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Old 06-15-2015, 12:18 PM   #751
Malefiicus
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by raidalot View Post
Item 1
Disagree. The PS client should incorporate (or offer the option of) any game based data that is allowed so that all players should have equal access.

Item 2
Agreed to the extent this simply replicates looking at a book/printed chart (as long as there is nothing which facilitates lookup based on particular parameters).

Item 3
Strongly disagree. Such tools, notably HUDs, are different in nature to the others listed in that they provide:

(a) a major advantage to the player (anyone who disagrees doesn't understand poker)
(b) an advantage which can't be replicated by limited effort
(c) opponent-specific data
(d) large amounts of data (encapsulated)
(e) data which goes well beyond the memory capacity and data-collation skills of humans

Each of these are undesirable aspects imo. In addition, HUDs:

- act as a platform for even greater advantages to those willing and able to tailor them or use add-ons
- facilitate cheating, notably through use of hand histories acquired through sharing/trading and through cheating add-ons
- provide potential assistance/inputs to bots
- are seen as unfair by casual players
- are in fact unfair
- could generate very bad publicity for the game
- help kill the fish too quickly for a healthy eco-system
- generate a software war rather than skill battle
- fundamentally change the nature of the game (I prefer playing something approximating the game called poker rather than the game of gathering and interpreting large volumes of stats and chasing round for the latest add-ons etc)

Allowing this category also makes it impractical to draw a clear line on what exactly is allowed.

Item 4
Agreed to the extent those act solely as convenience devices. Would prefer they were offered as options on the client but meh.

My preference
Add all allowed features into the client and ban all external in-game software. Kill the problem at its root (through eg sn changes, anonymous tables, limiting provision of hh) as enforcement otherwise too problematic. Also ban anything which gives the player seating advantages over others. Announce the decisions now and implement from 1 Jan 2016.
I agree with all of this, if you agree with it as well, you should probably quote it rather than allow silently agree with it. That way your opinion is counted.
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Old 06-15-2015, 12:23 PM   #752
devera
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by gmiko View Post
HUD changes from villain to villain? Wow. You are right, we should all have random static numbers that are not connected to the villain showing up.

Why do I even reply to you.
In other words, what you're trying to say with your (yet again) lame ass sarcasm is that we should stop trying to profile the others at the table, since there's a cool piece of software that can do all that for us, adequately filtering through all the data so we can click them buttons. And I'm the ape, right? Why bother looking at the same 40-50 "static numbers" you have on all villains and bother to come up with a game plan, when XYZ software can spare you the trouble and only display you the key bits, right? Like I said, I'm not a "purist" striving for hud-less online poker, since I do use a hud (my ape HUD over 60 stats on it, btw, a lot of which have no meaning for certain villains) but I'd much rather be closer to a purist than a bot (or cybot) that doesn't even makes the effort of interpreting the data.

If I start using the badges, my HUD will get way smaller and easier to read, I will then be able to incorporate more info and my game plan will be much clearer in a LOT of spots. I do not advocate against these sort of villain specific huds because I don't know how to take advantage of it. But because I feel it takes away a big part of what a real poker player should do and should be. And because I know it takes us closer to a point where, frankly, none of us want to get - "no money to be made in poker, now everyone really plays GTO with super advanced villain-tailored huds".

Like I said (and, oddly enough, like you said also), if someone has a truly static superhud with 100 numbers on it and 20 pop-ups with 100 numbers each and if he can derive a game plan out of those on the spot, good for him! But don't let software get so advanced that he can instantly know he can xr me on A/Q/T high flops after I 3bet him in BTN vs CO, for example, just by seeing he has a little A/Q/T icon up in the hud he has on me. Or do you really think this sort of "features" are not on the way? I really don't think you're that naive.
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Old 06-15-2015, 12:48 PM   #753
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by devera View Post
Like I said (and, oddly enough, like you said also), if someone has a truly static superhud with 100 numbers on it and 20 pop-ups with 100 numbers each and if he can derive a game plan out of those on the spot, good for him! But don't let software get so advanced that he can instantly know he can xr me on A/Q/T high flops after I 3bet him in BTN vs CO, for example, just by seeing he has a little A/Q/T icon up in the hud he has on me. Or do you really think this sort of "features" are not on the way? I really don't think you're that naive.
First paragraph lacks logic reasoning and rehashes the same lies and misinformation and misunderstanding as before so no point in replying to that.

Second one - no one cares what you want. Facts are important. And consequences. Your emotional needs and wants - no one cares about, really.

Third - Unless you send the villain your entire database with millions of hands with all hole cards shown, even if he had such a tool available, he would not have enough information to use it because he could never get the sample size needed. So your concerns are pointless. And if you played great poker, he couldn't exploit you even if he had all your hands and a super computer.

