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Old 06-16-2015, 02:35 AM   #851
LektorAJ
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
Was trying to imagine what changing Note Caddy might mean in terms of win-rates ...

Current Situation - Approx. Winrates for Zoom
Average Regular Winrate: 2bb/100
Average Recreational Winrate: -5bb/100
PokerStars Rake: 6bb/100

(maybe more like 1bb/100, -10bb/100, and 8bb/100?)

If Certain Software is Banned (eg. Parts of NoteCaddy) - Possible Scenarios, with Possible Approximate Winrates for Zoom
  1. Possible Scenario 1 - No Change
    Average Regular Winrate: 2bb/100
    Average Recreational Winrate: -5bb/100
    PokerStars Rake: 6bb/100
  2. Possible Scenario 2 - Small Change
    Average Regular Winrate: 1bb/100
    Average Recreational Winrate: -4.5bb/100 (zero sum game, twice as many losing players)
    PokerStars Rake: 6bb/100
  3. Possible Scenario 3 - Big Change ... possibly no more winning players?
    Average Regular Winrate: 0bb/100
    Average Recreational Winrate: -4bb/100
    PokerStars Rake: 6bb/100
  4. Possible Scenario 4 - Really Big Change
    Average Regular Winrate: -10bb/100
    Average Recreational Winrate: 1bb/100
    PokerStars Rake: 6bb/100

Maybe someone tinkering around with numbers could find a way that more people wind up winning if there's a big change to the system ... but it seems like maybe banning software might at this point be too little too late? Unless it's coupled with rake cuts maybe?
The point not reflected in the above is that if recreational players go bust slower they play more hands from the same deposit - and crucially have a better time doing so and are more likely to redeposit.
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Old 06-16-2015, 03:06 AM   #852
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I support the proposed changes
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Old 06-16-2015, 03:24 AM   #853
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by forfun View Post
Himself use and understand that a person who does not know English is almost impossible to use it fully.
The creator of positioning it as programa with infinite possibilities.
If you play against the man who bought it or set up the settings on the course to be in the red.
Man is not a poker skill, and thanks to detailed analysis NoteCaddy, you beat.
With NoteKaddi is not poker, where you clatter says program.

and badges that pop up and shout Take the money from him.
This actually makes sense to me if I translate it literally word for word into Slovak and then properly back to English (I assume the original language is another Slavic one, possibly Russian or Ukrainian because of the is/has thing). It means:

I use it myself and understand that for a person who does not speak English it is almost impossible to make full use of it.
The creator markets it as a program with infinite possibilities. If you play against someone who has bought it and set up the setting you will definitely lose money.
Someone doesn't have poker skill and thanks to the detailed analysis of NoteCaddy, they win.
With NoteCaddy it's not poker. You clatter (put chips???) where the program and badges that pop up and shout "Take the money from him" say.


Most of that has already been said ITT, but the bolded is a new point I think - that the PS client offers a level playing field by supporting the languages of many different players but third party tools don't necessarily do that.
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Old 06-16-2015, 03:34 AM   #854
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by The Imp View Post
I think Stars have to start taking a hard line on software aids. I've always loved poker software but we've really reached a breaking point here. I don't really have a strong viewpoint on where to draw the line, just draw it somewhere. At least start by banning anything that explicitly says "if x, based on player y's tendencies do z and profit". That covers a whole range of notecaddy addons and related products. Ban seating scripts. The only reason Stars have come up with for not banning seating scripts is that it'll take manual manpower to enforce that they're not willing to expend. That's not an acceptable solution in my opinion, and most likely in anyones opinion that isn't paying for a script. It's the same excuse they have for not enforcing their own rules on grimming/buttoning. It's understandable that Stars don't want to increase their game security team by a multiple to cope with increasing demand but it's simply not realistic. That's the way the game is going, adapt or accept it.

tl:dr: get a longer attention span you silly generation. In my day... grumble grumble grumble
Absolutely 100% agree with your whole post.

