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Old 06-15-2015, 01:58 PM   #776
raikkonen3
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

That won't please the NC shills.
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Old 06-15-2015, 01:59 PM   #777
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by raikkonen3 View Post
Still not seeing a source, surely if it's such an obvious correct statement then you'll be able to supply a medical journal/article or something of that nature supporting your claim.
Please google this :

"steroid health impact"

I am not going to turn this thread into a medical one since it's clearly not the point.
Since you are pushing on such a nonsense, I have no choice but to stop arguing with you since you are obviously a huge troll.
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Old 06-15-2015, 02:00 PM   #778
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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This is not the way to approach the problem. As soon as you lock down the operating system, cheaters will move to a second computer or paper or w/e. This is an example of a level of enforcement which is going to be so over the top that the activity it is enforcing is not worthwhile anymore, and which will not have much effect in terms of enforcement. You do realise that someone could still intercept the monitor feed and screen scrape that way?
You and I do not agree on what is an effective corrective action. The reality is that Stars has limited information about what we do on our computers when we play poker. They have some very smart security people, but the use of VMs has put them at a disadvantage. They now must make inferences about what is happening on a client's computer.

Step 1 is to create a bootable, strong encryption poker operating system so that nothing can run on it unless specifically authorized by Stars. Each instance of it would be assigned a unique identifier, and it would "phone home" for authorization before displaying any game state information. Observers would not have a functioning operating system. There would be a public portal where observers and new players could have some limited interaction opportunities.

As I mentioned in some other recent posts, other steps are possible. There would be additional measures to make interception of the monitor feed detectable. Stars would own the operating system, and additional monitoring of the video out parameters would be practical from within the system.

To the player, the additional step would be to put in a bootable CD or flash drive, and boot from it. And for that minor inconvenience, the reward would be that bots would be impracticable and expensive, data mining would stop, and "prohibited software" would actually mean that the prohibited software would not run.

And it does not matter to me where Stars chooses to draw the line on software. What matters is that they can enforce it consistently. Right now, they are making a valiant attempt at enforcement in an operating system that they do not own, and have restricted rights and powers of observation in.

If someone where forced to move to "paper or w/e" as a result, that would be an improvement, in my opinion.

But I do acknowledge that Stars, by virtue of their market position and corporate culture is not inclined to incorporate these measures now on their signature system. It would either be a wholly-owned subsidiary, or an innovative start up company.
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Old 06-15-2015, 02:04 PM   #779
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by raikkonen3 View Post
That won't please the NC shills.
nor will this...

Day also listed a number of programs that would likely be judged as non-permitted should the suggested change go into effect. Among those:

SessionLord’s Preflop Chart
Holy Grail of Poker
Poker Academy
HEM2’s LeakBuster
FlopZilla
Odds Oracle
PokerStove
NoteCaddy; Day offered the following qualifier — “[the program] as is would require changes. It is permissible for HUDs to filter / drill down via street, but not by action facing or hole card / communicate card values.”
PT4’s Leak Tracker [PT4 is PokerTracker 4, perhaps the most popular third-party software aid on the market, and Leak Tracker is an optional utility within it.]
Noted Day, “This is by no means a complete list, but a starting point to demonstrate what consequences the proposed changes would be.” Day also announced that no implementation of the proposed new rule would be made for at least 10 days, to allow the online poker community in general the chance to sound off on the new proposal. Dozens of third-party software programs are already forbidden by PokerStars, and it is expected that most (if not all) of the makers of the above programs and others are expected to lobby hard against the new rules.
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Old 06-15-2015, 02:09 PM   #780
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Poor guys, they might actually have to use their brains to make decisions now.
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Old 06-15-2015, 02:09 PM   #781
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by iamblackornot View Post
who the fk prevents u from changing your play so that u would exploit the guy who tries to exploit u by using software?? this software is the reason why poker is developing recently, otherwise it would stay in dark ages. and recr. players would still lose money quickly, cause u don't need soft to exploit that kind of guys who in general have the same bunch of leaks. these guys would ask for prohibiting poker education, returning lost money, using brain and etc.
So your answer to being exploited via artificially discovered leaks is "play better"? By the same token, you're gonna ask me next year "who the fk prevents you from playing better and beat pokersnowie?"

