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Old 06-14-2015, 07:53 AM   #501
ArtyMcFly
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by MrsPrinzess View Post
I dont know why all guys crying here, we live in the year 2015. Hud or all that stuff is available for everyone. Anyone can use things like notecaddy and buy it. It doesnt mean that you become a better Poker Player with that.You have to put hard work into all that like interpret those stats, and the game we play is poker and what is it all about is to get an edge of your opponent.
This is what I'd characterize as the 'Lance Armstrong argument', which amounts to "I only resorted to taking drugs because everyone else was taking drugs. I still had to work my butt off to make sure I got the most out of the drugs."
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Old 06-14-2015, 08:04 AM   #502
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by DismasX View Post
#
Many comments here seems to come from people, that afraid NC as a "Supertool", but never used it. Everything that NC do I can also do by writing notes or by using the possibilities of HM2 or PT4 (filters, custom stats etc.) more effective. Yes, it is helpful and yes, may be it give the user some % more edge. But many things can do that. Changing from a 24" to a 30" monitor increased my winrate more. Dont surfing while playing too^^. Not sure with looking vidz, had a big upswing when I saw "True detectice". May be looking that while playing gave me an unfair advantage...
that is what i said in my post just because YOU can do it doesnt mean the majority can or want to do it if they ban NC, and thus NC is giving the same edge YOU as a thinking/working reg would have over the 90% of the braindead regs.

Last edited by weaktightreg; 06-14-2015 at 08:21 AM.
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Old 06-14-2015, 08:10 AM   #503
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
This is what I'd characterize as the 'Lance Armstrong argument', which amounts to "I only resorted to taking drugs because everyone else was taking drugs. I still had to work my butt off to make sure I got the most out of the drugs."
It also goes a long way to defeating the argument based on an uneven playing field.
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Old 06-14-2015, 08:11 AM   #504
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

the contrast between the ignorant rage at skier's program and the righteous defense of note caddy is pathetic.

skier points out 2 legal HUDs that use illegal data-mining to profile players with pre-programmed strategies and the response is *crickets*.
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Old 06-14-2015, 08:21 AM   #505
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by TheDefiniteArticle View Post
Any given information about HUDs/tracking software naturally couldn't go further than what they actually do in themselves, which is record data from hands the player themselves has played, and process and present statistics from that, while making it incredibly clear that they do not offer advice or suggestions as to strategy. That's probably not going to be enough for you, though, is it? Not presenting some kind of pejorative 'cheat device' approach makes the use of HUDs seem far too reasonable!
I think the main fear is that tracking software will eventually "go further" and lead to this recorded data and these processed statistics being used in accordance with higher powered bot software. In creation we would not just have GTO bots but bots that are capable of making exploitable adjustments to their opponents at the table. Of course another problem is that the software gets to the point where maybe we don't have a bunch of "robots" per say but rather people sitting behind the pokersite with sophisticated software enough that basically tells the user what to click with their mouse/ bet size to input, etc . I'm glad pokerstars is trying to draw the line somewhere at least and hope that they do make some changes.
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Old 06-14-2015, 08:25 AM   #506
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by DrawNone View Post
the contrast between the ignorant rage at skier's program and the righteous defense of note caddy is pathetic.

skier points out 2 legal HUDs that use illegal data-mining to profile players with pre-programmed strategies and the response is *crickets*.
Agree with this to and also please Stars, find a way to prevent all the illegal data-mining.
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Old 06-14-2015, 08:29 AM   #507
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by thunderbolts View Post
AJackson, thanks for pitching in.

Can you please give some clear examples of what this actually means in practice?



In particular, is there any change in what is displayed during the course of a hand as a result of the action?
To your last question, no stat, badge or range graph changes in any way once the hand starts. Those are all static. My HUD is just like every other HUD for the past 10 years. When the hand is finished the hand is imported and that information is added to the database and displayed on the HUD.

To your first question, I wanted to avoid getting into a lot of specifics regarding my HUD as I don't want to seem like I'm advertising. Mods please edit/remove if you see fit. My stats have 3 levels: vsAll, vsReg and vsHero. If the sample for the next level is large enough the HUD will display the next level. This feature is something new to HUDs but I don't see it as any different than having regular stats and vsHero stats side by side. It just reduces a lot of clutter of having double stats and figuring out which one to use.
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Old 06-14-2015, 08:30 AM   #508
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Allow people to view 10% or whatever number is good of their hand histories. This allows anyone to review/watch/share any specific HH they want to but makes any hud/data mining sample 10 times as small.