I really cannot logically understand how people can defend the badge system by saying it's "fair" and doesn't really tell them anything different than a regular hud. I can understand them defending it emotionally, but not logically. If you can't understand that it's one thing to look at 5-10 different numbers spread across your hud and decide it's a good spot to stab turn+river (or w/e) and it's a totally different thing to have one shiny square popping up each time you sit at a table with such a villain, you really have a big fault in your logic.
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Old 06-16-2015, 03:42 AM   #855
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by LektorAJ View Post

Most of that has already been said ITT, but the bolded is a new point I think - that the PS client offers a level playing field by supporting the languages of many different players but third party tools don't necessarily do that.
Epic! I guess the fact that almost every educational material covering Poker is only available in English makes that also unfair, right?

From all bad arguements this one is by far the worst.

Last edited by FR-Nit; 06-16-2015 at 03:45 AM. Reason: can't wait for the first RIO-video in Swahili <3
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Old 06-16-2015, 04:00 AM   #856
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Mecastyles View Post
There are several. Think formula one enginges. However if ferrari started to build wings into them people would complain.

Sames goes for bikes in cycling. Put in an extra wheel for balance, anddd you go to far

Soccer boots actually have different traits too, make them from steel and ur cheating

Ice staking suits, aerodynaic sure, put in a parachute u can uncover whenever theres wind and u go to far.

There are many instances in sport, in fact almost every sport where there is an imbalance between players and there is always a line you cant go over. This is arbitruary everywhere, so to tell pokerstars its an ban all or ban nothing situation is ridiculous.
It's interesting you mention Formula 1. That is a technology contest as much as a driving contest.

Soccer boots, ice skates etc are not in the same class as HUDs. Some sports require physical equipment to be able to play and the authorities set tight boundaries on the specification for that equipment to ensure a fair competition of skill. If they did not people would regard the sport as unfair, there would be little respect for the winners ... and amateurs would likely lose interest over time.

Last edited by raidalot; 06-16-2015 at 04:05 AM.
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Old 06-16-2015, 04:06 AM   #857
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by LektorAJ View Post
It's true (I played GM Bronstein like that and didn't win) but that isn't how a typical chess tournament works.

Earlier on it was mentioned that coaches can shout instructions to their players in football. In tennis, which is an individual sport like poker and more analogous, coaches are not allowed to instruct players mid-match.
Meanwhile we know that tennis players use toilet and treatment breaks to get coaching advice, chess players get banned for going to the loo and using their phone to access chess computers and betting groups have courtsiders* logging points live to get ahead of the data/tv feed and let people place bets knowing the result of the last point before eveyone else.

Cheaters gonna cheat. Rules to try and keep a level playing field are absolutely routine, so is cheating those rules, so is them getting caught and so sadly is those cheaters escaping real justice/punishment by not gettng caught and not getting punished properly. Today athletes today line up against twice convicted drugs cheats live on TV and it makes the real athletes want to puke and undermines their whole sport.

Does not mean having/enforcing rules is pointless, it just means that having rules that some break is frustrating.


*Unbelievably the courtsiding betting cartels defend what they do as all in the game, their claim is that there is skill in using their algorithms to lead te betting market. Spit.
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Old 06-16-2015, 04:20 AM   #858
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

atm new online poker players are being conned. Think of the guy who has played with friends/family on the kitchen table and watched a bit of poker on TV and now wants to play online. He reasonably assumes he is playing on the same terms as everyone else. He knows some of his opponents read books etc and most are more experienced than him. But when he signs up, nothing in the advertising etc tells him that some of his opponents are using tools which provide a significant advantage (and no, we can't assume he reads the fine print of the T&C). Nothing tells him that his opponents can see more information on their screen than he can on his. He has been sold one experience but, in practice, he receives another.

If HUDs are allowed then, as part of the sign-up process, all new players should be clearly warned about their use by others and informed of the option to buy and use one themselves.
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Old 06-16-2015, 04:47 AM   #859
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Richas View Post
Well they chose one HUD developer over another to have a HUD available for the launch of Zoom....

... but HUD bevelopers have said in this forum that some sites pay them to support their site and it is beyond doubt that Stars work with HUD suppliers to keep the s/w working well.
Can you provide a couple of links/threads to this? Pm if you prefer. Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by raidalot View Post
atm new online poker players are being conned.
In a nutshell of threads of late, yes.

~900 posts later in thread - everyone has discussed all sorts of madness? Is anyone actually doing anything? Including PokerStars, No.

