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Old 06-15-2015, 08:50 AM   #701
4-Star General
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Skier, sry but it's kinda funny you are posting here, regarding banning software, when you have a program that cannot be banned
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Old 06-15-2015, 08:52 AM   #702
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by gmiko View Post
Ok, let's imagine it is possible to ban notecaddy notes for everyone and ban using it in play and decide where is the line which stat should be ok and which shouldn't (fantasy world). What is stopping you to write notecaddy notes in the NOTES, be it in HEM or in Pokerstars software? Is the next step removal of notes because it is not human to be able to remember every single note you have ever written?
This is exactly the problem with how things are right now. You have one set of standard for charts and all things which might influence hands later in a session which are not HUDS and then another one for HUDS (and seemingly, notes). These things will just be moved to HUDs and notes if that stays the same. I agree that enforcement is an issue (cue the NoteCaddy print export feature) and I'm not sure what the answer is. However, if these are deemed a problem, and a solution must be made, then a workable solution is required which is applied fairly. I agree that controlling this kind of thing is more or less futile, which is why I brought forward no in session hand histories as a compromise.
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Old 06-15-2015, 08:57 AM   #703
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by 4-Star General View Post
Skier, sry but it's kinda funny you are posting here, regarding banning software, when you have a program that cannot be banned
I do have believe that the effort to deal with the issues in this thread would be better directed at the issue of bots, human assisted playing devices, and collusion. These things are only going to become more and more problematic and I think diverting resources from that task risks allowing those malicious actors to pull ahead. However, I do plan on following any rules which Pokerstars makes, so if rules must be changed and resources diverted, I would like them to be sensible and ones that my opponents will have incentive to or be forced to follow as well.
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Old 06-15-2015, 08:57 AM   #704
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by skier_5 View Post
You're not using it dynamically. Instead of displaying a badge, you are displaying advice based on the frequencies presented (and this is a very simple example - what if you write a complicated logic statement which includes things like turn and river statistics which consider the various paths when you check and and when you bet, and what if said logic statement further considers the preflop range you have observed an opponent to have? And on and on..).
Again, I don't see the problem. You have limited time and limited space. If you can read a book in the couple of seconds you have to act, great, that is not forbidden and I'm jealous of your abilities but I don't see them as cheating. Also you can't write in the HUD anyway and notes don't work in pairs. You can't make a note that combines 2 stats and tells you what to do. That should be illegal and as far as I understand it, already is. It would surely be implemented in the software already if it was not.
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Old 06-15-2015, 09:01 AM   #705
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Richas View Post
First it's not about one product, it is about what a suite of measures, HUD, NC and more result in. I doubt that a big winner at decent stakes could be identified based on s/w alone (apart from the out and out bots or CyBots of PLO fame). At higher stakes the tools and decent knowledge are required to win (or mere superb talent).

Now I don't know what you mean by big money so let's look at big impact instead.

If we take the micros and have a look at Eastern Europe we have many new grinding players making what for them is big money and having a big impact. They use the HUD, add the NC and then add some illegal data to get the sample size of their opponents up to where NC has real power and a pretty ignorant newbie becomes a low level Cybot grinder making his daily wedge from it - without a great deal of poker knowledge or skill.

The impact is partly their financial drain on the ecosystem, partly the impact on game action by making it so slow, boring and nitty but the impact is churning through potential new players who basically stop adding to the poker ecosystem. In many ways I'm not really bothered how mid-high stakes regs keep adding a bit more software edge to their game, that's not the bit destroying poker - it is the bottom end where overly powerful HUDs, supplemented with various NC style bits and bobs and made worse by data cheating that the real damage is being done..

Now each one of those many many micro players using NC as part of their package to grind does a bit of damage, collectively they end up killing poker and collectively they are big winners.

Now maybe they start to learn and move up but the easier route is for them is to act like people that flog stuff door to door, recruit more, set them up, give them a bit of coaching in the s/w and then take a slice from them, run a team, a stable.

Reducing the power of the third party software by imposing better rules on what is allowed can slow this process. Stars can't really do it alone, they would need HUD supplier cooperation, need new technical standards and ultimately need to get regulation and legal powers behind those s/w limits to increase deterrents and criminalise the supply of illegal software.

We need to get sites the power to check what data is being used, to limit the dynamic capabilities of the software to tailor advice to specific players, streets, spots and that means lmiting the dynamic on screen capabilities of NC and getting the sites access to the HUD to check the version of s/w used and data used.

