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Old 06-15-2015, 04:27 PM   #801
DarkMattersMan
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by iamblackornot View Post
what "major advantage" are u talking about? no one will improve his game just by adding hud. without skill it's useless. and when there is skill it just helps to multitable. it is just more comfortable representation of notes. instead of tons of words u have numbers, which doesn't give u a right decision itself. so, the only thing it would change - drop down the volume significally, regulars will focus on bumhunting much more, recr. players will lose the same way. ecology is not only about recs. nowadays it more about regs vs regs.
See King Aceholes post.

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Originally Posted by king acehole View Post
In this thread we have two groups:

1. Arguing to preserve their bottom line at the expense of others.
2. Arguing that we must make changes that will improve conditions and slow down the impending death of online poker.

Everyone(myself included) that uses a HUD is in violation of the spirit of the game. Just as the guy in the live casino is angle-shooting when he asks the dealer to see someones cards after the other player mucks. If he doesn't suspect his opponent of cheating, the reason to see the players cards is illegitimate, and thus he is exploiting a loophole and in fact cheating the other player. If someone asks me to see my mucked hand live, I make a big deal about them accusing me of cheating. "Who am I colluding with? What is your evidence, call the floor!" Most people are unaware of this nuance and card rooms could care less, but people who ask to see mucked cards for personal info are cheats.

Pokerstars let's us see cards after showdown for the same reason they do at B&M rooms; to prevent cheats. We HUD users are exploiting a loop-hole, using data that is made available to catch cheaters, for personal advantage. In the short term this helped some players and Stars quite a bit. But now we've gone to far and the games are getting destroyed.

Making the mucked cards immediately viewable to all is a Pandora's Box that needs to be closed.

Do you want play poker on a computer against people?
Or do you want to play poker against people with the aid of computer assistance?

Thanks Skier, for being honest in a matter that will clearly affect your bottom line.
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Old 06-15-2015, 04:32 PM   #802
devera
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by FR-Nit View Post
Funny how this thread has gone from drawing new lines for what is acceptable for 3rd party software to ban all HUDs Stars banning all HUDs, good idea! This would end their monopoly without doubt in the blink of an eye.
That's clearly not gonna happen so that's not really the point, I think everyone here understands that (regardless of their position towards huds, 3rd party software etc).

What needs to be done is find a balance between "human based" live poker logic, work and computations and software assisted decisions (at the table). That's why I think a pure "static" hud is completely fair, since ANYONE can learn to use one to help make decisions, regardless of its size (some have it small, others have it big, simply because they worked harder than the rest). The difference between a small hud and a big one is almost precisely correlated with the amount of work you put it, hence it is absolutely fair.

However, villain-tailored systems like the much discussed badges have no real human based work, except for the if-then statement you define in whatever interface you define it (and sometimes you don't even have to define s.hit, since it's pre-programmed for your total convenience). In this case poker is no longer a competition for human logic, interpretation and deduction, but a race towards who has the best computer assistance in order to spot in an instant how you can own an opponent. And, as much as I despise the badge system now, I am absolutely convinced we have even uglier systems lurking right around the corner. I just hope there's enough reason and lack of emotion to realize that before it's really too late.

Last edited by devera; 06-15-2015 at 04:40 PM.
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Old 06-15-2015, 04:39 PM   #803
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by iamblackornot View Post
what "major advantage" are u talking about? no one will improve his game just by adding hud. without skill it's useless.
I don't know what to say if you don't think its advantageous to have detailed data, compiled and displayed, on all the past actions of every opponent at the table, based on the current session and all prior sessions (and, if the player makes a bit of effort, also based on games he didn't even play with you). Of course it doesn't replace skill entirely but a reasonably informed player with a HUD is at a clear advantage to one without.
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Old 06-15-2015, 04:53 PM   #804
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by iamblackornot View Post
in chess players don't multitable. and on top level players study each other enough to need no clues. it is like u will be able to analize your hand history with the same software and it will give the same info that u can note in pokerstars client.
Eh? Multitabling is a routine chess club event, the invited guest star takes on many players, walking the tables as the rest of us plebs sit. The only grand masters I have ever played (even beating a couple, back in the day) was when they had multiple opponents and they took pity on the geeky kid in the nearly all adult club.
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Old 06-15-2015, 04:54 PM   #805
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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so im a 6 tabling reg at $100... and ill tell u what I am not here (im sure the recs/fish would agree) for some hud lovin 16 table'r...

so who cares if they have to adjust and play fewer games - if it means rec/fish last longer then i am all for it... and if the 16 table'rs dont like it? where r they going? what other site would even offer 8 tables for them to play at during peak hours?

and your data babble makes no sense...

but again - LET THE MARKET DECIDE

online is getting a bad rap - whether you like it or not some people wont play online poker because they think using software is cheating... so bring those people into the fold by offering games they will play

one of two things will happen - we will have demand or none

but screaming that the Apocalypse is coming by offering something that clearly a good number of players want is silly... especially since i am advocating a hybrid that allows both - SO THE MARKET DECIDES
Exactly, why are people so afraid off tables for rec`s and other WHO prefer to play poker and not want to be a semibot ?