Discussing this achieves nothing without any executing of changes RE online poker landscape.
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Old 06-16-2015, 04:49 AM   #860
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Richas View Post
Does not mean having/enforcing rules is pointless, it just means that having rules that some break is frustrating.
in the end you can not really punish cheaters adequately. its still a sport or a game. slow roll gets villain jail time is not a thing i want to see in a game. lance doing X years neither. there is discussion in germany right now on the proposed new anti-doping law that can get you prison time. still doctors weaseled their way out of it already ..they can not be held accountable.

realistically i'd think enforce as much a ban as possible. you'll hit the wall of privacy concerns / not overstepping your reach / inadequate punishment anyways.

what helps is transparency. share what you know, make the whole process open, resist the temptation to apply damage control.
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Old 06-16-2015, 04:50 AM   #861
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by TopPair2Pair View Post
~900 posts later in thread - everyone has discussed all sorts of madness? Is anyone actually doing anything? Including PokerStars, No.

Discussing this achieves nothing without any executing of changes RE online poker landscape.
OP says there's a period of 10 days for everyone to voice their opinion, after which PS will decide which road will take. The thread started on the 11th, so there's a few more days to go until we can expect any kind of decision.
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Old 06-16-2015, 04:55 AM   #862
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by devera View Post
OP says there's a period of 10 days for everyone to voice their opinion, after which PS will decide which road will take. The thread started on the 11th, so there's a few more days to go until we can expect any kind of decision.
With what, 1 post so far?,

If they were actively engaging with the community in this thread - yes there would be a lot of noise - however the thread would be 9,000 posts long and instead of getting skewed views from 2-5% of the playerbase... they would get a much more bespoke requirement on what they need to do. Thread/approach is a shambles. Do you really think they are capturing the good stuff from this thread? How much of the actual player pool, posts on poker threads? Of that how much posts on 2p2? Of that how many people post in NVG.

Why not transparently, openly list (real time) in here the direction they want to head in and get serious views back.

Last edited by TopPair2Pair; 06-16-2015 at 05:01 AM.
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Old 06-16-2015, 05:08 AM   #863
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I guess it was mentioned before many times, but it should be mentioned again.

What about seating scripts? I believe they are bigger issue than i.e. Notecaddy. On higher limits, you can't seat with fish without these scripts, and that is fair because it is not affecting recreational players only regs? Don't think so...
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Old 06-16-2015, 05:15 AM   #864
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

id rather see more efforts put into fighting ghosting, collusion, etc than banning any publicly available software

how is that possible, that you play day 1 scoop against mediocre weak-reg, and the next day he owns the game
all these 7$ avbi players running over the table, makin very sophisticated moves once they reach deep phase in major tournaments, playin for hundred of thousands while not givin a single **** and happily spammin on the chat that they have too big advantage to deal - mixed with advertising the stable they play for

how about scoop/wcoop grind-houses where the good players wait until one of the horses makes a deeprun to get into the game from that point

this is wrong and should be strictly fighted

and about the software - as long as im able to buy a software myself and use it to get an advantage
im ok with its existence, even tho i dont use NC/scripting for example
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Old 06-16-2015, 05:23 AM   #865
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by raidalot View Post
atm new online poker players are being conned. Think of the guy who has played with friends/family on the kitchen table and watched a bit of poker on TV and now wants to play online. He reasonably assumes he is playing on the same terms as everyone else. He knows some of his opponents read books etc and most are more experienced than him. But when he signs up, nothing in the advertising etc tells him that some of his opponents are using tools which provide a significant advantage (and no, we can't assume he reads the fine print of the T&C). Nothing tells him that his opponents can see more information on their screen than he can on his. He has been sold one experience but, in practice, he receives another.

If HUDs are allowed then, as part of the sign-up process, all new players should be clearly warned about their use by others and informed of the option to buy and use one themselves.
Thank you for illustrating what I tried to get across itt so well. This is my stance and view point to a TEE.
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Old 06-16-2015, 05:29 AM   #866
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Richas View Post
it is beyond doubt that Stars work with HUD suppliers to keep the s/w working well.

Last edited by raidalot; 06-16-2015 at 05:49 AM.
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Old 06-16-2015, 05:35 AM   #867
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
Was trying to imagine what changing Note Caddy might mean in terms of win-rates ...