A way to check the data, a way to let the site capture what the HUD is displaying - all built in to the HUD. Use a HUD that cooperates with the site's integrity team, then multitable away. Go HUDless or use a HUD without that interface and face strict limits on your number of tables.

This is a war of attrition. The proposed changes from Stars are a start, a recognition of the problem that software has become too powerful but there is a huge amount more to do to find how to clip that capability and how to enforce the software rules.
Do you use NoteCaddy? Are you crushing your stake level with notecaddy?
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Old 06-15-2015, 09:04 AM   #706
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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This is exactly the problem with how things are right now. You have one set of standard for charts and all things which might influence hands later in a session which are not HUDS and then another one for HUDS (and seemingly, notes). These things will just be moved to HUDs and notes if that stays the same. I agree that enforcement is an issue (cue the NoteCaddy print export feature) and I'm not sure what the answer is. However, if these are deemed a problem, and a solution must be made, then a workable solution is required which is applied fairly. I agree that controlling this kind of thing is more or less futile, which is why I brought forward no in session hand histories as a compromise.
Yes, if they can't enforce the rule then don't make the rule. I don't know what your software does exactly but if they forbid you to use it, what is stopping you? From what I understand how your software works, they can't know if you are voice commanding charts on the other computer. So there is no point in forbiding you to use it because you will (probably) continue to do so anyway, yet some people (rare ones but still) will not just because there is a "rule" - and that is an unfair advantage vs them.

Charts and huds simply aren't the problem in online poker as of now (maybe some day they will be but that day has not yet come) and there are other issues that have to be dealt with. Think about forbiding stuff when the technology available and privacy laws will actually enable you to do so.
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Old 06-15-2015, 09:08 AM   #707
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by ElvanDalton View Post
Do you use NoteCaddy? Are you crushing your stake level with notecaddy?
No, I'm a rec and thanks to s/w mostly live not online.
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Old 06-15-2015, 09:14 AM   #708
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by gmiko View Post
Yes, if they can't enforce the rule then don't make the rule. I don't know what your software does exactly but if they forbid you to use it, what is stopping you? From what I understand how your software works, they can't know if you are voice commanding charts on the other computer. So there is no point in forbiding you to use it because you will (probably) continue to do so anyway, yet some people (rare ones but still) will not just because there is a "rule" - and that is an unfair advantage vs them.

Charts and huds simply aren't the problem in online poker as of now (maybe some day they will be but that day has not yet come) and there are other issues that have to be dealt with. Think about forbiding stuff when the technology available and privacy laws will actually enable you to do so.
You should be able to develop statistical techniques to compare stats across players, so if you share your strategy with anyone it becomes a lot easier to police. For better or for worse, I am one of those rare ones who would follow those rules and this is why I find it all troublesome. I will be on the receiving end of that unfair advantage you describe. It's frustrating because i think many of my opponents do use shared or data mined data as well. Apart from that, yes, it could be run on a separate computer without issues.

Once again, I concur. There are bigger fish to fry.
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Old 06-15-2015, 09:14 AM   #709
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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You can't use it dynamically based on actions on the table (the rules forbid it), so I don't see a problem with this. You can write what you wrote here on a sheet of paper.
The difference between simply writing this on a sheet of paper and having a software popping it up for your lazy brain, you sad Dr. House wannabe impersonator with your lame ass sarcasm, is that you'd have to "simply write" a few hundred of these simple rules on a few tens sheets of paper and browse through them all before choosing an action. Good luck doing that. Or, for that matter, have the HUD display them ALL to you so you can make the decision to act based on this or that stat or combination of stats.

Instead, you just want to skip the actual work and have the software filter through the hundreds of possible leaks, combine them for you into pairs or triples or n-tuplets so that it can just show you where to hit vs Villain 1, where to hit vs Villain 2 and so on. And I'd rather be labelled as an ape by a NC addict than be an NC addict that trembles at the possibility of having to use his brain more as opposed to using his CPU more.

If you can't understand that a HUD that changes structurally from one villain to the next in order to show what's the best game plan (instead of you figuring it out) is really stepping over a line, there's really no point in arguing. What's next? Super-huds with heatmaps that pop-up in order to show you how hard a 9% BTN vs UTG 3bettor with a polarized range hits a Q87 rainbow flop in order for you to decide if it's better to xf or xr your naked underpair of 2s. Yep, great live "analysis" on your part, son, now go make a vid about it so you can enlighten us all with your stellar judgment.