If Stars make tables who are anonymous and therefore HUD free along with a lobby for HUD users, I bet that all regs slow and surely switches to the HUD free tables bc thats were the recs is (me included).

The problem for 16 tbl nit regs is ofc that they would be forced to play poker with their brain and not their 314 programs, cya at the felt Guys
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Old 06-15-2015, 05:00 PM   #806
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by raidalot View Post
Of course it doesn't replace skill entirely but a reasonably informed player with a HUD is at a clear advantage to one without.
i can say the same thing about boots in soccer. so should we prohibit this kind of footware?

im against mining, bots, seating scripts. but huds itself aren't making that difference. a lot of regulars cant beat small stakes with huds even with insane table selection.
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Old 06-15-2015, 05:07 PM   #807
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by iamblackornot View Post
a lot of regulars cant beat small stakes with huds even with insane table selection.
because HUDs are outclassed by (semi) bots nowadays?
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Old 06-15-2015, 05:10 PM   #808
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

All these massive software provide too much of a shortcut that now pro poker players are to lazy to go without because if gone reduces their win rates to much. Get rid of everything, leave huds and do all the work yourself like translating and inputting your own notes.

Just so you all know, the software isnt available to everyone, how about the people in 3rd world countries. How would you like it if you had to pay one months salary just for one piece of software with a couple more to go to even be bare minimum on an more equal playing field.
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Old 06-15-2015, 05:11 PM   #809
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

..because a HUD alone is more or less useless nowadays and you need additional software on top of it? like static-tables-in-a-computer(R) that are generated with HUDs (well) as one piece in the toolchain?
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Old 06-15-2015, 05:13 PM   #810
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by iamblackornot View Post
i can say the same thing about boots in soccer. so should we prohibit this kind of footware?

im against mining, bots, seating scripts. but huds itself aren't making that difference. a lot of regulars cant beat small stakes with huds even with insane table selection.
Now I'm not sure whether or not you believe HUDs give an advantage.

The fact that some regs can't beat small stakes even with HUDs doesn't show HUDs don't help the user. I assume they would lose even more if they didn't use them. Reg /= good player.

Boots in soccer is a very poor analogy since all players have to wear them. I can't think of a (legal) situation in any other competitive game that is directly comparable to HUDs, probably because no other game condones such a blatant structural imbalance between players.
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Old 06-15-2015, 05:26 PM   #811
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by VP$IP View Post
You and I do not agree on what is an effective corrective action.
have you even read skier's posts, describing his software which started all of this? nothing in your VM/OS proposal prevents that type of software.
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Old 06-15-2015, 05:28 PM   #812
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

all the pro NC broken english first posts are pretty amusing but its not helping your cause

obviously if so many ppl are so scared they can no longer win at poker bc they are going to lose NC then whatever it does is way to powerful

ive never used NC before but if for whatever reason it doesnt become banned i will buy it immediately as im sure many other ppl reading this thread will also do...

bye bye NC
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Old 06-15-2015, 05:32 PM   #813
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by greg nice View Post
have you even read skier's posts, describing his software which started all of this? nothing in your VM/OS proposal prevents that type of software.
I do not believe that voice actuated advice tables are the most significant threat. They are creative, and they have been very significant in re-starting this discussion of assistance programs and automation.
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Old 06-15-2015, 05:39 PM   #814
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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I do not believe that voice actuated advice tables are the most significant threat. They are creative, and they have been very significant in re-starting this discussion of assistance programs and automation.
in your opinion, what is the most significant threat? bots?
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Old 06-15-2015, 05:40 PM   #815
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

verything that takes one step closer to being a bot is. imo give them their TV time. give them more than they can handle.
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Old 06-15-2015, 05:49 PM   #816
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I'm against all HUDs, but just to address the NC users who were "begged" to come itt to support it:

http://www.holdemmanager.com/buy/231...mium---hold-em
http://www.holdemmanager.com/buy/231...mium---hold-em

I don't know how anybody can argue that this doesn't provide a material advantage over opponents. As well as making advanced notes it identifies opponent-specific sizing and timing tells, identifies opponent-specific ranges, displays badges in specific game situations and correlates hand-strength with particular tendencies. Some of the advertised features (direct quotes):

NoteCaddy reads hand histories, understands what happens, and takes notes on behaviors that are significant.