Current Situation - Approx. Winrates for Zoom
Average Regular Winrate: 2bb/100
Average Recreational Winrate: -5bb/100
PokerStars Rake: 6bb/100

(maybe more like 1bb/100, -10bb/100, and 8bb/100?)

If Certain Software is Banned (eg. Parts of NoteCaddy) - Possible Scenarios, with Possible Approximate Winrates for Zoom
  1. Possible Scenario 1 - No Change
    Average Regular Winrate: 2bb/100
    Average Recreational Winrate: -5bb/100
    PokerStars Rake: 6bb/100
  2. Possible Scenario 2 - Small Change
    Average Regular Winrate: 1bb/100
    Average Recreational Winrate: -4.5bb/100 (zero sum game, twice as many losing players)
    PokerStars Rake: 6bb/100
  3. Possible Scenario 3 - Big Change ... possibly no more winning players?
    Average Regular Winrate: 0bb/100
    Average Recreational Winrate: -4bb/100
    PokerStars Rake: 6bb/100
  4. Possible Scenario 4 - Really Big Change
    Average Regular Winrate: -10bb/100
    Average Recreational Winrate: 1bb/100
    PokerStars Rake: 6bb/100

Maybe someone tinkering around with numbers could find a way that more people wind up winning if there's a big change to the system ... but it seems like maybe banning software might at this point be too little too late? Unless it's coupled with rake cuts maybe?
I think, and I could be wrong, but based on my own experience it will make no difference to the rate recs lose at if NC is banned. Although fish come in a few different varieties it is fairly easy to work out how to exploit them and you really only need a few hud stats for this. NC is used against other regs you are battling with on a regular basis who will usually have a reasonably decent game who's leaks aren't as obvious.

Also, I've not really seen it discussed so far but how are we defining who is a recreational player and who is a regular?
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Old 06-16-2015, 06:01 AM   #868
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Husker View Post
I think, and I could be wrong, but based on my own experience it will make no difference to the rate recs lose at if NC is banned. Although fish come in a few different varieties it is fairly easy to work out how to exploit them and you really only need a few hud stats for this. NC is used against other regs you are battling with on a regular basis who will usually have a reasonably decent game who's leaks aren't as obvious.
I totally agree, i already explained that on a previous post (but since most of the anti-HUDs / anti-NC activists on this thread are obvious RECs, they don't understand how poker works).

Quote:
Originally Posted by KDash View Post
Concerning notecaddy:

1) I am surprised that almost nobody stated this from all what I read (30 pages of this thread). But the main argument of the ones who want to see notecaddy banned, is that this will bring more recreational players and therefore it is good for the economy of poker. This argument is FALSE.
What notecaddy does, is that it allows you to build some custom stats of your own. The main stats you need in a poker game are already provided by default by HEM and PT4 (and HUDs in general). Allowing you to build custom stat only allows you to build stats for some very specific spots which are not covered by the basic HEM and PT4’s stats. But the thing about these spots, is that they don’t happen very often. And therefore, FOR NOTECADDY TO BE USEFULL, YOU NEED A BIG SAMPLE ON YOUR OPPONENT.
Then, what is the definition of a recreational player? It is someone who don’t play very often, therefore it is someone you will never have any big sample on. Therefore, NOTECADDY DOESN’T HELP YOU WHATSOEVER AGAINST RECREATIONNAL PLAYERS. The only stats you are going to have on RECs are going to be VPIP/PFR/3B/CB and that’s it, and honestly you don’t need more to play against them. And to be honest, you don’t even need that to play them, because you can see them just by looking at their stack size, their avatar, the fact that they post a blind when they sit, the fact that they limp, the fact that they have a cell-phone icon, their bet sizes, their timing tells, and the possibility to color code them as soon as you see one of those things. All these small things are more than enough to identify a REC and start targeting him at the table.
Banning notecaddy won’t change the poker experience of the RECs by any mean, and won’t change their winrates. The ones in this thread stating that banning notecaddy would help RECs (without any argumentation) clearly have no clue on the matter, and sound a lot like RECs who believe in santa and think that the only way for them to get saved from their laziness would be for PS to go ahead and fleece the players who worked hard to master notecaddy, and that if such a thing happened they would turn into winning players overnight without having to provide any effort or any kind of commitment to the game.
2) What I just said is also true against regs at low limit stakes. For the simple reason that at NL100 and below, the field is just too wide in order to get a sufficient sample even on regs and to be able to start using notecaddy properly. THEREFORE, THE ONLY AREA WHERE NOTECADDY HAS AN IMPACT, IS IN THE NL200+ REG BATTLES. And honestly, I am pretty sure that most of them are using it already. So I really don’t see how notecaddy is a problem. And I really don’t understand why all of a sudden PS feels the need to come along and interfere in reg on reg battles.
3) Notecaddy is not a no skill plug and play software such as a seating script can be. It takes hundreds of hours to learn how to properly use it, especially if you want to build customs stats of your own. And even if you prefer paying and playing with a premium HUD built by somebody else, it still requires a lot of time, efforts and talent to learn how to properly use these kind of HUDs.
4) So now, what is going to happen if PS bans notecaddy? Will the NL200+ regs who are using it just throw out of the window the hundreds of hours they already spent trying to master it? Or will they just find another poker room which allows it? To me, the answer is pretty simple. Yes, pokerstar’s software is nice and I like playing on it, but if for no reason they start saying that the hundreds of hours I invested in a fully legal software are now worth nothing, then I will just go play somewhere else. So, if PS doesn’t care about loosing most of their supernova+ player pool for no reason and no potential gain, they should just go ahead and do it.
To TrustySam, in your scenarios, PS' winrate doesn't change (it's yet to be prooved but let's say your are right). What you don't say is that, if PS takes measures to destroy the winrate, already low, of their regs (average of 2bb/100...), then the trafic of the platform is going to drop down a lot. So even if PS keeps the same winrate, they are going to loose a lot of money.