Last edited by devera; 06-15-2015 at 09:21 AM.
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Old 06-15-2015, 09:18 AM   #710
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by sixfour View Post
notecaddy devs see that stars may ban it
notecaddy sends mass email saying we're all going to be working at mcdonalds soon unless you come and moan on our behalf stars are going to affect YOUR bottom line, go to 2+2 and air "your views"
dozens of june 15 accounts ensue
Yes, but by now probably more than 10 people who got that email who feel trapped into buying software have come to say they agree with a ban.

It's true that recs can buy software but doing so is a big barrier to them playing - for the same reason Andrew West wrote elsewhere why models based on subscription instead of rake don't work because if recs don't play neither does any one else.

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This is not the way to approach the problem. As soon as you lock down the operating system, cheaters will move to a second computer or paper or w/e. This is an example of a level of enforcement which is going to be so over the top that the activity it is enforcing is not worthwhile anymore, and which will not have much effect in terms of enforcement. You do realise that someone could still intercept the monitor feed and screen scrape that way?
The above is why the top level, particularly HU is probably not saveable online and will only be played live in the future. Micros and small stakes - which rake a lot - are saveable though. If my small stakes 45 man has two players in it risking 2 year prison sentences by surreptititiously running advanced HUD software then it's still playable - if 40 out of 45 are doing it legally then it's not fun, it's work, and that's a hard sell.
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Old 06-15-2015, 09:18 AM   #711
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by skier_5 View Post
As evidenced by the last few weeks software is getting more and more powerful. To anyone not up to date, I built some software which allows the user to efficiently retrieve a specific chart using their voice (or mouse). I also have an after the hand analysis tool. My tools were originally cleared by Pokerstarsí security until the recent NVG thread[1]. The previous rule set allowed the user to manually reference static content and my tool has brought to light that if you wanted, you could do something like precompute a feasible solution space with something like ICMizer and then look it up while you play. Since it is static, it is currently OK. This can obviously become problematic with an efficient retrieval system ....
tl;dq

really interesting stuff and the perfect example, why a hasty ban (like many users wanted after the 'zomg skier has a bot' thread) isn't as simple or good. imo it even would be necessary to have some players in the HQ at the IOM to discuss this topic.
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Old 06-15-2015, 09:26 AM   #712
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

What i see from anti-NC here is like that "We have to not exploit everything because that is unfair against players that cant exploit much".I mean that NoteCaddy is cheap and for everyone,is that unfair?It is like you say "Do not be good, because i have not much brain or i dont care to be as good as you".
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Old 06-15-2015, 09:32 AM   #713
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Yes and no. The badge is created by NC and your NC package and most likely with datamined hands, and not you. The badge(s) shows for your opponents exploitable spots. You thereby have a chance at building that scenario, fx by floating and stabbing. It is similar to getting advice during the hand and more powerful. It is what I call cyborg poker.

Also remember in one of the first note caddy packages, one of the creators gave direct link with discount to purchase hand histories. Stars lost the datamining war. Datamining is very used by a lot of poker players - especially down at MSNL where cyborg poker IQ is stronger than winning reg poker IQ; and hand histories cost less to purchase.

Poker Stove has not been updated for years and no longer works. I use equilab once every couple of month. As for Steve Day mentioning poker stove in his original post, I am afraid it sadly shows how little Steve Day is updated with what add on software is for online poker.

Stars and iPoker are currently the toughest sites to play. I just checked my database. They are the only sites I am down in for 2015. With the combining of timing tells to pop up with badges in your HUD, I might need to rethink whether I want to still play in those games. And when they spread to the other sites, it might be wise to retire from online poker. And no, I am not whining about my losses, I am a big winner overall.
So you're saying because Stars hasn't fixed datamining problems that NoteCaddy should be restricted / banned? Datamining doesn't just help with NoteCaddy, it helps with any HUD to make it show more data. Because some people break the rules and datamine, and Stars hasn't been able to enforce that rule, shouldn't mean that NoteCaddy should be restricted since it does follow the rules.

The solution to this problem that I think you should be asking is, "How can Stars fix the datamining issue, so that the only data people can have are hands which have been played by themselves". It seems like there would be some solutions by changing the way the hand histories are written I would think.

Also by the way, I would guess NoteCaddy is still used by the majority of people who don't break the rules and datamine. It's not fair to say the notes and badges that appear are from datamined hands. Just because some people break the rules, doesn't mean the rest do.