Update the client so you can request any details of your own results. Seems like a pretty solid solution the more I think about it.
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Old 06-14-2015, 08:32 AM   #509
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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I think it's unfair of Stars to include NoteCaddy with just a vague statement that changes would be required.

What changes? How does NC go against their list of prohibited services?

NC does not have the ability to read active hand hole cards or actions. Without the ability to read hole cards or actions how does NC break the rules?

I know NC and it's capabilities well. Full disclosure, I sell a NC generated HUD. To my knowledge, NC does not in any way "[offer] real-time commentary or advice on the current game state that goes beyond reporting data and statistics."

NC allows you to design stats which are as specific as you want, you can add conditions for bet size, pot size, effective stack size, board texture, define opponent types. This does not go beyond 'reporting data and statistics'.

NC allows you to make graphical representations of opponent's past play. This does not go beyond 'reporting data and statistics'.

NC allows you to create badges based on stats or a combination of stats. This does not go beyond 'reporting data and statistics'.

I don't speak for NC but my personal observation is that the NC developer closely considers how each aspect of NC fits with site rules and would not break the rules. I feel like Stars inclusion of NC without defining the issue is borderline libelous (not in the legal sense but in the gambling sense of damaging his reputation).

________

I saw dynamic being used a lot in the comments and searched for dynamic to read all those comments.

Two of the HUDs I sell (HUD is generated 100% by NC definitions) are called dynamic which may be causing some confusion since dynamic is also used by Stars. Stars is using dynamic in the sense of information based on knowledge of the current hand, i.e. the program can read hole cards or actions in the current hand and tells you what to do (that isn't possible with NC). My use of dynamic only refers to how I parse information from previous hands. My dynamic feature is that stats will display information for specific stats facing different play types based on sample size. I also use individual stat sample sizes rather than general date or overall hand count sample sizes and I refer to that as dynamic. None of this goes beyond 'reporting data and statistics'.

_________

I know there is vocal group that are against HUDs in general and especially NoteCaddy. I'm not going to engage anyone wrt if HUDs generally or NC specifically should be banned. It's a fine debate but it's been done to death and I have no interest in rehashing debates that have already been exhausted.

I'm very happy to discuss whether or not NC is offering real-time commentary or advice on the current game state that goes beyond reporting data and statistics (or breaking any of Stars rules).
Well Said, Well Said
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Old 06-14-2015, 08:37 AM   #510
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by TheDefiniteArticle View Post
Let's say the average reg tables reg plays 16 tables (possibly a slight under/overestimate).
think this is part of the problem tbqh, if stars' promotions/rewards systems weren't so pathetic towards low volume players and so biased towards high volume players, they wouldn't feel the need to play so many tables to chase SN/SNE, necessitating a software arms race so that they don't get destroyed while doing so.
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Old 06-14-2015, 08:42 AM   #511
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Sad news for players. NoteCaddy is a very usefull tool. Dont remove it please.
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Old 06-14-2015, 08:44 AM   #512
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

im for banning NoteCaddy. It might not be dynamic but it offers just to much easy good information that no sane person would make notes for. If there is a advantage to be had in the other player, you got it all with NoteCaddy and you didnt have to do a thing cept set it up.

As for 2 legal HUDs that use illegal data-mining to profile players with pre-programmed strategies, if thats the case they def should be banned but since they are not greatly popular and known, most dont comment because they prob dont know much about it.
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Old 06-14-2015, 08:45 AM   #513
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by AJackson View Post
To your last question, no stat, badge or range graph changes in any way once the hand starts. Those are all static. My HUD is just like every other HUD for the past 10 years. When the hand is finished the hand is imported and that information is added to the database and displayed on the HUD.

To your first question, I wanted to avoid getting into a lot of specifics regarding my HUD as I don't want to seem like I'm advertising. Mods please edit/remove if you see fit. My stats have 3 levels: vsAll, vsReg and vsHero. If the sample for the next level is large enough the HUD will display the next level. This feature is something new to HUDs but I don't see it as any different than having regular stats and vsHero stats side by side. It just reduces a lot of clutter of having double stats and figuring out which one to use.
Thanks, that's helpful.

My immediate reaction is that your software doesn't sound "dynamic" in the sense of what Stars should be attempting to ban here. I use some vsHero stats (or pop-ups) in my own HUD, which is simply the result of playing around with HM2 a little.