NoteCaddy is fully programmable and the different combinations of notes that can be taken are in the billions.

Beyond just taking notes on single instances, NoteCaddy can identify patterns and frequencies that will help you understand the way your enemies play.

over 174 automated note types plus the ability to create custom notes.

Automated notes of important tendencies and graphs to indicate the hand strength for that specific tendency

quickly see if your opponent has bet sizing tells.

Exploit opponents via badges: Powerful Badges appear when an exploitable situation unfolds, choose from default badges or create your own

Hover over a note to see the hand distribution breakdown to help form the opponents likely range

quickly see if people have timing tells with strong hands
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Old 06-15-2015, 05:54 PM   #817
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Is there a way a poker site could modify their SW to prevent HUDS and other third party SW from reading the pot size and hole cards etc. to prevent these tools from even working?

If so, is there a reason they don't do it?

Does PS get a kickback from the tool developers, like a percentage of sales?
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Old 06-15-2015, 06:23 PM   #818
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Hi Steve,

as PLO midstakes-regular on your site and Supernova, im curious when will you or somebody from your company comment on this or make an appearance in this thread?

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/15...-them-1537778/

The evidence is pretty clear and me and a lot of others kinda smart ppl don't understand how you, pokerstars, handle this situation/topic and cant (don't wanna!?) see the obvious. Do you think this will just go away when you just leave it uncomment? NO! It will get worse! Believe me, the media will love the story, how honest ppl get cheated on the virtual felt while the biggest site on the planet with represents like CR7, Neymar jr., Rafa Nadal and many others just give a **** and meanwhile pocketing a lot of money from this cheaters.

Best Regards and i hope to hear smth from you or your team very soon.
just sent this via PM to PSSteve, hope ill get here or via PM an statement
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Old 06-15-2015, 06:24 PM   #819
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by bayoudonk View Post
Is there a way a poker site could modify their SW to prevent HUDS and other third party SW from reading the pot size and hole cards etc. to prevent these tools from even working?
no

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Originally Posted by bayoudonk View Post
Does PS get a kickback from the tool developers, like a percentage of sales?
i can't speak for every tool, but its 99.9% no
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Old 06-15-2015, 06:30 PM   #820
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Eh? Multitabling is a routine chess club event, the invited guest star takes on many players, walking the tables as the rest of us plebs sit. The only grand masters I have ever played (even beating a couple, back in the day) was when they had multiple opponents and they took pity on the geeky kid in the nearly all adult club.
It's true (I played GM Bronstein like that and didn't win) but that isn't how a typical chess tournament works.

Earlier on it was mentioned that coaches can shout instructions to their players in football. In tennis, which is an individual sport like poker and more analogous, coaches are not allowed to instruct players mid-match.

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Boots in soccer is a very poor analogy since all players have to wear them. I can't think of a (legal) situation in any other competitive game that is directly comparable to HUDs, probably because no other game condones such a blatant structural imbalance between players.
Probably Le Mans where some drivers are allowed 850 kg cars while other drivers have 1245 kg cars would be close. Presumably some people ITT think that if every car was subject to the same technical specifications then it would take the skill out of it.

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ive never used NC before but if for whatever reason it doesnt become banned i will buy it immediately as im sure many other ppl reading this thread will also do...
This is my attitude. I would describe myself as a serious recreational or something like that in between rec and reg (I probably post here more than play because my job gives me lots of these little five minute breaks).

At the moment I am not playing at all online because I am busy working on my charts. Obviously full-timers can do more work than I can, and it makes sense for them ton buy better charts and software than my home-made ones and my newly installed FPDB free HUD, but I won't play till I at least have partially closed that gap by finishing my own charts.

I'm willing to stop raking in order to spend that time but I think a lot of people who want to have fun and just play won't do it. They are willing to play -EV but they won't play without a level playing field. They didn't know about HUDs before but now people are streaming on Twitch this will become known about.
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Old 06-15-2015, 06:32 PM   #821
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Obvious ****** is obvious.

You have it completely backwards. Standard HUDs reduce the edges between regs, in the same way that steroids reduce the edges between athletes, since HUDs increase/replace the mathematical and memory skills of morons such that they can almost compete with people that are actually good at poker.
Stars likes catering to armies of HUDbots precisely because of the small edges and high rake that results. They don't like Skier's software, because it gives him an edge on the cartel of users running CoffeeHUD. It was that cartel of HUDbot bumhunters that triggered the investigation of his software in the first place!

