, I have no reason to disbelieve them, what makes you so adamant that the claim is false - how do you know I'm being lied to?

I certainly know what it is like to lose a necklace or two in the muck.
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Old 06-16-2015, 09:05 AM   #904
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Got to chime in here because I think everyone is getting it wrong and the conversation has steered considerably.

I think unenforceable policies are always going to be bad for the game, all it does is favor rule breakers ahead of honest players. The proposed changes would ban for example a piece of paper with a preflop push fold chart. It should be obvious to everyone that if that kind of policy were in effect, it would be overreaching -- how can Stars police what kind of paper you have in front of your computer monitor? More importantly, it won't actually change anything. People will still print out the chart or use a second computer or whatever anyways.

I think Pokerstars was caught in a hard spot. While skier's program didn't officially break any rules, it put bad PR on the situation; and because of privacy they couldn't really directly out what skier's program did or did not do, so it made it hard to communicate the facts and made people feel they were unfairly being taken advantage of.

I think a fair policy is that dynamic/adaptive information should be against the rules whereas static information is okay. So for example if you have an excel spreadsheet of strategies or a paper copy print out (that you yourself reference or search which part of the spreadsheet is relevant to your hand), then you can use that; but you cannot have a computer reference your hand to provide stats specific to the hand in question. (Eg. you are on the button or 10bb so bring up the button chart or the 10bb chart.) That would also rule out some forms of HUD use.

Fwiw I also think a random number generator that spits out a random integer from 1-100 every 5 seconds should be allowed. It falls under "static" in the sense that no information that was about a specific hand was used as input to change what was outputted. Similarly, Pokerstove should be allowed.

In my opinion this is the only sane policy. A policy that is unenforceable or unrealistic will only create disdain of the rules and push otherwise legitimate players into being more willing to break other rules.

Last edited by Alex Wice; 06-16-2015 at 09:12 AM.
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Old 06-16-2015, 09:06 AM   #905
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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I am told they did it, I have no reason to disbelieve them, .....
I'm the Prince of Brunei and lost my credit-card, so please send me 100.000$ with Western Union. I will return the money within a week with interest. You have no reason to disbelieve me as i told you i'm the Prince of Brunei.
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Old 06-16-2015, 09:11 AM   #906
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Well , from someone who plays for over 6 years now i think most of the people dont win
because they use program A or B they win because they have a better strat+ discipline

I know many players who use software mentioned and still lose and others who get by with a HUD only and win consistently

Dont forget this even if Software x is not allowed that doesnt mean a player cant use the software OFF GAME and make a series of notes how to play against that player in game

in practice the player only has more work the result is the same

I cannot speak of the list except for Notecaddy wich is the only 1 i use , if the HUD as bet by street i dont get why would there be a problem with the same feature in NC

Many professional players are leaving poker so its not like softw progs are doing miracles
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Old 06-16-2015, 09:12 AM   #907
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

As far as I can see, the problem with 3rd party providers identifying imported hands that had been played by another player then shared rather than just played by the same player on a different machine would be that one could just open the text file and do find/replace on the other player's name and put your own name in. The only way to stop it would be if Pokerstars offered an API that allowed the software to confirm a hand number+user screen name combination was ok. Or simply - not to include opponent screennames in the hand history at all. When we post hands in the strategy subforum we usually anonymise them anyway. To stop people screen-scraping allow monthly screename changes - I know that is a technical job because the username is the primary key but in anycase it is a security hole that half of someone's login+password is openly displayed at the table - so you need to implement a separate display screenname for that reason too.

@Richas - did they ever respond to your submission?
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Old 06-16-2015, 09:16 AM   #908
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richas View Post
I am told they did it, I have no reason to disbelieve them, what makes you so adamant that the claim is false - how do you know I'm being lied to?

I certainly know what it is like to lose a necklace or two in the muck.
I know it's a lie because I've had NoteCaddy since day 1, and I follow progress of NoteCaddy and all poker software constantly. I also know the developer of NoteCaddy and am sure he's not pro datamining.

I think what you're referring to might be this software Auto Color (which is not NoteCaddy and is not affiliated with it in anyway) https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...6&postcount=14.

So you and whoever else told you this (if someone in fact did tell you) can stop repeating lies, unless you can back them up with more than "I'm told he did it".