Are you aware of any other HUDs/extensions to NC that would present information according to action? No need to name them if you're wary of being seen to disparage (or indeed promote) competitors; I'm sure others will pitch in.
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Old 06-14-2015, 08:52 AM   #514
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Good decision. Don not prohibit Notecaddy but limited it a bit!
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Old 06-14-2015, 08:53 AM   #515
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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This is what I'd characterize as the 'Lance Armstrong argument', which amounts to "I only resorted to taking drugs because everyone else was taking drugs. I still had to work my butt off to make sure I got the most out of the drugs."

Yea you can interpret it as an Armstrong Argument, but the difference on that is that Stars allowed NC or some of the other software ( and drugs were prohibed from the very beginning on), and then after several years they have to think about if its legal to use in play. Only why some players say like in Skiers example he has an edge build up with his tool that is so huge that you can crush your way up too nosebleeds, thats unfair.

Everybody can make such an gameplan and put it into software do math calculations how does run Range X vs Range Y. How does Villains Range conect to the Flop ect. And that is whats all about to connect the dots together. What does it help when NC says Villain fold 58 % to my cbet on A high Flop it only tells me that but to read that and make the right move against that you only get with learning what to do in
that kind of situation.


We live in 2015 can talk with watches, cars are parking automaticlly ect. ect. So dont think too much what do hud or software do with Poker its just
the run of time.

Lets see what stars decision would be, no problem with anything.
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Old 06-14-2015, 09:01 AM   #516
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by thunderbolts View Post
Are you aware of any other HUDs/extensions to NC that would present information according to action? No need to name them if you're wary of being seen to disparage (or indeed promote) competitors; I'm sure others will pitch in.
This can't be done with NC. Was already stated a few times in this thread and it hasn't changed meanwhile: NC can't present information according to action.
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Old 06-14-2015, 09:24 AM   #517
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

re: notecaddy

I think in order for these apps to be allowed they should be coded to make it impossible to have hands appear in the hud that were not played vs the screenname using the hud.
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Old 06-14-2015, 09:25 AM   #518
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Only why some players say like in Skiers example he has an edge build up with his tool that is so huge that you can crush your way up too nosebleeds, thats unfair.
Maybe that edge comes more so from the fact that he didn't market and sell it to the public and a limited amount of people are using it rather than the programs overall capability?

Imagine if PT4, HM2, or notecaddy or "fill in the blank" software was viewed and allowed by PokerStars yet kept private and not sold to the public. Those players using that software would also gain a fairly significant edge over all the people not using it.

Btw, as I stated in an earlier post I'm in no way arguing that Skier should feel obliged to market and sell his software/charts to the public if they are to be accepted. As long as it's approved software by PokerStars he should be allowed to use/market them any which way he feels is best. That's his property right.
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Old 06-14-2015, 09:30 AM   #519
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by thunderbolts View Post
Thanks, that's helpful.

My immediate reaction is that your software doesn't sound "dynamic" in the sense of what Stars should be attempting to ban here. I use some vsHero stats (or pop-ups) in my own HUD, which is simply the result of playing around with HM2 a little.

Are you aware of any other HUDs/extensions to NC that would present information according to action? No need to name them if you're wary of being seen to disparage (or indeed promote) competitors; I'm sure others will pitch in.
First, I don't know if your pro or anti NC but regardless your civility is very appreciated.

I am unaware of any other programs (either private or public) that can be used with NC or, even completely on their own, to give the type of dynamic advice that Stars prohibits. Which isn't to say they don't exist, just that I'm not aware of them.

I didn't make it clear in my first post, but I'm 100% in agreement with Stars rules/stance as I understand them.

IMO,HUDs should be allowed to parse past play as much as they want and present that data in any way they want. HUDs can not be allowed to give in game advice. They can not use your holdings or table actions and give advice. That is an extremely clear line. Whatever the line is I want that line to be clearly defined and enforceable.
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Old 06-14-2015, 09:31 AM   #520
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Absolutely ridiculous how many people are arguing that notecaddy should be banned whilst clearly having no idea whatsoever about it.

It's simply a tool that allows players to tweak the presentation of the same stats that everyone (who uses a hud) has access to. It does not offer advice on what plays to make, in real time or otherwise.

Please Pokerstars, don't listen to the droolers demanding that all software be indiscriminately banned, it's completely absurd.

On an additional note, it's pathetic to target notecaddy when seat scripting is running rife and doing far more damage to the games.