Last edited by nostrakhan; 06-15-2015 at 09:38 AM.
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Old 06-15-2015, 09:36 AM   #714
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by devera View Post
The difference between simply writing this on a sheet of paper and having a software popping it up for your lazy brain, you sad Dr. House wannabe impersonator with your lame ass sarcasm, is that you'd have to "simply write" a few hundred of these simple rules on a few tens sheets of paper and browse through them all before choosing an action. Good luck doing that. Or, for that matter, have the HUD display them ALL to you so you can make the decision to act based on this or that stat or combination of stats.

Instead, you just want to skip the actual work and have the software filter through the hundreds of possible leaks, combine them for you into pairs or triples or n-tuplets so that it can just show you where to hit vs Villain 1, where to hit vs Villain 2 and so on. And I'd rather be labelled as an ape by a NC addict than be an NC addict that trembles at the possibility of having to use his brain more as opposed to using his CPU more.

If you can't understand that a HUD that changes structurally from one villain to the next in order to show what's the best game plan (instead of you figuring it out) is really stepping over a line, there's really no point in arguing. What's next? Super-huds with heatmaps that pop-up in order to show you how hard a 9% BTN vs UTG 3bettor with a polarized range hits a Q87 rainbow flop in order for you to decide if it's better to xf or xr your naked underpair of 2s. Yep, great live "analysis" on your part, son, now go make a vid about it so you can enlighten us all with your stellar judgment.
Again, HUD doesn't change based on action and you are making stuff up. Stop.

The last paragraph you wrote is just ridicilous. No program I know of has the ability to do that and it would be against the already existing TOS because it would need to scrape screen data AND combine various stats.

Just stop. You are not bringing anything to the discussion except misinformation, lies and incivility.
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Old 06-15-2015, 09:40 AM   #715
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Richas View Post
No, I'm a rec and thanks to s/w mostly live not online.
I mean, this is why I struggle to take your opinions on this seriously for the most part. Software is one of the things which rids online poker of all the problems of live poker and will make it better for the next generation.
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Old 06-15-2015, 09:43 AM   #716
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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What i see from anti-NC here is like that "We have to not exploit everything because that is unfair against players that cant exploit much".I mean that NoteCaddy is cheap and for everyone,is that unfair?It is like you say "Do not be good, because i have not much brain or i dont care to be as good as you".
JFC... First off, your quote at the end about anti-NC not using their own brains is totally backwards. If you don't get why, w/e But really, that was the worst possible invented quote you could come up with in order to bash "anti-NC"

Secondly, you're really stepping all over your "Location" quote. There's nothing "experience-y" (not a word, but you get it) about you acting based on a badge showing up or not. Whereas it's all about experience if and how you bet in a certain situation based on 2, 10 or 100 displayed stats. So you got it backwards here too.
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Old 06-15-2015, 09:54 AM   #717
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Is this discussion even for real? They have claimed for months that banning seating scripts is impossible /not enforceable... Having hefty ban like the one proposed is 100 time more complex. The end result will be people will still use all of the tools just not openly and it will cost a lot more money. So honest people will be in disadvantage and PokerStars will do another favor for people gaming the system.
I am amazed people really discussing it. I mean the ban will only put honest people in disadvantage. Now it is possible for everyone to buy NC and some other stuff. Soon it will be over. Shady people will offer tools that will be even more expensive than now and your options will be buying it and risking ban etc. or accepting being at disadvantage with other people doing so.

Pokerstars prove you can ban seating scripts first /do something about bot problem then you can do the proposed ban. Now you will just do scumbags a favor and will just give them more money.
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Old 06-15-2015, 09:56 AM   #718
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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I mean, this is why I struggle to take your opinions on this seriously for the most part. Software is one of the things which rids online poker of all the problems of live poker and will make it better for the next generation.
That's OK - I've got used to the bizarre and arrogant hierarchy many on 2+2 have. If you crush your view is valid, if you pay the bills your opinion is worthless.

Trouble is, back in the real world - not the world born of mum's basement, it is the ones that pay the bills whose view really matters.

Meanwhile you chose to quote an entire post of mine, one that had a distressingly logical flow to it for some and your only real disagreement is that I don't crush, and don't pay for NoteCaddy, in part because at my volume/level it would only work at all if I used illegal data with it. Sadly others at my level don't draw that line so the online community loses the $$ I would donate in a different playing environment and the level I would donate at is destroyed, in turn preventing players moving up to donate to you crushers, with your software assistance.