The fault in logic is absolutely horrendous when people talk about things they get overly attached to. Using all the logical fallacies there are, just to prove a "point". I don't think any real poker player wants poker to return to its dark ages. But I really laugh my ass off seeing how cybots promote the "new overly computer-assisted age". Which is just a tad short of the AI age, just wait a bit

I have a HUD that's bigger then 99% of huds out there. And I use it to make my own decisions, I don't want some software pointing me in the right direction live at the table, telling me exactly where to aim my sniper rifle. Cause that's ***** bs.

Progress is good, as long as it's not steering everyone into self oblivion. With no rules and regulations, we'll all be carrying freaking bazookas on our shoulder on a day to day basis, just because progress made this possible and because "everyone else has them". Imagine then an argument in traffic.. So no, let the army have bazookas and restrict them from everyone else. And on the same note - don't let anyone use software that points you in the right direction while playing at the table, cause we'd all be annihilating each other soon, for the sole benefit of PS and alike. Instead let everyone use the tools offline (however advanced) and then test their newly acquired knowledge at the table. And then there's no danger of self annihilating, simply because no one can beat pokersnowie (or pokersnowie 2.0 or w/e).

And just for clarification and before anyone says again something about me wanting huds gone - a truly static hud is not "pointing" you in any direction. It just displays data, in an equal fashion for all and you have to interpret it, by yourself. Some can manage more data, some less, but the point is YOU are the one drawing the conclusions (good or bad). Whereas a badge system is actually instantly and silently pointing your sniper rifle in the right direction. "There, now shoot!". I call BS on that.
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Old 06-15-2015, 02:10 PM   #782
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Poor guys, they might actually have to use their brains to make decisions now.
aww
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Old 06-15-2015, 02:10 PM   #783
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by iamblackornot View Post
these 2 point are nonsense and the reason why recr. players are moaning. are u a regular? if yes, mb u would stop working on your game, make analysis of your hands, discuss poker strategies with other regs???? cause it's unfair! recr. players dont do that, they come here to enjoy poker, not to play with a poker geek.
I don't entirely understand your point. I think it's perfectly sustainable for me to argue that it is fair that players put different amounts of effort into learning and improving their game whilst believing that in-game tools which provide a major advantage are unfair. I think it is perfectly fair that a more skilled player (of any game) should have a greater chance to win. However, a HUD-user and a non-HUD player are in effect playing the game by substantially different rules, which I believe is unfair.

Compare to chess. It's fair that some players have an advantage through greater skills and experience but not fair that one player uses advanced chess software (highlighting his opponents past moves/weaknesses for example) to help him in-game vs a player who does not.
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Old 06-15-2015, 02:11 PM   #784
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Gravy trains over guys. I will be putting a significant balance back on stars if they follow through with this.
Also, if and when they implement this policy, anybody that is caught thereafter in using said software needs to be prosecuted and pursued for theft/fraud. Otherwise they will just ignore it.
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Old 06-15-2015, 02:12 PM   #785
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by heathen1 View Post
nor will this...

Day also listed a number of programs that would likely be judged as non-permitted should the suggested change go into effect. Among those:

SessionLord’s Preflop Chart
Holy Grail of Poker
Poker Academy
HEM2’s LeakBuster
FlopZilla
Odds Oracle
PokerStove
NoteCaddy; Day offered the following qualifier — “[the program] as is would require changes. It is permissible for HUDs to filter / drill down via street, but not by action facing or hole card / communicate card values.”
PT4’s Leak Tracker [PT4 is PokerTracker 4, perhaps the most popular third-party software aid on the market, and Leak Tracker is an optional utility within it.]
Noted Day, “This is by no means a complete list, but a starting point to demonstrate what consequences the proposed changes would be.” Day also announced that no implementation of the proposed new rule would be made for at least 10 days, to allow the online poker community in general the chance to sound off on the new proposal. Dozens of third-party software programs are already forbidden by PokerStars, and it is expected that most (if not all) of the makers of the above programs and others are expected to lobby hard against the new rules.
That article is essentially the first post of this thread.
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Old 06-15-2015, 02:14 PM   #786
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by DarkMattersMan View Post
Gravy trains over guys. I will be putting a significant balance back on stars if they follow through with this.
Also, if and when they implement this policy, anybody that is caught thereafter in using said software needs to be prosecuted and pursued for theft/fraud. Otherwise they will just ignore it.
They would never risk a lifetime ban from stars and/or balance being confiscated.
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Old 06-15-2015, 02:15 PM   #787
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

i dont understand why notecaddy is in the list? they dont say to me call/raise or fold? Only give me stats like hem 2 too. On Live Tournaments you can write too stats of your oppenents? Is this cheating? If they stands, and notecaddy is in the list, than i change my poker client.....
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Old 06-15-2015, 02:17 PM   #788
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by PokerIvey View Post
i dont understand why notecaddy is in the list? they dont say to me call/raise or fold? Only give me stats like hem 2 too. On Live Tournaments you can write too stats of your oppenents? Is this cheating? If they stands, and notecaddy is in the list, than i change my poker client.....
If something tells me that 80% of the time this person bets river with 50% sizing they are bluffing, then I think anyone could infer from that to call - so yes, it's telling you what to do.