It's not even really on topic anyways. You're just trying to come up with anything you can to trash on NoteCaddy. The main point of the discussion is to help Stars come up with a clear line which should be drawn regarding which software we can use at the tables.
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Old 06-16-2015, 09:25 AM   #909
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Richas View Post

Alan Jackson and co have some pretty esoteric add ons for high skill high stakes players that target players that are pretty strong overall, others supply the customisation that is especially powerful vs recs and microstakes players.
I play 25nl and use the Alan Jackson package. You continue to ramble on making claim after claim about matters you don't seem to have sufficient knowledge about.
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Old 06-16-2015, 09:27 AM   #910
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by FR-Nit View Post
I'm the Prince of Brunei and lost my credit-card, so please send me 100.000$ with Western Union. I will return the money within a week with interest. You have no reason to disbelieve me as i told you i'm the Prince of Brunei.
Trans: You have no answer as to why you are so adamant that there was no datamining link from NoteCaddy at launch, indeed my dear prince that happened before you joined the forum.

Currently my ready cash is tied up in a sure fire investment opportunity in Nigeria and so unfortunately I am unable to help you on this occassion.
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Old 06-16-2015, 09:27 AM   #911
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Alex Wice View Post
I think unenforceable policies are always going to be bad for the game, all it does is favor rule breakers ahead of honest players.
I disagree. Enforcement should not be the winning argument. If breaking the rules requires developing bespoke screen-scraping software which cannot be shown/shared to others and risking 2 year prison sentences then it is likely to be restricted to only a few players polluting the highest buy-in level of the games (which are going to have to move live whatever happens). Lower down, if one player in a 45 man has a super HUD and 1000 charts telling him what to do then of course he has an unfair advantage but it doesn't affect any one of the other 44 players that much. If 20 out of the 45 have that stuff legally then the games will die.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Wice View Post
The proposed changes would ban for example a piece of paper with a preflop push fold chart.
I think the random examples at the end of the new rule (e.g. dynamic, stack size dependent) should be taken out and replaced by actual definitions of what goes beyond a basic level means. I would go with a max of 5 HUD stats, the same ones for each player and a max of something like 2000-10000 char of charts. The examples just confuse things and appear to allow complex charts with specific actions for all 16000 Omaha hands but not a Hold'em power numbers chart.
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Old 06-16-2015, 09:31 AM   #912
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

do you think your propaganda is worth anything here nostrakhan ? you make your livelyhood through notecaddy, obv you have just your own interest in mind
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Old 06-16-2015, 09:33 AM   #913
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richas View Post
Trans: You have no answer as to why you are so adamant that there was no datamining link from NoteCaddy at launch, indeed my dear prince that happened before you joined the forum.
You are a bit slow, aren't you?! I know that there wasn't a link for datamining, you claimed there was. Proof or stop spreading lies.

You know what's the difference between your arguements and a bucket of poo? The bucket.
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Old 06-16-2015, 09:34 AM   #914
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by piet_evil View Post
do you think your propaganda is worth anything here nostrakhan ? you make your livelyhood through notecaddy, obv you have just your own interest in mind
My propoganda? I've only stated facts here. Too many people have no idea what some of this software even does and they're led to believe they do different things than they actually do. I'm just trying to stop some of these lies.
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Old 06-16-2015, 09:38 AM   #915
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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do you think your propaganda is worth anything here nostrakhan ? you make your livelyhood through notecaddy, obv you have just your own interest in mind
Not sure I like this.

s/w developers have a perfectly legitimate interest in this debate, as do regs, as do recs.

The ideal is to find a new balance which lets everyone in the legitimate ecosystem (not botters/datacheaters, that are already banned) have their voice/interest considered.
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Old 06-16-2015, 09:46 AM   #916
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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You are a bit slow, aren't you?! I know that there wasn't a link for datamining, you claimed there was. Proof or stop spreading lies.

You know what's the difference between your arguements and a bucket of poo? The bucket.
How do you "know"?

I am not spreading lies - I am saying that there is an allegation that NoteCaddy launched with links to dataming.

Meanwhile it is patently obvious that HEM and NC et al are the tools that data cheats NEED to do their cheating and it is equally obvious that HEM NC et al take no measures whatsoever to make their life harder. Import a load of hands without your hole card, with a different hero name, from a data miner...ohh look here is the button that let's you run the software to add notes to all those new opponents, to consolidte all the stats on the same player as your existing database, that is core functionality built in to the software....now let me think, who might use that functionality? Who might do it daily or weekly or monthly?

Anyway my dear Prince, ponder that pooh.
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Old 06-16-2015, 10:00 AM   #917
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Richas View Post
Clearly not, I am told that when NoteCaddy was first marketed it came with links to data mining sites and discounts,....


Quote:
Originally Posted by Richas View Post
How do you "know"?