Funny thing is, in a few years, I'll still have an income, a house, kids and I'll still play a bit of poker and the crushers will be left with nowt as the game dies. Ironic, eh?

We've seen the next generation, it is bots, well CyBots crushing PLO, HUSNGs basically destroyed by new software to help players (within th rules) and regs paying out for yet more add on software to try and stave off the inevitable for a few months.

See you in five years.
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Old 06-15-2015, 10:01 AM   #719
devera
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Again, HUD doesn't change based on action and you are making stuff up. Stop.

The last paragraph you wrote is just ridicilous. No program I know of has the ability to do that and it would be against the already existing TOS because it would need to scrape screen data AND combine various stats.

Just stop. You are not bringing anything to the discussion except misinformation, lies and incivility.
You're not the one to talk about incivility, so I'd lay off a bit on that if I were you.

And you either intentionally misread my post or you simply can't follow it logically, although it's not that complicated. I did NOT say the hud changes dynamically during a hand (again, try to read "carefully", as you said, those anti-NC apes posting their opinions).

What I did was portray a very simple development that could come up in a couple of years, by natural "evolution" of poker software. Just as a badge pops up depending on villain stats, there could be a heatmap associated with villain's 3bet stats, broken down by flop texture. So I can instantly know a villain with a 10% polarized 3bet BTN vs CO can't stand a xr on an A high flop x% of the time, y% of the time on a K high flop and so on (there really aren't that many possible flop textures groups, so they can all be put in) just by making a single click. Pay attention, I said "a villain", not "this villain", I said "an A high flop, a K high flop, a 10 high coordinated rainbow flop etc", not "this hand's A high flop, which the HUD reads dynamically". All of this would be loaded instantly before the start of a hand, nothing would change during the hand. Do you really think this cannot be done? I'm pretty sure it can (and probably will be) done, unless there's a clear signal that too much is really too much.

The simple fact that the HUD changes from one villain to the next is a Pandora's box. So it really needs to be forbidden.
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Old 06-15-2015, 10:09 AM   #720
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by devera View Post
JFC... First off, your quote at the end about anti-NC not using their own brains is totally backwards. If you don't get why, w/e But really, that was the worst possible invented quote you could come up with in order to bash "anti-NC"

Secondly, you're really stepping all over your "Location" quote. There's nothing "experience-y" (not a word, but you get it) about you acting based on a badge showing up or not. Whereas it's all about experience if and how you bet in a certain situation based on 2, 10 or 100 displayed stats. So you got it backwards here too.
Prob you cant get the point.The point is that isnt unfair,i dont care to bash someone. I never said that someone isnt able to use his brain,i just meant that maybe some recs or regs arnt able to use the NC by efficient way.Also there is a lot of experience in order to get a good badge system.NC is only show what there is inside your Data Base,not less not much,i cant see why is that unfair,isn't advise you to do something.For me its just a good add-on to your HUD.
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Old 06-15-2015, 10:15 AM   #721
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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You're not the one to talk about incivility, so I'd lay off a bit on that if I were you.

And you either intentionally misread my post or you simply can't follow it logically, although it's not that complicated. I did NOT say the hud changes dynamically during a hand (again, try to read "carefully", as you said, those anti-NC apes posting their opinions).

What I did was portray a very simple development that could come up in a couple of years, by natural "evolution" of poker software. Just as a badge pops up depending on villain stats, there could be a heatmap associated with villain's 3bet stats, broken down by flop texture. So I can instantly know a villain with a 10% polarized 3bet BTN vs CO can't stand a xr on an A high flop x% of the time, y% of the time on a K high flop and so on (there really aren't that many possible flop textures groups, so they can all be put in) just by making a single click. Pay attention, I said "a villain", not "this villain", I said "an A high flop, a K high flop, a 10 high coordinated rainbow flop etc", not "this hand's A high flop, which the HUD reads dynamically". All of this would be loaded instantly before the start of a hand, nothing would change during the hand. Do you really think this cannot be done? I'm pretty sure it can (and probably will be) done, unless there's a clear signal that too much is really too much.

The simple fact that the HUD changes from one villain to the next is a Pandora's box. So it really needs to be forbidden.
Like I said, if someone can make a static detailed information like that without screen scraping and changing the HUD dynamically by action/texture, organize it extremely well, and be able to go through it in 5 seconds he has to decide on his action, good for them. I support their intelligence and hard work 100%.