EDIT: Good riddance, you won't be missed.
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Old 06-15-2015, 02:24 PM   #789
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by raikkonen3 View Post
If something tells me that 80% of the time this person bets river with 50% sizing they are bluffing, then I think anyone could infer from that to call - so yes, it's telling you what to do.

EDIT: Good riddance, you won't be missed.
Yeah but if you play live game, you can write too stats of your opennent? How many barrels he play or when he folds on riverbet...these stats are available for all.... NC dont say to me call/fold/raise only give me stats. In this case...if nc should be ban, than HM2 too ....lol...dont understand this point.
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Old 06-15-2015, 02:31 PM   #790
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Word to Skier, Two SHAE, and raidalot for their thoughtful contributions.

Skier's information about datamining was particularly concerning.
People that play cash games might just shrug when they hear what's happening to HUSnGs, but look again at this...
Quote:
Originally Posted by skier_5 View Post
There’s a stable called smart spin which says they update their charts on a daily basis based on new population tendencies. Presumably through the act of combining student databases. The situation is completely out of control. And it is completely unfair.
[Images removed to save space, but I urge players to click the links and look at them]
http://i.imgur.com/ve134Yy.png
http://i.imgur.com/JWEo029.png
...and visualise it happening in cashgames. Because it will happen, if it doesn't already.

Since the thread is approaching "full ******", and the arguments have been well rehearsed already (including in the initial NVG thread) I'm just gonna stick with shooting fish in a barrel for lolz.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmiko View Post
(although games look softer and softer too me every day). I don't understand why you think multitabling is bad for the game. Multitabling is why online poker is as big as it is. Also stars being the hardest site online, I disagree
Obvious ****** is obvious.
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Originally Posted by ZKesic View Post
[With a HUD ban] Edges would also be smaller, so alot of regs that are making money right now, wouldn't be able to anymore.
Right now, only few % of the best players are actually making money. If we remove the HM/NC the number will be even lower.
You have it completely backwards. Standard HUDs reduce the edges between regs, in the same way that steroids reduce the edges between athletes, since HUDs increase/replace the mathematical and memory skills of morons such that they can almost compete with people that are actually good at poker.
Stars likes catering to armies of HUDbots precisely because of the small edges and high rake that results. They don't like Skier's software, because it gives him an edge on the cartel of users running CoffeeHUD. It was that cartel of HUDbot bumhunters that triggered the investigation of his software in the first place!
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmiko View Post
Also you can't write in the HUD anyway and notes don't work in pairs. You can't make a note that combines 2 stats and tells you what to do. That should be illegal and as far as I understand it, already is.
You're clearly not a power-user of NoteCaddy. I've made note definitions and badges that are based on the way that up to five stats interact.
Even the basic "ISO" badge uses two stats (limp-calls pre, check-folds flop at an exploitable frequency). FWIW, that badge is an obvious example of one that exploits recreational players, but is pretty much useless for regs (they don't limp), so you can also quit with the "Notecaddy is useless for beating recreationals" trope.
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Originally Posted by gmiko View Post
You may be a NC user, but you obviously have no idea how to use it.
The irony is killing me.
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Old 06-15-2015, 02:39 PM   #791
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by raikkonen3 View Post
If something tells me that 80% of the time this person bets river with 50% sizing they are bluffing, then I think anyone could infer from that to call - so yes, it's telling you what to do.
Since NC stats are taken exactly as common stats like VPIP or 3-bet are taken, NC just shoud not be banned unles it is also banned any tool working in the same way like HM or PT.

Information taken from more specific and/or less frequent spots is not cheating or unfair.
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Old 06-15-2015, 03:11 PM   #792
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

In this thread we have two groups:

1. Arguing to preserve their bottom line at the expense of others.
2. Arguing that we must make changes that will improve conditions and slow down the impending death of online poker.