You're clearly not a power-user of NoteCaddy. I've made note definitions and badges that are based on the way that up to five stats interact.
Even the basic "ISO" badge uses two stats (limp-calls pre, check-folds flop at an exploitable frequency). FWIW, that badge is an obvious example of one that exploits recreational players, but is pretty much useless for regs (they don't limp), so you can also quit with the "Notecaddy is useless for beating recreationals" trope.

The irony is killing me.
First of all, thanks for calling me a ******. Nice to meet you.

On Pokerstars there is a fish at almost every table. There are 2 fish at a TON of tables. There are 3 fish at a LOT of tables. There are 4-5 fish at some tables. The other seats are filled mostly by terrible regs. Good winning regs are few and far between. There is also a LOT of terrible whales who play 80-100 VPIP or just open shove and a TON of huge whales paying 50+ VPIP.

There is 250,000+ people online at peak hours. There is 100+ tables per limit. If you are not capable of finding a soft table and if you think among 250,000 players and a 1,000 tables you cant find more fish than on some small site, then you, impolite uncivilised ass/hole, are ******ed. I am probably too, for getting involved here talking to angry damaged people incapable of having a civilised argument based discussion, instead of communicating directly with Pokerstars. If your other thousands of posts are in this manner, you must live a sad life. And don't be a crybaby now, you can't insult someone for no reason and not expect to be called on it.

So you are worried about NL200+ games? It's not HUD that ****ed up the games, it's Zoom. With no Zoom there could be 200+ tables per limit and you could choose the table you want to play at. And if you couldn't find a bad player to play with then, then what can I say - there is no hope for you.

ISO badge uses 2 stats? Using that logic, a simple stat like turn cbet in HEM uses 3 stats: RFI/ISO, flop cbet and turn cbet. What is killing you is not irony, it's more likely a brain tumor. If you actually had the balls to insult people face to face then being an ass/hole would probably kill you. I'm so done with this thread. Stars asks about slightly changing the rules on software and people think that's an invitation for them to pollute the discussion with the lets ban HUDs propaganda. GTFO.

If banning HUDs will ever make sense, trust me, they will not care about your opinion, and arguments based on reason and proof will be presented so no one smart will be against it. I already said, I would agree with a HUD ban this exact moment if someone presented a list of valid arguments that are not based on science fiction. With all the claims of better games with no HUDs and better bottom line for both the players AND Pokerstars with no evidence, you would be better off on an anti vaccination movement forum.

Last edited by gmiko; 06-15-2015 at 06:38 PM.
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Old 06-15-2015, 06:35 PM   #822
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by LektorAJ View Post
Probably Le Mans where some drivers are allowed 850 kg cars while other drivers have 1245 kg cars would be close. Presumably some people ITT think that if every car was subject to the same technical specifications then it would take the skill out of it.
No, not skill, it would take the fun out of it and destroy the essence of the competition. It's not only about being a better driver, it's also about having a better car. Take Formula 1 as an example. Used to be fun before all the rules. Now? You can watch it as a substitute for Xanax.
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Old 06-15-2015, 06:38 PM   #823
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by raidalot View Post
NoteCaddy reads hand histories, understands what happens, and takes notes on behaviors that are significant.

NoteCaddy is fully programmable and the different combinations of notes that can be taken are in the billions.

Beyond just taking notes on single instances, NoteCaddy can identify patterns and frequencies that will help you understand the way your enemies play.

over 174 automated note types plus the ability to create custom notes.

Automated notes of important tendencies and graphs to indicate the hand strength for that specific tendency

quickly see if your opponent has bet sizing tells.

Exploit opponents via badges: Powerful Badges appear when an exploitable situation unfolds, choose from default badges or create your own

Hover over a note to see the hand distribution breakdown to help form the opponents likely range

quickly see if people have timing tells with strong hands

>>understands, takes notes, programmable, combinations ..in the billions, can identify patterns, automated, ..

sounds static to me. like a rock that never moved and never will. dead with no signs live whatsoever. a reverse parrot sketch.
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Old 06-15-2015, 06:47 PM   #824
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by bayoudonk View Post
Does PS get a kickback from the tool developers, like a percentage of sales?
directly: no idea
indirectly: definitely yes

microsoft for example based huge part of their business model on 3rd party developers developers developers developers.
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Old 06-15-2015, 06:49 PM   #825
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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>>understands, takes notes, programmable, combinations ..in the billions, can identify patterns, automated, ..

sounds static to me. like a rock that never moved and never will. dead with no signs live whatsoever. a reverse parrot sketch.
Taking a sales page as an anti software argument is genius.

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