Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Internet Poker Discussions of Internet poker venues, including RB & bonuses.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-11-2015, 02:22 PM   #51
Richas
veteran
 
Richas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: On the learning curve
Posts: 3,440
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by skier_5 View Post
It appears there is a popup.



I'm a bit unclear as to what your proposal is? How do you want to decide if reference material is or is not ok?
No popups, no drill down by link that is street specific. You get the HUD display absolutely fixed.

Yes this is a deliberate attempt to reduce the power of the software whilst still allowing customised HUD displays.

I also hate the badges with preprogrammed action advice but banning them was not part of this proposal.
Richas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 02:32 PM   #52
skier_5
Pooh-Bah
 
skier_5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: London
Posts: 5,457
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richas View Post
No popups, no drill down by link that is street specific. You get the HUD display absolutely fixed.

Yes this is a deliberate attempt to reduce the power of the software whilst still allowing customised HUD displays.

I also hate the badges with preprogrammed action advice but banning them was not part of this proposal.
What about multiple application windows, or tabs in a browser for example?
skier_5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 02:34 PM   #53
poorme
grinder
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 506
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by 31Alpha View Post
100% behind this... new players and fish are immediately attacked and few stick around for long... the higher limits have few rec players as they lose money two quick -they do not invest in software... this is a step towards making the game more on the fair side... now -PLS PLS GET RID OF SEATING SCRIPTS

buying $300-1000 or more of software should not be basic prerequisite to playing poker on stars...

+1
poorme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 02:37 PM   #54
poorme
grinder
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 506
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeanchris View Post
Ban everything.

Hud, hem, pokertracker, script, table ninja, everything.

That would be one of the best decision for the future of online poker and bringing back online poker closer to a "real" poker game.

It's also really good for recreational player.
+1
poorme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 02:38 PM   #55
31Alpha
centurion
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 132
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

additional thought - any software allowed should be available to the masses... NO software should be allowed where only a select few are chosen or get to use it... no software should be allowed whereby the software owner gets a % of monies won
31Alpha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 02:39 PM   #56
skier_5
Pooh-Bah
 
skier_5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: London
Posts: 5,457
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by 31Alpha View Post
are these not just charts?
he is talking about software running while you are playing
The software in question is composed of 2 parts
1) There is an after the hand analysis which the user does not see until the hand is completed.

2) There is an efficient chart retrieval tool using voice commands. My charts are pretty good, and as a result of backlash from the husng community Pokerstars is considering the changes in the OP. They have stated in the OP that a change they would like to make is to disallow 'reference material which is not basic in nature'. I'm trying to understand the intentions and definitions in that wording. I think that it's quite difficult to hold a discussion on this topic without having a clear picture of what the intention is. I think above all, it's important that any changes are not vague at all which the proposed wordings in the OP are.
skier_5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 02:40 PM   #57
Richas
veteran
 
Richas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: On the learning curve
Posts: 3,440
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by skier_5 View Post
What about multiple application windows, or tabs in a browser for example?
Hard to prevent a web browser pointing elsewhere but if you can break the link to the HUD it becomes fairly impractical to multitable whilst seeking player data in a browser.

No third party tabs or web browser launched from the client or the HUD - just what all get via the client and a static HUD (with the data audited by Stars).
Richas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 02:41 PM   #58
Tchor85
stranger
 
Tchor85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Czech republic
Posts: 5
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

great, good news.
Tchor85 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 02:42 PM   #59
MX210
banned
 
MX210's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 401
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

How about banning anyone who tries to tip toe around the legality line? That way we have completely legal programs running and not many guys like skier trying to push the limits for fear of getting banned. Any normal player has nothing to be afraid of with a rule like this one.

Then we'll see how these guys like keeping 200k on shady sites that accept their programs.
MX210 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 02:46 PM   #60
skier_5
Pooh-Bah
 
skier_5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: London
Posts: 5,457
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richas View Post
Hard to prevent a web browser pointing elsewhere but if you can break the link to the HUD it becomes fairly impractical to multitable whilst seeking player data in a browser.