Everyone(myself included) that uses a HUD is in violation of the spirit of the game. Just as the guy in the live casino is angle-shooting when he asks the dealer to see someones cards after the other player mucks. If he doesn't suspect his opponent of cheating, the reason to see the players cards is illegitimate, and thus he is exploiting a loophole and in fact cheating the other player. If someone asks me to see my mucked hand live, I make a big deal about them accusing me of cheating. "Who am I colluding with? What is your evidence, call the floor!" Most people are unaware of this nuance and card rooms could care less, but people who ask to see mucked cards for personal info are cheats.

Pokerstars let's us see cards after showdown for the same reason they do at B&M rooms; to prevent cheats. We HUD users are exploiting a loop-hole, using data that is made available to catch cheaters, for personal advantage. In the short term this helped some players and Stars quite a bit. But now we've gone to far and the games are getting destroyed.

Making the mucked cards immediately viewable to all is a Pandora's Box that needs to be closed.

Do you want play poker on a computer against people?
Or do you want to play poker against people with the aid of computer assistance?

Thanks Skier, for being honest in a matter that will clearly affect your bottom line.
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Old 06-15-2015, 03:35 PM   #793
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I also agree with raidalot - I would like to see all HUDs banned - which requires not writing the hand history locally (we can already share individual hands on boomplayer, though it would be nice if this came with an export as text function so we could continue to post them here) and allowing sn changes maybe once a month. If that can't be done then pare it back to HUDS that go beyond a basic level. i.e. allow Jivaro with it's 3 stats but ban HEM, PT and FPDB, which I use.

People ITT have got caught up on the word "dynamic" but that's only in the example attached to the rule. The rule itself says "goes beyond a basic level". That's great, you just need to follow though and define that phrase clearly as a max of 5 stats (always the same - not player specific as to which ones shown) and a max of 1800 char of reference material (or 10000 if we want it to be equivalent to what they could realistically leaf through on paper)

Reasoning: Poker is firstly a recreational activity which secondarily and derivatively it is also possible to make a living off. The sustainable vision is of a poker room which is an online version of a place people go for recreation - not an online version of the office or college where people work or study when they are not recreating.

For that reason, you should not listen to people whose vision is of Pokerstars like being back at school:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RuiVieira78 View Post
My Advice: GO STUDY
or those people whose vision of pokerstars is something similar to an extended stay in the office:

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmiko View Post
I support their intelligence and hard work
Instead, do a focus group of your former recreational players. Look for people who lost maybe 100-1000 quid with multiple deposits before they stopped playing and collect them together and show them marketing materials and videos for all of the products discussed in this thread, including HUDS. Let them tell you what they think is fair as a third party tool and what they would like to see implemented in the client. I'm pretty sure they would say the same as players ITT from all levels, winrates and current level of technology use are telling you. Ban it all.

BTW It's no a big issue but I am amazed that you allow third party tools to tell players their absolute hand strength. This functionality is already in the client and turned on during play money games - but you specifically turn it off for real money games - either you think people should be allowed to be told or not - personally I would have it turned on in the real money client to help out total rank beginners.

Last edited by LektorAJ; 06-15-2015 at 03:41 PM.
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Old 06-15-2015, 03:38 PM   #794
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malefiicus View Post
Stars is trying to fix their poker economy issues
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhyTrollMe View Post
Fishes will still lose everything, but slower, so there's more rake.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tolis View Post
As for the reg to rec ratio keeping increasing...


Isn't this the real problem PokerStars is trying to solve?
Where is the official PokerStars discussion thread on this? Whether or not 3rd party software should be banned is the least of their problems.


#

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Old 06-15-2015, 03:40 PM   #795
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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So if someone trains a lot at soccer and becomes way better than someone elese who didn't train as much or at all, then the one who went through the pain of training is a cheater ?
If they use steroids (HUDs/scripts) then yes. Poker should be played with what is possible naturally to humans. Scripts/HUDs give humans non human abilities over other players.

Poker needs to be free of technology except to review hands afterward. If not, the technology will become so outrageous we're all going to be playing vs transhuman robots.
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Old 06-15-2015, 03:48 PM   #796
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by king acehole View Post
In this thread we have two groups:

1. Arguing to preserve their bottom line at the expense of others.
2. Arguing that we must make changes that will improve conditions and slow down the impending death of online poker.

