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Old 06-14-2015, 12:30 PM   #551
thunderbolts
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by insyder19 View Post
THERE IS A BOT RING GOING ON ON YOUR SITE AND BECAUSE OF THAT YOU ARE CHANGING YOUR T&C
These changes are connected with specific software tools and not the bot issues. AFAIK all such bots are already banned by the Ts&Cs, no?
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Old 06-14-2015, 12:42 PM   #552
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by insyder19 View Post
As for the Software itself, I am a high volume player myself and I would ban them all. I use HEM and a HUD of course. It does help me make proper decisions, yes. But we are forgetting one thing when we discuss whether we should move on like sports does or not.

We forget to think about the recrational players. They deposit and want to have a good time. They might use HEM but for sure with a standard HUD. I am pretty sure noone of them uses NoteCaddy. We need those players to not go bust in 5 hands in NL Holdem and in 10 hands in PLO but instead be able to survive a longer period of time. That is the only way we can make more amateurs deposit and play online.
A ban of NoteCaddy will not result in recreationals surviving any longer than now and you know that. The skill-gap between RECs and REGs has dramatically increased in the last years. Additional the boom is over and there are not enough new players entering the tank, which causes a highly predatory environment. In former days there were sharks in the wide sea, today it's piranhas in a small tank waiting for one ignorant to drop into it.

Like already said, you know that and i'm pretty sure that your wish for NC being banned has another self-serving reason
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Old 06-14-2015, 12:49 PM   #553
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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We forget to think about the recrational players. They deposit and want to have a good time. They might use HEM but for sure with a standard HUD. I am pretty sure noone of them uses NoteCaddy. We need those players to not go bust in 5 hands in NL Holdem and in 10 hands in PLO but instead be able to survive a longer period of time. That is the only way we can make more amateurs deposit and play online.
No software afects rec. players. they dont last 200 hands before busting and while playing those few hands you dont get any advantage from software on them. Playing an ABC poker will be always enough.
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Old 06-14-2015, 12:59 PM   #554
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by insyder19 View Post
WHY DOES POKERSTARS NOT INFORM THEIR PLAYERS ABOUT THIS THREAD? THERE IS A BOT RING GOING ON ON YOUR SITE AND BECAUSE OF THAT YOU ARE CHANGING YOUR T&C YET YOU ARE UNABLE TO SEND OUT AN EMAIL TO AT LEAST YOUR SN AND SNE PLAYERS LIKE YOU DO WHEN INFORMING THEM ABOUT THE UPCOMING SCOOP AND OTHER STUFF?
They would have to admit their security team is incompetent. A few people here emailed Stars about the bots back in october 2014, these bots have been playing for close to a year.

Yet we receive 15$ refunds. Where the **** is the rest of the confiscated money going?
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Old 06-14-2015, 01:04 PM   #555
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I think that this is a step in the right direction.

As a regular of the game I fear for two things for the future of online poker.

1) that bots / semi bots will create unbeatable opponents that will kill of the incentive to be a regular poker player.

2) That the already growing concerns of 3rd party poker software (and bots) discourage recreationals from playing the game. Other sites where you cannot use a HUD are already promoting their software due to such concerns, and concerns seem only to be growing.

I think that the rules help toward both my concerns. To avoid them more efficiently, and because I believe it is good sportmanship, I think that you should take it one step further and create a list of approved programs that you may run while playing poker (not stuff like word of course), and that all such programs should be able to be purchased at a reasonble price - like PT4 and HEM. This would provide an extra meausre clarity to what it means to be good at poker, as your proposed rules are still open to interpretation. Such a list could efficiently stop rumours like that skier or TCfromUB use unbeatable GTO software that no human can compete against.
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Old 06-14-2015, 01:04 PM   #556
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Just found about the skier´s software scandal which perhaps showes specific charts depending on the current hand information (effective stack, range and other stats) and it looks like this is what pokerstars wishes to restrict.