You see, it's not your anti hud views that make me talk to you specifically differently than with normal people. It's the fact that you are acting like an ass.hole, talking about your emotional needs instead of what is good for poker, imagining things and spreading lies and misinformation. And all that with 0 arguments for how and why would games get better if there was no HUDs, and how would that benefit the poker economy and the poker site financially. So I am finished discussing with you, I promise myself. And that includes other fake accounts you have. So don't even bother.
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Old 06-15-2015, 12:57 PM   #754
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by raikkonen3 View Post
Is this soccer player allowed to use robot parts to replace his human body while playing?

Notecaddy isn't training people, it's telling them critical information (that all but makes up their decision) in-game. It can still be accessed when you're not playing, so it's still 'training' you, it just wouldn't be assisting you while playing. Your analogy is completely wrong.
My analogy is completely right, his definition of cheating is completely wrong. Because i was answering a specific statement in case you didn't notice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by raikkonen3 View Post
Cheating = Having an unfair advantage in a competitive game verses other people IS CHEATING.
In regard of his definition of cheating, Lionel Messi is a cheater.
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Old 06-15-2015, 12:59 PM   #755
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Years ago game was based on exploiting more common leaks like high fold vs 3-bet or vs C-bet. Now at day almost everyone has fold vs 3-bet 60% and fold vs postflop C-bets around 35-40% and there is not common leaks to exploit with common stats. New HUDs show more specific stats and spots to exploit and it looks like many anti-NC people is not against this but badges systems only.

The issue is that badge system is not breaking current nor new ant-dynamic advice rules. Why? because if it is something you could do by looking at a huge amount of stats in your HUD/pop ups, and if what the software tool does is to help you do the same faster in order to play more tables, it is allowed.
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Old 06-15-2015, 01:00 PM   #756
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

In that statement "unfair" is a critical word. He would obviously argue that Messi has no "unfair" advantage, however if he was under the influence of steroids then that is an unfair advantage (which is banned in most sports).
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Old 06-15-2015, 01:04 PM   #757
KDash
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by raikkonen3 View Post
In that statement "unfair" is a critical word. He would obviously argue that Messi has no "unfair" advantage, however if he was under the influence of steroids then that is an unfair advantage (which is banned in most sports).
Steroids are against the rules. HUDs are not.
Steroids mess up with the health of the one who uses it. HUDs don't.
Steroids don't involve any skills. HUDs do.
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Old 06-15-2015, 01:11 PM   #758
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

messi got drugged early in his career (growth hormons iirc). they found a doctor testifying he had an extraordinary condition causing him to be smaller and weaker than expected.
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Old 06-15-2015, 01:13 PM   #759
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by mme View Post
messi got drugged early in his career (growth hormons iirc). they found a doctor testifying he had an extraordinary condition causing him to be smaller and weaker than expected.
Haha good point
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Old 06-15-2015, 01:14 PM   #760
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by KDash View Post
Steroids are against the rules. HUDs are not.
Steroids mess up with the health of the one who uses it. HUDs don't.
Steroids don't involve any skills. HUDs do.
We're not arguing about HUDs though are we?
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Old 06-15-2015, 01:15 PM   #761
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by gmiko View Post
pure stupidity expressed repeatedly.
I'm saying I use an over 60 stats HUD, you're asking me to say how would games benefit from banning the huds, when I specifically say I'm pro hud, as long as they are pure static. Ok, you really showed your colors there

As for your point about "millions of hands" - such an advanced tool would not need your millions of hands with shown hole cards. If you 3bet 10% in BTN vs CO an add-on on steroids (which I'm sure is on the way, at least conceptually) would just compute that 10% range, cross-reference it with the hands you went to SD with and slap a flopzilla-like computation on your ass and then bam!, a little note saying a villain with 10% polarized (or liniar) 3bet range in BU vs CO is easily exploitable on A/Q/T high flops by xr-ing or whatever other exploits it can derive the second you sit down at a table.

And then again, this is just an example of what can come up down the road. And you're clinging on it like it's the only one, telling me why it's not possible? I'm just inferring from how the poker software has develop in the past few years, as I really doubt it will all just come to an abrupt stop by itself. Who the fk would have imagined 10 years ago we would have a hud that could INSTANTLY show us villain is exploitable with a stab on turn+river after missed cbet in 3bet pot oop?