No third party tabs or web browser launched from the client or the HUD - just what all get via the client and a static HUD (with the data audited by Stars).
Yes it is. If I understand correctly, it wouldn't be a problem to open a bookmark in my browser using the voice control available in the chrome web store? https://chrome.google.com/webstore/d...ockgcmjh?hl=en
skier_5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 02:49 PM   #61
Lusky
centurion
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Lake Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 148
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeanchris View Post
Ban everything.

Hud, hem, pokertracker, script, table ninja, everything.

That would be one of the best decision for the future of online poker and bringing back online poker closer to a "real" poker game.

It's also really good for recreational player.
+-
Lusky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 02:53 PM   #62
jiinkopp
centurion
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 139
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeanchris View Post
Ban everything.

Hud, hem, pokertracker, script, table ninja, everything.

That would be one of the best decision for the future of online poker and bringing back online poker closer to a "real" poker game.

It's also really good for recreational player.
It is a step in the right direction, but +1 to the above...
Play the game the way it was meant to be played.
jiinkopp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 02:54 PM   #63
MX210
banned
 
MX210's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 401
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by jiinkopp View Post
It is a step in the right direction, but +1 to the above...
Play the game the way it was meant to be played.
This would absolutely require a PTR ran by the network itself with data available for everyone. Otherwise, the players can't find any cheats.
MX210 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 02:57 PM   #64
Richas
veteran
 
Richas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: On the learning curve
Posts: 3,440
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by skier_5 View Post
Yes it is. If I understand correctly, it wouldn't be a problem to open a bookmark in my browser using the voice control available in the chrome web store? https://chrome.google.com/webstore/d...ockgcmjh?hl=en
Assuming you can turn a database into a set of voice recognised data summaries then yep, you can access additional information. Unfortunately this means that Stars would need to step up on its spyware to enforce a ban on the fairly vague "basic" " information or advice rule.

There are always ways around rules, protecting game integrity means making them harder, catching some an having suitable sanctions for those deliberately choosing to break the rules (cheat).

One concern I had here was the idea of trying to define basic so instead I went for limiting the display and dynamism of the authorised s/w but not seeking to define say unfair badges that offer in game advice.

It is a minefield but longer term it is likely to mean closer site and s/w supplier coopertion to allow easier s/w identification and data checking. Ultimately moving to a authorised or site approved s/w list and using the TOS to outlaw the rest.
Richas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 02:58 PM   #65
worried
banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 527
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

what jeanchris said. Ban it all. This is a good start though
worried is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 03:03 PM   #66
KrachBummEnte
grinder
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 515
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

yes to the changes.

+1 to ban everything
KrachBummEnte is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 03:07 PM   #67
Jafeeio
journeyman
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 263
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Ban it all and stop promoting games that can be solved with a chart.
Jafeeio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 03:08 PM   #68
TheDefiniteArticle
Indecisive
 
TheDefiniteArticle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Polarizing my folding range
Posts: 13,481
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by skier_5 View Post
Yes it is. If I understand correctly, it wouldn't be a problem to open a bookmark in my browser using the voice control available in the chrome web store? https://chrome.google.com/webstore/d...ockgcmjh?hl=en
This seems much more onerous than what I understand yours does. And if/once it is possible and set up, I don't see a problem with banning browsers while playing.
TheDefiniteArticle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 03:08 PM   #69
DarkMattersMan
adept
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 961
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by mullion View Post
Are you emailing your player base with the same question?

I imagine most of the stars player base do not read these forums, and a higher than average percentage of players from 2+2 would like not to have rule changes.
+100000000

Please email ALL of your player base. I suspect a large proportion of them have no idea how badly they are being fleeced and exploited by these advantage taking external softwares.

For me personally I would like to see ALL of the softwares banned. Time to make the playing field even for a change. Then, just maybe, we may start to see online poker flourish again.
DarkMattersMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 03:11 PM   #70
skier_5
Pooh-Bah
 
skier_5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: London
Posts: 5,457
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richas View Post
Assuming you can turn a database into a set of voice recognised data summaries then yep, you can access additional information. Unfortunately this means that Stars would need to step up on its spyware to enforce a ban on the fairly vague "basic" " information or advice rule.