Oh, one more thing. Given Pokerstars shocking handling of the recent PLO botting scandal, I would have 0 faith in any of these bans even if they were implemented. We'd just end up with masses of dishonest players continuing to use these tools, and stars completely failing to do anything about it.
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Old 06-14-2015, 09:40 AM   #521
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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I can see that PokerStars starts looking at a right direction. I think PS realized that the main reason why online poker traffic is declining is because it's not a fan anymore for a recreational players. But if you think a while... why it would be. Recreational players want to play for fun. They don't want to study the game because many of them study hard enough at University. They don't want to work hard on improving a game as they do enough hard work at their own work. And what is the most important, they don't want to constantly loose money against of regulars who are armed and experienced in using software which gives them big advantage.

Loosing money in poker is never a fun. I think most recreational players realize that if they want to compete on regular basis they have to buy and learn how to use a tracking software, a hud and so on. But online poker should be a fun for them. They should just open account, deposit money and play. It's not a fan anymore if they have to pay extra money and spend extra time how to use HEM or PT. It's not a fan if they are being hunted by bamhunter. It's not a fan if they have to learn for to use and interpret every single statistic on a HUD. But even if they do learn, majority of recs would have no chance against of pros for whom poker in the only job.

If I was to make a decision I would ban all 3rd Party software. At least for a few reasons. I believe that banning 3rd Party software would be a biggest news in online poker for a long time, bringing a lot of attention and obviously new players to PS. PS would loose some regulars as well, but in my opinion getting rid of nitty grinders and bumhunters would be only positive for PS.
PS recently has sighed Neymar and Ronaldo. I'm sure it brought some new players to PS. So the question is what you are going to do with them. Do PS want to let them to be eaten by regs with advanced software?
If you ban all 3rd Part software, non of the software provider will get a reason to think that PS was unjustice with them, as you haven't banned just their. You have banned all.

I think PS could provide own tracking software with some basic HUD, so nobody has to spend extra money. I think Carbon provide a basic HUD for free. But to be faie, I dont think PS will have enough courage to ban them all, especially the HUDs. But if they don't rcs will be leaving to the site like Unibet, so PS will have to do eventually. But that might be a bit too late.

I wish PokerStars to make a right decision, even if it has to be dramatic and painful for some people.

But online poker should be fun for them... says who?

If you wanna play for fun then go play zynga poker or with playmoney.
If you want to play slot machines theres sites for that too.

If everyone plays equally good/bad then everybody will loose rake to the site.
Same system as the slotmachines. 78% payback means 22% loose.

Poker is a zero sum game and the very nature of it is that for one to win money another have to loose money.
So it will never be an "all can win" game.

In every competetive setting "recreational" partitioners will be at a disadvantage. Should be common sense.
Thus those ppl will have to adjust their expectations when sitting down with real money.

There is a very fitting quote from Danny de Vito in "One flew over the Cuckoo's nest"
After Jack Nicolson win all their money and cigarettes and the game is closed he says "But how are we gonna win our money back?"

You don't. Thats the whole reason we played the game from beginning. To win money and keep them.
Else the whole exercise would be pointless.

A fair game is when everybody starts the same not ,as commonly misunderstood, when everybody finish the same.
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Old 06-14-2015, 09:46 AM   #522
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

As countless others i received the email from notecaddy urging me to come defend their business here(they are making bank.)

As most that received the email, i agree with any complete ban. I have a few guys who received it and do not post on 2p2 that also agree with the complete ban. Those guys all bought the 300$+ extra package from Ajackson(making bank) or similar(also making hundred's of k's per year killing the games).

Good regs will keep making money without such programs. ****ty ones will disappear. Leeches (coaches/hud makers) will earn less. It's a win/win.
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Old 06-14-2015, 09:52 AM   #523
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Okey since i got a nice email from notecaddy i might as well put my 50c in.

First off for those who want NC banned but keep the HUDs, those two are pretty much the same thing, with NC being more advanced. Its hard to draw a line to how useful your HUD can be. IMO if you ban NC your forced to ban regular HUDs as well.

Second point of HUDs being available to everyone for low price is simply not true. Most finsh are unaware of any 3rd party programs at all. Whats more is that a good NC HUD this days with everything you need cost close to 1000$, unless your willing to invest 200 hours in, which i definitely dont consider cheap for a rec player. On top of that you need a 2000$ computer to actually run it. Most fish play on their iphones.