Note caddy does nothing like that and im sure that every single of you pro-ban note caddy people here are aware of this, and you are just seizing the moment to get rid of it because you just dont like it.
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Old 06-14-2015, 01:08 PM   #557
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Richas View Post
Gotta love those satisfied customers :-)

Am I the only one that finds NoteCaddy advocates funny when they claim it is not a hugely powerful tool that gives them an advantage but seem to be wetting themselves in case their player specific in game advice is restricted?
After all these years and countless of times people dumbing it down as much as possible that note caddy doesn't give you advice you still repeat the same uninformed statement.

When ignorant but opinionated people with nothing better to do go around mouthing off, spreading their ignorance to others it always screws things up.

For what must be the 100th time:

ad·vice
ədˈvīs/
noun
noun: advice

guidance or recommendations concerning prudent future action, typically given by someone regarded as knowledgeable or authoritative.


A missile guidance system tells the missile exactly where to go. It doesn't say "hey missile did you know that sometimes terrorists hide out in caves?"
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Old 06-14-2015, 01:28 PM   #558
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by MicroRoller View Post
After all these years and countless of times people dumbing it down as much as possible that note caddy doesn't give you advice you still repeat the same uninformed statement.

.......

For what must be the 100th time:

ad·vice
ədˈvīs/
noun
noun: advice

guidance or recommendations concerning prudent future action, typically given by someone regarded as knowledgeable or authoritative.
Yep, specific badges created on specific players, displayed on those specific players that with the notes you get with those badges specific guidance on what actions they show exploit that player.

It is advice, it is clearly advice, it is mostly sold as an add on but as soon as you introduce the capability of s/w to scan hundreds of different stats for your opponents and then present the handful of key exploit tactics that should be used against that player you stop playing poker based upon your ability and your skills and instead follow the programmer's advice, the programmer that created that badge and the software package that delivered it up to your screen for that specific player, neatly colour coded to make sure you know the street it applies to.

It is advice, it is a stat derived bit of advice, delivered up by notecaddy thanks to the efforts of the programmers of the core package and the additional badge package you piad for. It is essentially software driven player specific in game advice.

You can cling pedantically to the nonsense that it is a stat - but it aint, the colour coding, the presentation of it and the crib sheet that details what it means in terms of advice make it ADVICE.

If you can't play without your little colour coded advice software - TOUGH. It is essentially a Cybot, it is information - ADVICE delivered up to you by software.

If it isn't a powerful advantage - a paid for software advantage - then what are you bitching about? If it tells you nothing about what to do in a hand, from a selection of hundreds of different bits of player specific exploit advice why would you care if Stars agreed with me that you can have any stat you like in your HUD, but you get the exact same stats for all the players you are up against, not cherry picked advice badges from hundreds of options programmed by others and flagged up to exploit that player not based on your skills but based upon that of the programmer you paid to provide in game advice for you.
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Old 06-14-2015, 01:40 PM   #559
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I would prefer it if you couldn't buy/sell HUD profiles and things which integrate into them, but that's largely because it removes the skill and effort of creating a good HUD.
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Old 06-14-2015, 01:44 PM   #560
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Today's soccer is tougher than the soccer played in 1900, but did we even hear at least once something like bohoho! Soccer got tougher in the last years! Let's ban coaching, let's destroy all the theory books, let's kill Pep, Mourinho and Ancelotti!? I guess not. The same goes for poker. Yes, poker got more competitive, because more and more serious people are interested in this game.
When Messi scores a wonder-goal, is he using his 100% human abilities, or does he have bionic legs and a computer rammed up his arse?

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Originally Posted by Zanardi View Post
The playing field is level, my dears.
It's only "level" in the sense that regs with standard HUDs have no edge against each other. Players with "super-HUDs" have a significant edge on you, because you're just a run of the mill HUDbot that doesn't know what's good for him.
Why do you think winrates are so low on Stars? It's because HUDs don't give you an advantage over other regs. They just enable you to identify and crush the recreationals. Without HUDs, you can get an edge on other players, because your opponents won't be playing like robots or immediately know that you're a nit.
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Originally Posted by monkeyheaven View Post
Continuing with the sporting comparisons; PEDs in many sports, racket/bat spec in tennis/cricket, engine spec in F1, bike design in cycling, helmet aerodynamics in Skeleton Bob, homegrown player quotas in English football, salary caps in nfl.
Indeed. Technology has been used to improve the entertainment value, safety and fairness of many sports, and it has been controlled and regulated in order to guarantee the longevity of those sports. Technology allowed the birth of online poker, and that's a great thing. Uncontrolled, it will be the death of it.
Playing like or against a bot is not entertaining, safe or fair. If Pokerstars is interested in "sportifying" poker, it should make it more fun. I want to play a game for money ffs. If I wanted a low-paid data-entry job, I'd get one.