I am not spreading lies - I am saying that there is an allegation that NoteCaddy launched with links to dataming.
Well, well, now there's an allegation. Naturally that you instantly accept this "allegation" as truth which doesn't require proof. Proof it or admit that you are just a schemer and opportunistic liar.
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Old 06-16-2015, 10:01 AM   #918
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Thinking about buying NC, can anyone give cliffs/tell me how things are looking for the rule changes and if its worth getting at this stage?
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Old 06-16-2015, 10:26 AM   #919
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Thinking about buying NC, can anyone give cliffs/tell me how things are looking for the rule changes and if its worth getting at this stage?
Pokerstars Steve hasn't said anything else besides the first post in this thread. He said "• NoteCaddy as is would require changes. It is permissible for HUDs to filter / drill down via street, but not by action facing or hole card / communicate card values."

We're not sure what that means. As far as I know NoteCaddy complies with this already. Being able to create definitions/stats in NoteCaddy will still be possible no matter what I think. But we'll have to see what Pokerstars decides to be sure of the full functionalities which it will allow.
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Old 06-16-2015, 10:26 AM   #920
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

AGREE, but keep Stove and Oracle.
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Old 06-16-2015, 10:31 AM   #921
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Well, well, now there's an allegation. Naturally that you instantly accept this "allegation" as truth which doesn't require proof. Proof it or admit that you are just a schemer and opportunistic liar.
Oh I am a lot worse than a schemer or an opportunistic liar I am someone who can assess claims based on surrounding evidence, personal experience and by applying a bit of understanding of target markets and business models. I also remember the way poker has developed in the past decade.

I remember the ZeeJustin row. I remember the way that regs defended multi accounting as "standard", the way they argued that as multiple entries to the Sunday Million were +ev you would be mad not to enter more than once.

Do you remember how he was caught? Deep in the tounie he was in the chat explaining that he was playing under a different ID and that his famous account was ZeeJustin. Meanwhile some bright spark checked the entries and found ZeeJustin listed. That is how open and blatant it was.

Remember the Void - lost his $1.2m WCOOP main event win as it was under his sister's account not his own (naturally his normal account also entered)...he had the chutzpah to get his sister to sue Stars in the IoM courts for the money where they proved it was not her playing and (s)he had to pay their costs. That is how open and blatant it was.

Datamining was like that too. It got defended as "standard" - so normal that when data cheats ganged up on Isildur they explained how to the poker media.

We had respected pros explaining how they had set up a stable of grinders in one room where they acted as supervisor/overseer to help them in any tough spots and take over any deep runs.

Back in the day data mining did not have the dirty rep it has now, loads of affiliates had links and discount codes for buying hand histories. It was "standard". Do you seriously think I would decide, oh no. not those nice NoteCaddy guys who had not yet got any real income from their software development, they would never set up as an affiliate and sell their software via affiiate deals and at the same time make sure their customers can hit the ground running on thei new site with a nice big data bank to use their new tool?

Frankly I would be astounded if at the time they were not selling software, acting as an affiliate for both poker sites and data miners...strewth they had bills to pay and that was "standard". It was unremarkable in the extreme, a complete no brainer. The likelihood that they did not at that time is not quite zero but it is pretty damn close, if they weren't they were leaving money on the table.

So yeah sure Prince, I'll take your word that you know it never happened, even though it has the ring of truth and is entirely in line with the poker culture at that time.
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Old 06-16-2015, 10:44 AM   #922
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Wice View Post
I think a fair policy is that dynamic/adaptive information should be against the rules whereas static information is okay. So for example if you have an excel spreadsheet of strategies or a paper copy print out (that you yourself reference or search which part of the spreadsheet is relevant to your hand), then you can use that; but you cannot have a computer reference your hand to provide stats specific to the hand in question. (Eg. you are on the button or 10bb so bring up the button chart or the 10bb chart.) That would also rule out some forms of HUD use.
as i mentioned in my blog post

these too are 'static', but more importantly, you are pretty much describing skier's program, which is impossible to enforce
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Old 06-16-2015, 10:46 AM   #923
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Alex Wice View Post
Got to chime in here because I think everyone is getting it wrong and the conversation has steered considerably.

I think unenforceable policies are always going to be bad for the game, all it does is favor rule breakers ahead of honest players. The proposed changes would ban for example a piece of paper with a preflop push fold chart. It should be obvious to everyone that if that kind of policy were in effect, it would be overreaching -- how can Stars police what kind of paper you have in front of your computer monitor? More importantly, it won't actually change anything. People will still print out the chart or use a second computer or whatever anyways.

I think Pokerstars was caught in a hard spot. While skier's program didn't officially break any rules, it put bad PR on the situation; and because of privacy they couldn't really directly out what skier's program did or did not do, so it made it hard to communicate the facts and made people feel they were unfairly being taken advantage of.