Whats even more relevant is that fish dont even want to use HUDs. They are here to play cards, not doing statistical analysis of betting frequencies.

Imo HUDs would be banned long ago, but when you think about who profits most from them its easy to guess why they're not. I mean regs don't really profit from them, since most of the regs use them its pretty much even playing field and they really dont give you that much of an edge vs the fish, given that on small sample sizes most stats are irrelevant.

Who really profits from them is PS, since it easier to regs to multitable, therefor fish to reg ratio is worse, more hands get played reg on reg where the edge is minimal and most of those $$$ get converted to rake. The ones profiting the most off huds is pokerstars.

Im not sure why everyone has problem with seating scripts. I dont think they make the fish being hunted anymore so then they would otherwise. Instead of 3secs to fill a table on nl200+ it would take like what, 10 seconds at most?

In the end its really pointless to even be asking the regs opinion at 2+2, given as mentioned before everyone's going to support what ever program they use.

As for enforcing any bans i think its pretty much impossible to ban any program that helps you in your after game analysis, since you can just easily put them on different computer without pokerstars installed. As for while playing, im not sure how much spyware they can use to detect the use of illegal programs, thats the question for a their tech team, but given they cant detect bots i wouldn't get my hopes up, and banning 3rd party programs would hurt honest regs and give an even bigger advantage to those willing to cheat.

But inn the end of the day they should be asking the recreational players opinions, after all thats where we all make our money from including pokerstars. And fwiw i think at least 90% of them would be against the use of any 3rd party programs.
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Old 06-14-2015, 09:53 AM   #524
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by MX210 View Post
As countless others i received the email from notecaddy urging me to come defend their business here(they are making bank.)

As most that received the email, i agree with any complete ban. I have a few guys who received it and do not post on 2p2 that also agree with the complete ban. Those guys all bought the 300$+ extra package from Ajackson(making bank) or similar(also making hundred's of k's per year killing the games).

Good regs will keep making money without such programs. ****ty ones will disappear. Leeches (coaches/hud makers) will earn less. It's a win/win.
Gotta love those satisfied customers :-)

Am I the only one that finds NoteCaddy advocates funny when they claim it is not a hugely powerful tool that gives them an advantage but seem to be wetting themselves in case their player specific in game advice is restricted?
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Old 06-14-2015, 09:56 AM   #525
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Absolutely ridiculous how many people are arguing that notecaddy should be banned whilst clearly having no idea whatsoever about it.

It's simply a tool that allows players to tweak the presentation of the same stats that everyone (who uses a hud) has access to. It does not offer advice on what plays to make, in real time or otherwise.

Please Pokerstars, don't listen to the droolers demanding that all software be indiscriminately banned, it's completely absurd.

On an additional note, it's pathetic to target notecaddy when seat scripting is running rife and doing far more damage to the games.
I agree (*). This, along with proposing banning of HEM/PT and HUDs makes me believe that the real purpose is dumbing down everything, in the name of "leveling the playing field", because "the games got tougher".

As an example, let's get soccer, another zero-sum game. Today's soccer is tougher than the soccer played in 1900, but did we even hear at least once something like bohoho! Soccer got tougher in the last years! Let's ban coaching, let's destroy all the theory books, let's kill Pep, Mourinho and Ancelotti!? I guess not. The same goes for poker. Yes, poker got more competitive, because more and more serious people are interested in this game.

Variance in poker is larger once the playing field evens, but the same is in the final stages of the World Cup, right? One failure by Romero to stop a shot meant that Argentina lost the Final and Germany went home with the title. Small details...

The playing field is level, my dears. Everybody who wants can invest in his poker education. The amount for investment is as small or as large as one wants or affords. So, what's the fuss about it? Yes, the fish don't know about these programs, but they don't care about them; otherwise they would buy them. They don't care about them, because all they care is to have a little fun in the sun. For them, there is no difference if they lose 30$ at poker or they spend the same amount for a night out. Technically, the 30$ are lost money.

Why should we ban HUDs? They are very useful and no person in their right mind can track all the 50 other villains at their 6 tables of FR (of course, the number varies with the # of tables they play and if the games are FR/6max/HU. I have hands on a guy, he may, or may not have hands on me. All it's fair.

In conclusion, my opinion is that HEM/PT, HUD and NoteCaddy should not be banned. There is no real reason to.

(*) - The only software I used, from those mentioned in this topic, are HEM and NoteCaddy, so I will talk strictly about them.
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