Last edited by ArtyMcFly; 06-14-2015 at 01:50 PM.
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Old 06-14-2015, 01:49 PM   #561
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by jeanchris View Post
Ban everything.

Hud, hem, pokertracker, script, table ninja, everything.

That would be one of the best decision for the future of online poker and bringing back online poker closer to a "real" poker game.

It's also really good for recreational player.
+1 but will never happen because too many nits rely on their huds, and those nits pay the rake

but of course, don't ban StackAndTile
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Old 06-14-2015, 01:58 PM   #562
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Its relieving to see some of the veteran posters here telling it straight. They would have been around alot longer then me and many others and would have witnessed a fast and steady decline of online poker due to the greed of a select few programmers and players.
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Old 06-14-2015, 02:01 PM   #563
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

It's pretty amazing how players can be so adamant that NoteCaddy only presents info which players could build up themselves but then the same players go mad when there is a suggestion the software might be removed.

If it is so easy to profile all the hundreds (000's) of players you meet online and build up notes for how they play in multiple situations then what's the problem?

The simple fact is these players probably watch 10% of all the hands from which NC builds up a huge database.The amount of hours you would have to put in to build up vastly inferior notes on your opponents would be incredible.

The reason you want NC to stay is simple - 99.99% of the players using the software would not be able to build up notes and tags on players to anywhere near the extent to which NC does.
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Old 06-14-2015, 02:01 PM   #564
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by TheDefiniteArticle View Post
Let's say the average reg tables reg plays 16 tables (possibly a slight under/overestimate). We're going to have that in both HUD and no-HUD tables. Let's then say that they can get on 1/2 of all 'playable' tables (and non-playable ones would break soon anyway), so we need at least 32 in each to support a split properly (so 64 overall). Would be very surprised if anyone played exclusively at 100FR any more rather than mixing sites/stakes.

This is assuming the regs are going to want to play exclusively HUD tables, which simply isn't true, they're going to want to play where the recs are playing. Unless Stars is going to allow tracking software open and running, with a HUD running, but trust people/makers of tracking software not to run it on HUDless tables, it effectively amounts to a complete ban because it won't be feasible to run a HUD given one drastically limits their table selection ability.

Any given information about HUDs/tracking software naturally couldn't go further than what they actually do in themselves, which is record data from hands the player themselves has played, and process and present statistics from that, while making it incredibly clear that they do not offer advice or suggestions as to strategy. That's probably not going to be enough for you, though, is it? Not presenting some kind of pejorative 'cheat device' approach makes the use of HUDs seem far too reasonable!

It provides more reliable data because having two types of table in one client means that a lot of the time, recs will just click on to the first table which pops up and regs will follow them. This creates a huge skew in the data relative to people having to actually spend some time and effort to change (even if it's just clicking the 'transfer to FTP' button), which would pretty much exclude those who don't really care.



See above. At least 64 tables would be needed at any given limit to reasonably run both HUD and no-HUD tables.
so im a 6 tabling reg at $100... and ill tell u what I am not here (im sure the recs/fish would agree) for some hud lovin 16 table'r...

so who cares if they have to adjust and play fewer games - if it means rec/fish last longer then i am all for it... and if the 16 table'rs dont like it? where r they going? what other site would even offer 8 tables for them to play at during peak hours?

and your data babble makes no sense...

but again - LET THE MARKET DECIDE

online is getting a bad rap - whether you like it or not some people wont play online poker because they think using software is cheating... so bring those people into the fold by offering games they will play

one of two things will happen - we will have demand or none

but screaming that the Apocalypse is coming by offering something that clearly a good number of players want is silly... especially since i am advocating a hybrid that allows both - SO THE MARKET DECIDES
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Old 06-14-2015, 02:06 PM   #565
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by d7o1d1s0 View Post
i guess the easiest way to succinctly express the distinction would be this - a program which tells you what has happened in the past (i.e. provides notes) is fine, a program which tells you what should happen (i.e. provides live advice) is not.
i guess you haven't followed the reason why all of this came up to begin with, which is because of skier's software.