And also, lol to that :

"Possible Scenario 4 - Really Big Change
Average Regular Winrate: -10bb/100
Average Recreational Winrate: 1bb/100
PokerStars Rake: 6bb/100"

You need to explain me how a REC could possibly have a winrate of 11bb/100 superior to a reg. It's pretty much the same as saying that a soccer team of random players you picked on the street are going to beat FC Barcelone 11-0...
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Old 06-16-2015, 06:07 AM   #869
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by t0bes1 View Post
I support the proposed changes
Less arguing, more posts like this.

I support the proposed changes.

If you agree quote with the second sentence.
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Old 06-16-2015, 06:09 AM   #870
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by TopPair2Pair View Post
Can you provide a couple of links/threads to this? Pm if you prefer. Thanks
This is an extract from my submission to a UKGC consultation back in Sept 2013.

Quote:
Case Study: PokerStars (Zoom) and PokerTracker
PokerStars developed a new product called Zoom Poker which went into Beta
release in March 2012 and was launched in May 2012. This was and is an
important, popular and successful PokerStars product.

Zoom poker is a so called “fast fold” version of online poker. It's main
implementation is for cash ring games. The product works by having players join alarge player pool. They are then allocated a seat at a cash table. If they decide to fold their hand they are transferred to another table made up of players from the pool before the hand they were participating in is completed and their hand is only folded when it is their turn to act and they face an opponent's bet.

The product had development complexities relating to having players maintain appropriate position within their games on the multiple tables but also presented technical challenges for developers of HUD software. These included the rapid change of players but also the ability to track the outcome of games which the player had left but might still have valuable information to track yet to be revealed via the completion of the hand. The technical challenge for anyone developing a HUD product for Zoom was and is significant.

Throughout the Beta Test and on day one of the product launch a PokerTracker HUD product was available for players to purchase/use. Their competitors struggled to develop a similar product for some time. This led to some players changing providers and others paying for upgrades to access the Zoom HUD product. Clearly this was of benefit to PokerTracker but that availability was also of crucial importance for the product as a large proportion of PokerStars players that they wanted to use the new product are used to and want/need a HUD to access the new product. Without the third party software the launch and commercial value of the product would be at significant risk.

The contractual arrangements surrounding this joint product launch are unclearbut the managers of PokerTracker are relatively open in their forum engagementwith players on controversial issues (see HUD Support - Case Study below). They have denied that PokerStars paid PokerTracker to develop the Zoom HUD, or that PokerStars provided them with a proprietary API for their product, though not that API information was disclosed to them.

