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Old 06-16-2015, 06:39 AM   #876
KDash
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by kep View Post
The idea that huds and NoteCaddy doesn't have an effect on the winrates of fish is ridiculous. Their stack is likely to get picked off even faster when Notecaddy picks up a tendency before you can notice it while you are playing too many tables or playing zoom. If that Notecaddy user bought hand histories, the fish may lose his stack the very first hand he plays because his tendencies are already known. Sure that fish is likely to punt his stack eventually most times he plays but now when his bluff gets picked off the very first orbit every time he plays, he is going to quit forever sooner than later. gg poker

There are/were also many recs that are/were slowly losing money but now with notecaddy maybe they are losing twice as fast. It won't be long until they all quit too. gg poker
So you are blamming NC for the datamining. It's pretty much the same as saying :
Drug dealers use speedboats to carry their drugs, so let's ban the speedboats and do nothing against the drug dealers.

Brillant logic.
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Old 06-16-2015, 06:42 AM   #877
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I laughed my ass off
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Old 06-16-2015, 06:43 AM   #878
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

but ..but ..the very purpose of NC is to data mine.
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Old 06-16-2015, 06:48 AM   #879
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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but ..but ..the very purpose of NC is to data mine.
How can you lie so much without feeling any shame ?

The purpose of NC is to help you to make decisions in unusual spots versus players on who you have a big sample.

The fact that some users are using it with datamining, doesn't mean NC was designed for that, and doesn't mean that NC has to be blammed for that. This only means that something has to be done against datamining, not against notecaddy. And skier already made a post about that and about modidying the way hand histories are presented to the players.
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Old 06-16-2015, 06:49 AM   #880
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Of course, don't argue since this thread made it clear taht the anti-HUD/anti-NC activist don't have any argument besides saying that this is going to be good for poker without explaining why.
This speaks volume about your ability to read thoroughly well articulated posts that don't support your opinion. Let me guess - you either skip them completely if you realize they're against your stand or you read them diagonally and hit the quick reply button, right?

Hopefully the PS staff that's gonna gather all opinions expressed in this tread (pro, anti and in-between) are more astute and less biased then you are. Shouldn't be too hard, to be honest, if that's the only stand from "anti-HUD", "anti-NC" (or specifically "anti-NC badges") posters that you picked up from 900 posts so far.
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Old 06-16-2015, 06:56 AM   #881
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes



can we get sreti back in this? i like it so much when he goes on thread tilt and starts spilling the beans.
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Old 06-16-2015, 06:59 AM   #882
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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the problem with this again though is all the commerically available stuff get banned whilst some russian wizard will have acess to all manner of software which is far more useful
Lol yeah, this.

If you ban stuff like notecaddy you are just putting all the power back into the hands of the elite coders/hackers. As if people won't find away around this. At least if everyone has access to this stuff the playing field is level.

I like poker the way it is.
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Old 06-16-2015, 07:11 AM   #883
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I mean....pokerstove? It's a joke right? Ban pokerstove to make the games fair again? Did I read that?

And I'm sure it won't occur to any of these high stakes pros to use pokerstove on a separate machine to secretly crush high stakes online games.

That's enough posting now, I need to sit here and facepalm for a bit.
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Old 06-16-2015, 07:14 AM   #884
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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This is an extract from my submission to a UKGC consultation back in Sept 2013.
Thanks - first I've seen this but will read.

Not sure I entirely agree that your breakdown of the situation does in fact mean they were in cahoots but regardless its irrelevant to thread so I'll shut-up.

I also do not think its ethical correct to blanket refer to the usage of a HUD as "cheating".

Quote:
Originally Posted by w34z3l View Post
If you ban stuff like notecaddy you are just putting all the power back into the hands of the elite coders/hackers. As if people won't find away around this. At least if everyone has access to this stuff the playing field is level.
You actually make them much more powerful, whilst putting law abiding grinders at a further handicap.
Quote:
Originally Posted by greg nice View Post
my full thoughts:

http://www.stackandtile.com/sat/blog...poker-software
Quote:

Its probably a waste of time to read both this and the original topic, because 90% of the posters/players either do not fully understand the scope of the issue, or they are just idiots with their own agendas.
I liked most of what you posted to be honest, very rationale approach.