If it is not villain specific and doesnt change with the actions/board why would you even use such complex info in a HUD? You can have a word document or a well organized book with all the info you said written down. Reference it as you please if you can go through huge amounts of data in seconds.

HUD changes from villain to villain? Wow. You are right, we should all have random static numbers that are not connected to the villain showing up.

Why do I even reply to you.
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Old 06-15-2015, 10:18 AM   #722
TheDefiniteArticle
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Richas View Post
That's OK - I've got used to the bizarre and arrogant hierarchy many on 2+2 have. If you crush your view is valid, if you pay the bills your opinion is worthless.

Trouble is, back in the real world - not the world born of mum's basement, it is the ones that pay the bills whose view really matters.

Meanwhile you chose to quote an entire post of mine, one that had a distressingly logical flow to it for some and your only real disagreement is that I don't crush, and don't pay for NoteCaddy, in part because at my volume/level it would only work at all if I used illegal data with it. Sadly others at my level don't draw that line so the online community loses the $$ I would donate in a different playing environment and the level I would donate at is destroyed, in turn preventing players moving up to donate to you crushers, with your software assistance.

Funny thing is, in a few years, I'll still have an income, a house, kids and I'll still play a bit of poker and the crushers will be left with nowt as the game dies. Ironic, eh?

We've seen the next generation, it is bots, well CyBots crushing PLO, HUSNGs basically destroyed by new software to help players (within th rules) and regs paying out for yet more add on software to try and stave off the inevitable for a few months.

See you in five years.
I don't play poker for an income (I've just finished a law degree at Oxford so while I will shortly be unemployed, I have decent career prospects). First and foremost, I play it as a recreational player (though I'm making enough at the moment that I can consider playing professionally for a short time while I look for a job). This means that when I'm not having fun, I stop playing. I'm here not because I fear I won't be able to make money - that doesn't really concern me - but because cutting down the software available to the bare minimum would suck all the fun out of online poker. FWIW I don't use notecaddy, a script, any automated chart software or even Snowie. All I use is a pretty complex HUD I designed myself, and a pen and paper with Equilab and occasionally CREV for off-table work. Banning notecaddy would almost certainly benefit me substantially, but I fear it would set a precedent.

Don't assume that everyone against you merely fears for their own financial situation.
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Old 06-15-2015, 10:29 AM   #723
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Havent had time to go threw the whole topic, just got a email from notecaddy saying pokerstars is considering banning its software.

I personaly am a huge fan of statistics, HUDS, software (CREV Flopzilla) etc. I am a competitive guy who likes a challenge, i think notecaddy (and HUDS in general, CREV, flopilla) up the level of play, wich evolves the game to a new level.

Now the people who complain about this, are probably the ones who are less competitive and "lazy" to keep putting time in there game (even tho they might give a other reason wich maybe even they told there self it true), wich i think is a bad reason to ban the software.

The software is out there publicly and is free to be used by everyone.. If we would ban the sofware, what you will get is some wizkids will find ways to gain a edge in some other "illegal" way, by creating there own software or keep running it even tho its banned on external computers or something of thwat kind, wich i think is another reason why you shouldnt ban something unless you can guarentee a 100% bullit proof wall that nobody else is using anything of its kind, wich seems very hard to do.

The people who are willing to put in more work will always come out on top, if you ban certain software or not, they will find other ways to gain a edge (illegal or legal), and then we will have a new discussion going on
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Old 06-15-2015, 10:29 AM   #724
Richas
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDefiniteArticle View Post
Don't assume that everyone against you merely fears for their own financial situation.
Cool, now try not assuming that because someone plays recreationally they are ignorant or their view invalid.

With your education you could try dealing with the post you quoted, not trying to play the man instead.

FYI I was playing poker before you were born and online roughly when you left primary school. I get that you like s/w but with respect for your perspective you might want to take a longer view. Track the direction of travel rather than proclaim that the CyBot generation is fun or the future.

Last edited by Richas; 06-15-2015 at 10:34 AM. Reason: Add on
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Old 06-15-2015, 10:31 AM   #725
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

hello guys, I put my IMHO here:
I think everyone is in equal conditions now. Like on the market you could buy things cheaper but you should make an effort and spend time to find it or you could buy it instantly paying extra price for it. Some people chose 1st variant others second. When we are saying that everyone should play under one condition it is like everyone should sell with the same price one the market. And in my opinion it is nonsense! These software is open for everyone and everyone could use it, what a problem here?
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