It should be noted that the official PokerTracker poster in the forum was fully aware that such activities might involve regulatory issues in some jurisdictions. A co-owner did say, in another thread:

Quote:
Right now [24/04/2012) we have a major competitive advantage as noone knows how we support ZOOM (other than some on the PokerStars
development team). Why would we voluntarily share that information
and allow our competitors to catch up? There is a reason that we were
able to have a working ZOOM HUD available the exact day ZOOM was
released whereas other competitors either took weeks or still do not
have support at all.
The fact that there was and is an ongoing relationship is clear. Various options
include:
 Common Interest -
joint development agreement with each meeting own costs,
provision of mutual technical support and joint testing (with or
without a formal contract)
8
 PokerTracker Pays -
PokerTracker receive support in return for payments to the remote
operator or a share of revenues from sales of their Zoom product
 Backdoor PokerTracker Pays -
non software or support payments to PokerStars ie licence rights for
using the Zoom trade mark or some other non software item – such
as PokerTracker's sponsorship of PokerStars' EPT series 10 (a live
poker tournament series)
 PokerStars Pays –
it is still possible that PokerStars did make payments to assist in the
development of the Zoom HUD software but also placed NDA
restrictions upon their supplier resulting in a denial when such
payments seemed to have been confirmed.

Of these possibilities I believe the most likely is that the commercial advantage provided to PokerTracker by having access to the development software and technical support meant that they entered a payment, or revenue sharing, arrangement with PokerStars (the dominant market participant) which resulted in the supplier (PokerTracker) paying the Operator (PokerStars). This would of course be funded via sales of third party (interface) software to consumers of the Zoom product.

An additional commercial link is that at the time it was possible to sign up to
PokerStars as a new customer via a PokerStars affiliate and receive PokerTrackerfrom the affiliate. PartyPoker allowed such HUD software to be bought using points from their reward scheme.
The full consultation response is here
http://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk...tachment-1.pdf

The third party software stuff starts on page 5
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Old 06-16-2015, 06:10 AM   #871
mme
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

quote: bang!

that's why the door that needs to get kicked in is located on a rocky island and this discussion is just for fun and entertainment.
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Old 06-16-2015, 06:15 AM   #872
KDash
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeyItsMeMikey View Post
Less arguing, more posts like this.

I support the proposed changes.

If you agree quote with the second sentence.
Of course, don't argue since this thread made it clear taht the anti-HUD/anti-NC activist don't have any argument besides saying that this is going to be good for poker without explaining why.
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Old 06-16-2015, 06:17 AM   #873
wiZkindE
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Whats wrong with odds oracle? If they ban it I will just fill the occasional equity calculation in online on their site but think it's ridiculous to propose to prohibit it. I play a number of sites and I can just imagine openining OO when stars is open even though it is completely unrelated to my stars activity and then stars can lock my account, take funds or forward the issue to their security team no thanks. The point I am trying to make is, equity calculating websites are also abound and there is nothing they can do about that and I sure hope stars isn't going (be able) to police internet browsing behavior for equity calc sites. Anybody can do that also recreational players. Some of these other software programs like flopzilla however should be banned as it goes into way more (too much imo) detail and gives too much information and can thus be quantified as an unfair advantage.
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Old 06-16-2015, 06:18 AM   #874
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

From OP:
Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerStars Steve View Post
For complete clarity, this does not mean that we will aim exclusively to make the decision that we think will be most popular in this forum. We are far more likely to be swayed by quality reasoning than by number of players sharing an opinion. If you wish to impact the decision, I encourage you to share not only your preferred outcome but also your reasoning.
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Old 06-16-2015, 06:22 AM   #875
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

The idea that huds and NoteCaddy doesn't have an effect on the winrates of fish is ridiculous. Their stack is likely to get picked off even faster when Notecaddy picks up a tendency before you can notice it while you are playing too many tables or playing zoom. If that Notecaddy user bought hand histories, the fish may lose his stack the very first hand he plays because his tendencies are already known. Sure that fish is likely to punt his stack eventually most times he plays but now when his bluff gets picked off the very first orbit every time he plays, he is going to quit forever sooner than later. gg poker

There are/were also many recs that are/were slowly losing money but now with notecaddy maybe they are losing twice as fast. It won't be long until they all quit too. gg poker
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