Although the bold part could also be seen as self preserving. Just my opinion, not a personal attack.
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Old 06-16-2015, 07:22 AM   #885
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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but ..but ..the very purpose of NC is to data mine.
I think you're being disingenuous here. We know that data-mining refers to hand histories from games you haven't played. The purpose of NC and HEM and PT etc is to use data from hands you've played.

I'd be very much in favour of something being put in place to stop any software package using data mined hand histories. I'd assume this is something the programmers of the packages concerned could do.
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Old 06-16-2015, 07:29 AM   #886
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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I think you're being disingenuous here. We know that data-mining refers to hand histories from games you haven't played. The purpose of NC and HEM and PT etc is to use data from hands you've played.

I'd be very much in favour of something being put in place to stop any software package using data mined hand histories. I'd assume this is something the programmers of the packages concerned could do.
Answering or reading a post of mme is a pure waste of time. He has a long history of making libelous suppositions without having ever been able to back them up.

Preventing the use of datamined hands should - i'm a complete layman - be quite easy as hands which you have played contain at the beginning of the handhistory your hole-cards. Datamined hands can't contain that information. Preventing the import of hands without that information shouldn't be hard to achieve.
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Old 06-16-2015, 07:32 AM   #887
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Husker View Post
I'd be very much in favour of something being put in place to stop any software package using data mined hand histories. I'd assume this is something the programmers of the packages concerned could do if they wanted to drastically reduce their client base.
FYP
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Old 06-16-2015, 07:32 AM   #888
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

apply the new rules
reading the list of s/w you can see where poker is going, in 2015 to play poker you need to add a 300 to 500$ start up buying s/w and you still behind many others.

More the game gets automated and more new players will choose slots or sport betting as sometimes they may be able to win with luck while on poker after 2 orbits a reg and his group "work" friends will know how to beat you thanks to info that an average player don't have.

All this started because a cartel complained for losing their advantage on their game, and many, who are against the changes today, will cry when new tools will come out to push them out or will start crying because PS don't invest any money in poker but prefers to invest them in sport or casino games, where better profits can be done.

S/ws are not the only reason, but part of the problem. There will be not a new boom but it is a about keeping the game fair and alive as long as possible.
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Old 06-16-2015, 07:35 AM   #889
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by FR-Nit View Post
Answering or reading a post of mme is a pure waste of time. He has a long history of making libelous suppositions without having ever been able to back them up.

Preventing the use of datamined hands should - i'm a complete layman - be quite easy as hands which you have played contain at the beginning of the handhistory your hole-cards. Datamined hands can't contain that information. Preventing the import of hands without that information shouldn't be hard to achieve.
Lots of ways to make importing illegal data harder. Now, here is a question, why do all the packages make so damn sure that it is easy?
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Old 06-16-2015, 07:38 AM   #890
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Ask HM and PT, not me
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Old 06-16-2015, 07:43 AM   #891
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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FYP
Are you seriously suggesting people wouldn't buy HEM/PT and would play without a hud purely because they couldn't data-mine?
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Old 06-16-2015, 07:58 AM   #892
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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For complete clarity, this does not mean that we will aim exclusively to make the decision that we think will be most popular in this forum. We are far more likely to be swayed by quality reasoning than by number of players sharing an opinion. If you wish to impact the decision, I encourage you to share not only your preferred outcome but also your reasoning.

If changes end up being made, there is likely to be a grace period for existing programs to be modified in order to comply with the new rules.
Hopefully they are swayed by the many quality points and reasoning from many posters in this thread; skier, raidalot, artymcfly, richas, greg nice, and many others.

It's especially refreshing to see someone such as skier who was chastised for his own superior 3rd party software standing up to the plate on these issues and presenting fair and reasonable data to go along with possible solutions to lessen the problem that this software is causing to the poker ecosystem.

It seems to me what is needed now is a public voice for these changes. A lot of the posters arguing in this thread for serious change are decorated and well known to the online "twoplustwo" poker world but don't have as much of a voice to the general public or masses. PokerStars has historically made small changes and has always been rather hesitant to make any significant changes; especially ones that might negatively effect their atleast short term bottom line.