There are always ways around rules, protecting game integrity means making them harder, catching some an having suitable sanctions for those deliberately choosing to break the rules (cheat).

One concern I had here was the idea of trying to define basic so instead I went for limiting the display and dynamism of the authorised s/w but not seeking to define say unfair badges that offer in game advice.

It is a minefield but longer term it is likely to mean closer site and s/w supplier coopertion to allow easier s/w identification and data checking. Ultimately moving to a authorised or site approved s/w list and using the TOS to outlaw the rest.
I was asking if that would be allowed under your proposed system and was trying to illustrate that the means to accessing more data can be done with benign and commodity software completely unrelated to poker. I don't think stepping up spyware or restrictions is going to help. Any competent cheater will simply use another machine or some undetectable method and this kind of approach will do nothing but tilt the playing field even more for people willing to break the rules while breaching the privacy of millions of honest users. I do completely agree that defining basic is problematic though.
skier_5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 03:12 PM   #71
Richas
veteran
 
Richas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: On the learning curve
Posts: 3,440
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDefiniteArticle View Post
This seems much more onerous than what I understand yours does. And if/once it is possible and set up, I don't see a problem with banning browsers while playing.
Bit harsh on the porn industry plus there is no reason it would need to be on the same box so banning web browsing would not solve the issue of someone getting info.

Keeping it out of the client/HUD produces a barrier, an inconvenience. The web browser ban for one specific idea to get around the rules does not really make that inconvenience a lot higher for the cheat but it would be a pain for all recs/regs.
Richas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 03:20 PM   #72
Aces123123
adept
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 759
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I don't see any reason to change the rules. If you ban some software the only ones who get hurt are the players that follow the TOS. Banning charts and chart retrieving programs seems really stupid, what is stopping someone from having the charts on paper or a chart retrieval program on another computer?

No this isn't coming from some mass tabling pro, I have Holdem Manager but I hardly ever use it.
Aces123123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 03:29 PM   #73
DarkMattersMan
adept
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 961
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aces123123 View Post
I don't see any reason to change the rules. If you ban some software the only ones who get hurt are the players that follow the TOS. Banning charts and chart retrieving programs seems really stupid, what is stopping someone from having the charts on paper or a chart retrieval program on another computer?

No this isn't coming from some mass tabling pro, I have Holdem Manager but I hardly ever use it.
Tuff **** imo. And people, please stop throwing out the argument that 'omg, if you ban our cheating software it will allow one or two Russian wizzkids botters to have unfair advantages over the rest of us'
(and yes, having an unfair advantage over other players in a competitive game IS CHEATING)

Fact is anybody signing up in 2015 will only be made aware of these huds by coming to 2+2 or P5's etc. tens of thousands, probably alot more that play for years probably still dont know they are being exploited.
Hell, even I came to learn of huds only in 2012 after visiting a casino and bragging about my first biggest win. A player who is a well known stars reg doubted me because I told him I never heard of such softwares.
I still dont use them and I think they have destroyed the game.

I will come back to Pokerstars full time if and when this new change is implemented.
DarkMattersMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 03:29 PM   #74
VP$IP
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
VP$IP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Zero Millions
Posts: 6,841
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by skier_5 View Post
Any competent cheater will simply use another machine or some undetectable method
I agree. So it is time to limit the amount of information that can be obtained from the game by observers
  • The pixel display accessible to observers should be frequently varied to make screen scraping prone to errors
  • The dealer chat should be very terse for non-players
  • Hand history should be for players only
VP$IP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 03:29 PM   #75
kaby
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
kaby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: captain of team fold
Posts: 6,220
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

i wonder how skier feels about mailing stars now

other than that, as expected.. an arbitrary and unenforceable ban. i generally know who i'm playing and can deny action so w/e, but i wonder if this is going to make things better for ssnl/msnl regs not willing to cheat. i doubt it

i still say props to skier for putting in the work and improving our knowledge of poker. i hope he designs an efficient binder lookup algo (cue richas surprise house raids suggestion - edit this was a bit harsh. while i think you are completely wrong on this specific topic everything else you've done for uk & online poker has been great. thanks.)

Last edited by kaby; 06-11-2015 at 03:44 PM.
kaby is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:29 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online