should we ban physical printed charts in a 3 ring notebook binder since they provide 'advice' on what should happen?
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Old 06-14-2015, 02:20 PM   #566
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by bhoylegend View Post
It reminds me of the time not too long ago when a Pokerstars software update caused HUDs to stop working on Zoom etc. There were people refusing to play until this was fixed. Whining relentlessly in both the HEM thread in Commercial Software and the Pokerstars Software Improvement thread about how it was the weekend and they couldn't grind.

Pokerstars, for their part, had a team of people working on the problem off the clock. Clearly it's very important for them to keep peoples ability to play with software.

That's where its got to, people afraid to play without their third party software, they clearly pay no attention to who they are playing against when they have no access to their HUD. They make no effort at all to take notes themselves and would be helpless to know what to do in marginal spots without it.

Hey bhoy

Think maybe PT users just weren't sure if HM was working, and HM users just weren't sure if PT was working - like I think everybody was concerned that playing without a HUD while others still had theirs would be a disadvantage?
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Old 06-14-2015, 02:25 PM   #567
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

hilarious how the HEM/NC guys have emailed their users to chime in, the email gets posted in the thread, and then you see the flock of sheep NC users posting in opposition
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Old 06-14-2015, 02:41 PM   #568
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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These changes are connected with specific software tools and not the bot issues. AFAIK all such bots are already banned by the Ts&Cs, no?
Those banned accounts are not pure bots. They are most likely human beings playing with a software on the side which tells in real time what to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FR-Nit View Post
A ban of NoteCaddy will not result in recreationals surviving any longer than now and you know that. The skill-gap between RECs and REGs has dramatically increased in the last years. Additional the boom is over and there are not enough new players entering the tank, which causes a highly predatory environment. In former days there were sharks in the wide sea, today it's piranhas in a small tank waiting for one ignorant to drop into it.

Like already said, you know that and i'm pretty sure that your wish for NC being banned has another self-serving reason
I am not the typical poker player who cares about his bottom line only.

You are probably right that you don't really need to use Notecaddy against a random fish, who just joined your game and you have no hands against anyway. However, against fish who play on regular basis such tools will help you exploit them even more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamPrieto View Post
No software afects rec. players. they dont last 200 hands before busting and while playing those few hands you dont get any advantage from software on them. Playing an ABC poker will be always enough.
See statement above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSwings View Post
They would have to admit their security team is incompetent. A few people here emailed Stars about the bots back in october 2014, these bots have been playing for close to a year.

Yet we receive 15$ refunds. Where the **** is the rest of the confiscated money going?
Into the greedy pocket of Scheinberg and David Baazov.
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Old 06-14-2015, 02:57 PM   #569
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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As countless others i received the email from notecaddy urging me to come defend their business here(they are making bank.)

As most that received the email, i agree with any complete ban. I have a few guys who received it and do not post on 2p2 that also agree with the complete ban. Those guys all bought the 300$+ extra package from Ajackson(making bank) or similar(also making hundred's of k's per year killing the games).

Good regs will keep making money without such programs. ****ty ones will disappear. Leeches (coaches/hud makers) will earn less. It's a win/win.
.
notecaddy needs to go
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Old 06-14-2015, 02:58 PM   #570
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I feel like every person defending note caddy that says fish are busted in 5 hands should not be allowed to comment. It's bs. If you look up most fish at 100nl+ on PTR and similar, they will all have 4k+ hands. 4k hands is a lot 1 tabling.
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Old 06-14-2015, 02:59 PM   #571
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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First, I don't know if your pro or anti NC but regardless your civility is very appreciated.

I am unaware of any other programs (either private or public) that can be used with NC or, even completely on their own, to give the type of dynamic advice that Stars prohibits. Which isn't to say they don't exist, just that I'm not aware of them.

I didn't make it clear in my first post, but I'm 100% in agreement with Stars rules/stance as I understand them.