In my opinion to have any shot at any real significant change to the current terms and conditions on 3rd party software on PokerStars it's going to take a lot more than "quality reasoning" from people in this thread but a significant voice behind it. One that reaches the masses and pressures PokerStars into making change.
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Old 06-16-2015, 08:03 AM   #893
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Husker View Post
Are you seriously suggesting people wouldn't buy HEM/PT and would play without a hud purely because they couldn't data-mine?
The dataminers choose the package that makes their life easier.

As for some of the NoteCaddy add ons and NoteCaddy my working assumption is that at the micro stakes where there are so many more players they only really become effective combined with data mining/sharing. Hence why NoteCaddy works fine on imported illegal data.
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Old 06-16-2015, 08:11 AM   #894
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Richas View Post
The dataminers choose the package that makes their life easier.

As for some of the NoteCaddy add ons and NoteCaddy my working assumption is that at the micro stakes where there are so many more players they only really become effective combined with data mining/sharing. Hence why NoteCaddy works fine on imported illegal data.
Of all the things regarding potentially illegal actions & software, checking if the DB you use while playing has datamined hands has got to be the easiest one to do, technically. By a long shot. Either on HM/PT end or on PS's end.
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Old 06-16-2015, 08:13 AM   #895
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Richas View Post
The dataminers choose the package that makes their life easier.

As for some of the NoteCaddy add ons and NoteCaddy my working assumption is that at the micro stakes where there are so many more players they only really become effective combined with data mining/sharing. Hence why NoteCaddy works fine on imported illegal data.
NoteCaddy uses data imported into Hm2. If HM would prevent the import of datamined hands the problem would be solved.

Also interesting how you manage to not mention HM a single time while NoteCaddy 3 times despite HM being the cause of the problem.
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Old 06-16-2015, 08:19 AM   #896
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

You want to help recreational players facing all the software used to play poker?

Simple: just allow all the players to change their nick name at least once a day!

Than we would have a fair game to all!
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Old 06-16-2015, 08:21 AM   #897
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Richas View Post
Be fair, I am told that it was only when they first launched that they offered up discount codes for people wanting to buy hands by the million, they have got better at plausible deniability since then.
What you were told is a blatant lie
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Old 06-16-2015, 08:34 AM   #898
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Richas View Post
The dataminers choose the package that makes their life easier.

As for some of the NoteCaddy add ons and NoteCaddy my working assumption is that at the micro stakes where there are so many more players they only really become effective combined with data mining/sharing. Hence why NoteCaddy works fine on imported illegal data.
You never answered my question, are you seriously suggesting people wouldn't buy HEM/PT and would play without a hud purely because they couldn't data-mine?

And as someone who plays micro-stakes I can tell you that your assumption is, yet again, wrong.
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Old 06-16-2015, 08:37 AM   #899
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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What you were told is a blatant lie
Clearly not, I am told that when NoteCaddy was first marketed it came with links to data mining sites and discounts, indeed it is earlier in this thread. It is also obvious that tracking software and various HUD add ons are essential tools for data cheats.

You want to know something funnier? Datamining sites - banned sites like PTR have a long history of acting as affiliates for sites that they datamine illegally.

They sell the cheater the data for their new site, give em a sign up bonus or whatever for signing up via themand then they get paid for the cheating by the cheater and via the site that outlaws their services!

Now Stars et al have messed about some of their affiliates recently but if they were serious about data mining cheats rather than sending the odd one they think is doing it a nice note saying plaese stop they could try checking out the players signed up via cheat site affiliates and stop paying the cheat sites affiliate fees.
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Old 06-16-2015, 08:47 AM   #900
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Richas View Post
Clearly not, I am told that when NoteCaddy was first marketed it came with links to data mining sites and discounts, indeed it is earlier in this thread. It is also obvious that tracking software and various HUD add ons are essential tools for data cheats.

You want to know something funnier? Datamining sites - banned sites like PTR have a long history of acting as affiliates for sites that they datamine illegally.

They sell the cheater the data for their new site, give em a sign up bonus or whatever for signing up via themand then they get paid for the cheating by the cheater and via the site that outlaws their services!

Now Stars et al have messed about some of their affiliates recently but if they were serious about data mining cheats rather than sending the odd one they think is doing it a nice note saying plaese stop they could try checking out the players signed up via cheat site affiliates and stop paying the cheat sites affiliate fees.
Who is telling you this? It's clearly not right to say something which is not true, whether you're making it up, or someone is telling you it. NoteCaddy has never been pro datamining or affiliated for it.
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