Your judgement about what can and cannot be done only spans till the end of the day. While I'm talking about some tomorrow that will for sure hit us, if we just sit with our arms crossed. Make an effort to step, at leat for a bit, out of your own little box and think long term. You are a poker player after all, aren't you? Oh wait...
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Old 06-15-2015, 01:18 PM   #762
iamblackornot
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

in terms of football it sounds like "i dont want to wear boots, so lets ban it, cause it gives so much advantage, so that if u couldn't shoot precisely before, u become a sniper after"
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Old 06-15-2015, 01:19 PM   #763
heathen1
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by piet_evil View Post
This thread got to be 100% evidence that notecaddy has to be banned. Why do people defend notecaddy that much ?
Because its a big advantage vs regs which are not using it and because they got an e- mail which told them to come and defend it.
The arguments of the notecaddy shills are a joke,. You say notecaddy only does things you could do yourself with a hud, but you do not do it and you would not have that information if there werent this unfair tool that tells you how your fellow reg opponent plays in certain spots.
Of course it is not a level playing field, most regs do not want to pay hundred of Dollars for tools to compete in the games.
And its just way less fun and challenging to use programms like that and stop thinking for yourself.
So please pokerstars try to stop people from getting an unfair advantage.
This man get's it.
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Old 06-15-2015, 01:25 PM   #764
KDash
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by iamblackornot View Post
in terms of football it sounds like "i dont want to wear boots, so lets ban it, cause it gives so much advantage, so that if u couldn't shoot precisely before, u become a sniper after"
+1
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Old 06-15-2015, 01:26 PM   #765
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by bhoylegend View Post
1. Do you not think the reason why you have to spend so much time constructing and learning about how to use your HUDs etc is because everyone else is now using them? HUDs are the cause of the game getting tougher because the average player is now able to avail of stats that they were never going to pick up on their own because they didn't have the ethic or natural ability. It narrows the gap between top and bottom so that everyone loses more to the rake than would otherwise be the case. Which is why Stars won't have the balls to do anything about them.
I dont really need a HUD to beat a Recreational player, most of them are probably just very bad, make poor decisions and end up losing money in the long run, but is about other Regs as we are constantly trying to get ahead of the curve, also if we try to make a living out of this we need to play some volume and that is imposible without a HUD, but recreational players dont really care about playing tons of volume like we do.
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Old 06-15-2015, 01:28 PM   #766
KDash
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Steroids are against the rules. HUDs are not.
Steroids mess up with the health of the one who uses it. HUDs don't.
Steroids don't involve any skills. HUDs do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by raikkonen3 View Post
We're not arguing about HUDs though are we?

Please replace "HUDs" by "NC" in my previous statement.
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Old 06-15-2015, 01:28 PM   #767
heathen1
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by raidalot View Post
Item 1
Disagree. The PS client should incorporate (or offer the option of) any game based data that is allowed so that all players should have equal access.

Item 2
Agreed to the extent this simply replicates looking at a book/printed chart (as long as there is nothing which facilitates lookup based on particular parameters).

Item 3
Strongly disagree. Such tools, notably HUDs, are different in nature to the others listed in that they provide:

(a) a major advantage to the player (anyone who disagrees doesn't understand poker)
(b) an advantage which can't be replicated by limited effort
(c) opponent-specific data
(d) large amounts of data (encapsulated)
(e) data which goes well beyond the memory capacity and data-collation skills of humans

Each of these are undesirable aspects imo. In addition, HUDs:

- act as a platform for even greater advantages to those willing and able to tailor them or use add-ons
- facilitate cheating, notably through use of hand histories acquired through sharing/trading and through cheating add-ons
- provide potential assistance/inputs to bots
- are seen as unfair by casual players
- are in fact unfair
- could generate very bad publicity for the game
- help kill the fish too quickly for a healthy eco-system
- generate a software war rather than skill battle
- fundamentally change the nature of the game (I prefer playing something approximating the game called poker rather than the game of gathering and interpreting large volumes of stats and chasing round for the latest add-ons etc)

Allowing this category also makes it impractical to draw a clear line on what exactly is allowed.

Item 4
Agreed to the extent those act solely as convenience devices. Would prefer they were offered as options on the client but meh.

My preference
Add all allowed features into the client and ban all external in-game software. Kill the problem at its root (through eg sn changes, anonymous tables, limiting provision of hh) as enforcement otherwise too problematic. Also ban anything which gives the player seating advantages over others. Announce the decisions now and implement from 1 Jan 2016.
I agree 100% with this.
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Old 06-15-2015, 01:29 PM   #768
iamblackornot
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by devera View Post
I'm saying I use an over 60 stats HUD, you're asking me to say how would games benefit from banning the huds, when I specifically say I'm pro hud, as long as they are pure static. Ok, you really showed your colors there

As for your point about "millions of hands" - such an advanced tool would not need your millions of hands with shown hole cards. If you 3bet 10% in BTN vs CO an add-on on steroids (which I'm sure is on the way, at least conceptually) would just compute that 10% range, cross-reference it with the hands you went to SD with and slap a flopzilla-like computation on your ass and then bam!, a little note saying a villain with 10% polarized (or liniar) 3bet range in BU vs CO is easily exploitable on A/Q/T high flops by xr-ing or whatever other exploits it can derive the second you sit down at a table.