Everyone(myself included) that uses a HUD is in violation of the spirit of the game. Just as the guy in the live casino is angle-shooting when he asks the dealer to see someones cards after the other player mucks. If he doesn't suspect his opponent of cheating, the reason to see the players cards is illegitimate, and thus he is exploiting a loophole and in fact cheating the other player. If someone asks me to see my mucked hand live, I make a big deal about them accusing me of cheating. "Who am I colluding with? What is your evidence, call the floor!" Most people are unaware of this nuance and card rooms could care less, but people who ask to see mucked cards for personal info are cheats.

Pokerstars let's us see cards after showdown for the same reason they do at B&M rooms; to prevent cheats. We HUD users are exploiting a loop-hole, using data that is made available to catch cheaters, for personal advantage. In the short term this helped some players and Stars quite a bit. But now we've gone to far and the games are getting destroyed.

Making the mucked cards immediately viewable to all is a Pandora's Box that needs to be closed.

Do you want play poker on a computer against people?
Or do you want to play poker against people with the aid of computer assistance?

Thanks Skier, for being honest in a matter that will clearly affect your bottom line.
Nailed it.

While seeing mucked cards helps me vs my regular opponents immensely and I'd hate it if I couldn't have access to this, it shouldn't be allowed. ACR gets this right at least.

One group is so invested in their software that allows them to 12-24 table and make massive rakeback that they'll argue against no matter what even if they know deep down its terrible for the game.
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Old 06-15-2015, 04:04 PM   #797
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Funny how this thread has gone from drawing new lines for what is acceptable for 3rd party software to ban all HUDs Stars banning all HUDs, good idea! This would end their monopoly without doubt in the blink of an eye.
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Old 06-15-2015, 04:05 PM   #798
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerIvey View Post
Yeah but if you play live game, you can write too stats of your opennent? How many barrels he play or when he folds on riverbet...these stats are available for all.... NC dont say to me call/fold/raise only give me stats. In this case...if nc should be ban, than HM2 too ....lol...dont understand this point.
Yeah, in a live game you can write the stats of your opponent, I'm not sure what that has got to do with anything though.

Online, you play a lot of tables, you have literally 0% chance of observing the vast amount of information that your HUD is displaying for you. Therefore a sotware aid is hugely influencing the game state and is resulting in people being given the chance to play almost perfectly in situations when left to their own devices without a software aid they wouldn't have a notion what to do.

It's not cheating, not even close because it is within the rules, but that doesn't mean it is fair.
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Old 06-15-2015, 04:19 PM   #799
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Pokerstars have known about datamining going on for ages but how much has been done to stop it. Is it really so hard to work with hm/pokertracker to work out ways to see if people are using hand samples on players they could not have had from their own play. Need to stop staking groups involved in sharing hands as well as the sites that sell hand histories.

I never really heard from pokerstars that the mtt ghosting problem was solved either.

I'd have no problem with restrictions on how complex the hud can be or the hud only appears vs players who are likely to be regs but there are current rules that seem to be broken without much being done so whatever rules are decided I would like to know they will/could be enforced for all.

Would be good if there was a real risk for cheaters but with a large global player pool cheaters in many parts of the world know that the worst that will ever happen is they are banned until they get new id and whatever is in their account is taken. When large amounts are stolen like in the recent plo bot scandal there needs to be the risk of a criminal record and jail time but I cant imagine that ever happening in russia/belarus/china etc.
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Old 06-15-2015, 04:21 PM   #800
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by raidalot View Post
I don't entirely understand your point. I think it's perfectly sustainable for me to argue that it is fair that players put different amounts of effort into learning and improving their game whilst believing that in-game tools which provide a major advantage are unfair. I think it is perfectly fair that a more skilled player (of any game) should have a greater chance to win. However, a HUD-user and a non-HUD player are in effect playing the game by substantially different rules, which I believe is unfair.

Compare to chess. It's fair that some players have an advantage through greater skills and experience but not fair that one player uses advanced chess software (highlighting his opponents past moves/weaknesses for example) to help him in-game vs a player who does not.
what "major advantage" are u talking about? no one will improve his game just by adding hud. without skill it's useless. and when there is skill it just helps to multitable. it is just more comfortable representation of notes. instead of tons of words u have numbers, which doesn't give u a right decision itself. so, the only thing it would change - drop down the volume significally, regulars will focus on bumhunting much more, recr. players will lose the same way. ecology is not only about recs. nowadays it more about regs vs regs.

in chess players don't multitable. and on top level players study each other enough to need no clues. it is like u will be able to analize your hand history with the same software and it will give the same info that u can note in pokerstars client.

Last edited by iamblackornot; 06-15-2015 at 04:27 PM. Reason: adding
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