IMO,HUDs should be allowed to parse past play as much as they want and present that data in any way they want. HUDs can not be allowed to give in game advice. They can not use your holdings or table actions and give advice. That is an extremely clear line. Whatever the line is I want that line to be clearly defined and enforceable.
nice work you're doing lining your pockets at the expense of online poker. I hope your program is banned on all sites. lol @ you sending out emails asking people to defend your garbage program....
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Old 06-14-2015, 03:18 PM   #572
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I agree with Arty and sixfour...

I have played online poker since 2002. I currently use PT4. You used to have to buy your hud separately for your database and it was a lot more work to get everything going. There were no prepackedged custom built huds, datamining sites, scripting soft etc.

To say the playing field is level is a huge joke! I don't want to have to go buy all this crap just to keep up. Hell, I can't even keep up with the all the stuff there is on the market. I don't even know what half the **** does. I do know that it destroys the games; to assist mass tabling grinders in annihilating the ecosystem is idiotic and Stars should consider this.

All software should be banned. That is a level playing field.

If some Borg from Star Trek played at the Commerce and won a bunch of money scanning the table with a goddamn laser eye his ass would be turned into 4 auto shufflers and steaming pile of bulgogi before he could reach the cage.

Online poker is drastically different now then pre-hud days. The game now is more about who has the newest and greatest software than who is a better poker player

It used to be you read books, studied, watched videos, talked hands away from table. Now the biggest crushers have the best in-game computer assistance, period. That is not poker played by humans ON a computer, it is poker played by humans WITH a computer. It is halfway to pure botting, it is becoming botpoker.

Stop the arms race, ban it all. We are moving in the wrong direction. Wake the **** up!

-No software
-4 tables max
-Rec friendly rewards system
-An no effing teams either. F cartels and stop facilitating stables via xfers
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Old 06-14-2015, 03:25 PM   #573
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by MX210 View Post
I feel like every person defending note caddy that says fish are busted in 5 hands should not be allowed to comment. It's bs. If you look up most fish at 100nl+ on PTR and similar, they will all have 4k+ hands. 4k hands is a lot 1 tabling.
LOL, excessive use of datamining-services?!

The arguement came btw from someone who is for the ban of NoteCaddy because it kills fish faster in his opinion.
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Old 06-14-2015, 03:27 PM   #574
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

PLS should start to incentive people who create the action at the tables.(incentive people starting the tables it would be great for everyone) and ban seat scripting instead of NC

Last edited by Plw; 06-14-2015 at 03:52 PM.
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Old 06-14-2015, 03:34 PM   #575
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by king acehole View Post
I agree with Arty and sixfour...

I have played online poker since 2002. I currently use PT4. You used to have to buy your hud separately for your database and it was a lot more work to get everything going. There were no prepackedged custom built huds, datamining sites, scripting soft etc.

To say the playing field is level is a huge joke! I don't want to have to go buy all this crap just to keep up. Hell, I can't even keep up with the all the stuff there is on the market. I don't even know what half the **** does. I do know that it destroys the games; to assist mass tabling grinders in annihilating the ecosystem is idiotic and Stars should consider this.

All software should be banned. That is a level playing field.

If some Borg from Star Trek played at the Commerce and won a bunch of money scanning the table with a goddamn laser eye his ass would be turned into 4 auto shufflers and steaming pile of bulgogi before he could reach the cage.

Online poker is drastically different now then pre-hud days. The game now is more about who has the newest and greatest software than who is a better poker player

It used to be you read books, studied, watched videos, talked hands away from table. Now the biggest crushers have the best in-game computer assistance, period. That is not poker played by humans ON a computer, it is poker played by humans WITH a computer. It is halfway to pure botting, it is becoming botpoker.

Stop the arms race, ban it all. We are moving in the wrong direction. Wake the **** up!

-No software
-4 tables max
-Rec friendly rewards system
-An no effing teams either. F cartels and stop facilitating stables via xfers
I agree with some of what you're saying but at least a very significant portion of cash games have little to nothing to do with a software arms race (I personally only use a HUD which I made myself). Simpler games mathematically might be different. You're right that a rec-friendly rewards system would be better. but you're completely wrong to conflate cartels and stables, the latter just being a group of people who talk poker who happen to be staked most of the time.
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