And then again, this is just an example of what can come up down the road. And you're clinging on it like it's the only one, telling me why it's not possible? I'm just inferring from how the poker software has develop in the past few years, as I really doubt it will all just come to an abrupt stop by itself. Who the fk would have imagined 10 years ago we would have a hud that could INSTANTLY show us villain is exploitable with a stab on turn+river after missed cbet in 3bet pot oop?

Your judgement about what can and cannot be done only spans till the end of the day. While I'm talking about some tomorrow that will for sure hit us, if we just sit with our arms crossed. Make an effort to step, at leat for a bit, out of your own little box and think long term. You are a poker player after all, aren't you? Oh wait...
who the fk prevents u from changing your play so that u would exploit the guy who tries to exploit u by using software?? this software is the reason why poker is developing recently, otherwise it would stay in dark ages. and recr. players would still lose money quickly, cause u don't need soft to exploit that kind of guys who in general have the same bunch of leaks. these guys would ask for prohibiting poker education, returning lost money, using brain and etc.
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Old 06-15-2015, 01:32 PM   #769
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

enable sn changes to help a little who is getting f... by all these official and unofficial tools

the guys who made these bots have the ability to create another software and another accounts, or you guys think they are going to stop? lol
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Old 06-15-2015, 01:34 PM   #770
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

hasta la vista NOTECADDY

does anyone have an estimated timeframe for when nc will be banned?

Last edited by heathen1; 06-15-2015 at 01:39 PM.
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Old 06-15-2015, 01:34 PM   #771
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by KDash View Post
Steroids are against the rules. HUDs are not.
Steroids mess up with the health of the one who uses it. HUDs don't.
Steroids don't involve any skills. HUDs do.




Please replace "HUDs" by "NC" in my previous statement.
I'm not quite sure why I'm replying to this but here goes...

First statement: well yes of course they're not but we're debating that matter. Stating the current situation is no defence of NC.

Second statement: Want to source that claim? Regardless, of course NC doesn't damage someones health as poker is a mental game so advantage is not gained through physical means.

Third statement: Some of the stats most certainly don't though, software telling me that this guy is bluffing 80% of the time when betting 1/2 pot is not hard to use at all. Additionally, creating a successful bot is incredibly difficult but those are not allowed - simply stating that something requires a skill does not mean it should be allowed in the game of online poker.
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Old 06-15-2015, 01:37 PM   #772
iamblackornot
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
(a) a major advantage to the player (anyone who disagrees doesn't understand poker)
Quote:
- help kill the fish too quickly for a healthy eco-system
these 2 point are nonsense and the reason why recr. players are moaning. are u a regular? if yes, mb u would stop working on your game, make analysis of your hands, discuss poker strategies with other regs???? cause it's unfair! recr. players dont do that, they come here to enjoy poker, not to play with a poker geek. moreover, they would like u to lick their asses while u play with them at the tables.
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Old 06-15-2015, 01:43 PM   #773
KDash
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by raikkonen3 View Post
Second statement: Want to source that claim?
That one statment alone is enough to sum up that you are certainly not being objective, and that you don't care about what's is true or not.

"software telling me that this guy is bluffing 80% of the time when betting 1/2 pot is not hard to use at all"

Then go ahead, buy NC and go make millions because that sounds so easy when i read your posts. And i am sure that since you are so aware of its effect on games and how huge of a cheat it is, you have already bought it and already made millions out of it. But now for some reasons you want to get it banned.

And after comparing NC to steroids, now you compare it to bots...What's next ? Compare it to AIDS ?

Once your bot is created, you can just unleash it and it is automatically going to ruin the poker economy without needing any human assistance anymore. Once it's created, it's 100% no skill s/w, which can be reproduced again and again.

But as i said, you are certainly not being objective...

Last edited by KDash; 06-15-2015 at 01:52 PM.
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Old 06-15-2015, 01:45 PM   #774
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Still not seeing a source, surely if it's such an obvious correct statement then you'll be able to supply a medical journal/article or something of that nature supporting your claim.
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Old 06-15-2015, 01:51 PM   #775
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

http://www.flushdraw.net/news/misc/p...oftware-rules/

Added Day, “As a result, we are strongly considering changing our current policies… .”
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