I think a fair policy is that dynamic/adaptive information should be against the rules whereas static information is okay. So for example if you have an excel spreadsheet of strategies or a paper copy print out (that you yourself reference or search which part of the spreadsheet is relevant to your hand), then you can use that; but you cannot have a computer reference your hand to provide stats specific to the hand in question. (Eg. you are on the button or 10bb so bring up the button chart or the 10bb chart.) That would also rule out some forms of HUD use.

Fwiw I also think a random number generator that spits out a random integer from 1-100 every 5 seconds should be allowed. It falls under "static" in the sense that no information that was about a specific hand was used as input to change what was outputted. Similarly, Pokerstove should be allowed.

In my opinion this is the only sane policy. A policy that is unenforceable or unrealistic will only create disdain of the rules and push otherwise legitimate players into being more willing to break other rules.

Well explained consequences of Stars overreaching and trying to enforce bans beyond their means. Someone at Stars needs to start thinking on changes at a greater scale if the games at risk (through skier type programs) are to be saved. I personally wouldn't know how :/
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Old 06-16-2015, 10:46 AM   #924
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Here´s my 2cc on the topic...

I think we´re mixing several things here, feel like HUDs are the least important issue on this matter and it has take the most discussion time on this thread, i think other 3rd party programs used while playing has to take a lot more discussion time than whether or not HUDs are bad/unfair for the game, programs like NoteCaddy, Seating Scripts, dynamic HUDs, Heat Maps, real time equity calculations, etc.


Quote:
Banning HUDs will allow poker strengths to prevail more than players ability to dissect a HUD to prevail. Players who aren't familiar or computer savvy enough to maximize their HUD are at a distinct disadvantage before the cards are even dealt.

Personally i do believe HUDs are an unfair advantages for those who are able to extract the most value out of it vs someone that even having one cant read beyond a VPIP/PFR/3bet stat HUD but i also believe those that do extract the most out of a HUD will still be able to exploit those who even using a HUD dont know how to get as much value out of it, winning poker players will ALWAYS be winners regardless of the use of a HUD or not vs those who just cant keep themselves ahead of the curve. But again, is it also unfair that whenver im off the tables working on my game the fact that i use CardrunnersEV, Flopzilla, ICMIzer, ProPokerTools, Universal Replayer, Equilab and/or every single piece of hand analysis software out there to study in depth every hand and post notes on villains it wrong/cheating (Cuz on PokerStars you can write notes even when your NOT seating at the tables)?

According to a study made by Microgaming on which they compare regulare cash game tables (Where HUDs are allowed) vs Anonymous table (Where the use of a HUD its unpractical and stupid) and after 175 million hands they came up with these conclusions...
(Source: http://www.thempn.eu/blog/world-without-huds/)

1. In games with HUDs, there is less action. Players bet less, and when they do bet, the bets are smaller. Pots are smaller as a result.
2. In games with HUDs, players multi-table more.
3. In games with HUDs, winners win less, because pots are smaller.
4. In games with HUDs, losers lose less, also because pots are smaller.
5. In games with HUDs, winners pay more rake per Euro they win (but less per hand, because pots are smaller).
6. In games with HUDs, variance is lower, and poor players are more consistent losers as a result.

Quote:
"...the data suggests that HUDs make the game tighter, less fun, and make everybody win and lose more slowly..."
For me personally i believe banning HUDs are bad for the poker ecosystem, bad players would play less tables, traffic will suffer big time, there would be a hell lot less money moving across the tables, PokerStars would be forced to lower the benefits on their VIP program, etc., in general recreationals and fishes alike dont care about others using HUDs, they will still get exploited either way by the good/winning players, if anything (as the Microgamign study suggested) winning players will win less on average because pots are smaller on average.

Cliffnotes..

* HUDs are OK & BOTs are NOT
* NoteCaddy, Seating Scripts, dynamic HUDs, Heat Maps, real time equity calculations, etc. are DEF NOT OK

Last edited by onlinepokerwiz; 06-16-2015 at 10:54 AM.
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Old 06-16-2015, 11:00 AM   #925
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Oh I am a lot worse than a schemer or an opportunistic liar I am someone who can assess claims based on surrounding evidence, personal experience and by applying a bit of understanding of target markets and business models.
You are highly sophomoric. Don't wanna destroy your fool's paradise, but theories assembled in your woozy head don't account as proof. I asked you to backup your claim (screenshots are welcome). If you can't provide this, you have to withdraw your statement as it's blatant libel.
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