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Old 06-11-2015, 12:51 PM   #26
obviously.bogus
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by PokerStars Steve View Post
A. The following types of tools and services are prohibited at all times:
1. Any tool or service that shares hole card data with other players or services is colluding, and is prohibited.
______i. Hosting live streams on Twitch and other similar services is not considered as sharing hole card data.
I think this needs fleshing out. What distinguishes Twitch from prohibited hole card sharing?

Is it the fact that its "public", and if so would an obscure Elbonian site that no-one outside of Elbonia had ever heard of be considered "public" or the tool of an Elbonian hole card sharing cartel?

Is it the delay? If so, what would be the required minimum delay?
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Old 06-11-2015, 12:55 PM   #27
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Rant View Post
How can these rules possibly be enforced?

Doesn't this just limit ethical players to having a disadvantage against unethical players who have virtually no risk of being caught?

It would be better for everyone if there were no software aids but I just don't see how it can be enforced.
They have every risk of being caught pretty much 100%. PokerStars have the ability to detect what software you are running while using the PS client. If you load up Stars while using software that violates their terms you will be greeted by a warning message & asked to email them with your explanation & then be issued a warning.
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Old 06-11-2015, 12:55 PM   #28
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Back to the roots. Good job!
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Old 06-11-2015, 01:03 PM   #29
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by OditeRussia View Post
They have every risk of being caught pretty much 100%. PokerStars have the ability to detect what software you are running while using the PS client. If you load up Stars while using software that violates their terms you will be greeted by a warning message & asked to email them with your explanation & then be issued a warning.
This is the problem though, they don't have the ability to detect software that someone is committed to keeping hidden or simply running on a second PC
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Old 06-11-2015, 01:05 PM   #30
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by OditeRussia View Post
They have every risk of being caught pretty much 100%. PokerStars have the ability to detect what software you are running while using the PS client. If you load up Stars while using software that violates their terms you will be greeted by a warning message & asked to email them with your explanation & then be issued a warning.
The "software" that sparked this issue - wild guesses as to the nature of Skier_5's program - do not require to be running on the same PC as Stars, or even on a computer with an Internet connection. Or even a computer at all - see chart screenshot above.
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Old 06-11-2015, 01:13 PM   #31
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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NoteCaddy as is would require changes. It is permissible for HUDs to filter / drill down via street, but not by action facing or hole card / communicate card values.
I'm trying to understand what you mean here so I can ensure expedient compliance but am a little confused.

"by action facing" wouldn't that eliminate most HUD stats (e.g. 3 bet is versus a raise). Or do you mean show stats based on what's happening in the current hand? More specifically, someone 3bets and we see his stats that pertain to 3bets etc... If that's what it is then NC is already compliant as it makes no attempt to filter based on any actions in the current hand.

Quote:
communicate card values
I need more clarification here if at all possible
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Old 06-11-2015, 01:19 PM   #32
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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When a punishment for breach is several times as severe as the gain from breaching the rule it's quite easy to make people indifferent or worse to breach.
'Punishment' X 'likelihood of being caught' >= 'profits'

Unfortunately:

1) 'likelihood of being caught' is very small.

2) 'Punishment' is limited to Poker Stars balance confiscation and a ban. No further punishment is possible in a lot of the world. It is possible to purchase or borrow an identity and get a new Poker Stars account.
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Old 06-11-2015, 01:19 PM   #33
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Sreti: I'm sure he means "community card values"

However I have similar questions on this part. In PT4 (and HM no doubt) it's pretty easy to make a stat "check raise % monotone flop" or "Barrel turn that completes flushdraw", etc. Are these now banned statistics? Or moreso you can have these stats but not redraw the hud to show only these when a monotone flop appears, or a turn brings the third of a suit? If it is acceptable to have them in default hud but not hidden and shown automatically, is having them in a popup also allowed? In which case, may as well allow full auto display tbh.
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Old 06-11-2015, 01:20 PM   #34
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Rant View Post
How can these rules possibly be enforced?

Doesn't this just limit ethical players to having a disadvantage against unethical players who have virtually no risk of being caught?

It would be better for everyone if there were no software aids but I just don't see how it can be enforced.
Unfortunately, this.

Programmers can easily make "clones" of some of the apps that are to be placed on the prohibited list, in order to hide their use of them. Changing the rules drives potential cheats to mask their software, or to use black market software that is isn't even on a list.
It also strikes me that banning the likes of Pokerstove (lol) while allowing the continuing use of HUDs, seating scripts and apps like Sharkystrator completely misses the point.

It seems to me that the proposed rules changes would just help HuSnG.com cartels stay in business while recreational players continue to get crushed. Forgive my cynicism, but Skier found a way to beat the cartels, and it seems Stars wants to ban his software, but not theirs.

I suspect the the majority of customers want ALL software aids banned, including HUDs. The problem is not going to go away, and altering some of the rules as part of a PR exercise will likely achieve virtually nothing.
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Old 06-11-2015, 01:23 PM   #35
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by _dave_ View Post
Sreti: I'm sure he means "community card values"

However I have similar questions on this part. In PT4 (and HM no doubt) it's pretty easy to make a stat "check raise % monotone flop" or "Barrel turn that completes flushdraw", etc. Are these now banned statistics? Or moreso you can have these stats but not redraw the hud to show only these when a momotone flop appears, or a turn brings the third of a suit? If it is acceptable to have them in default hud but not hidden and shown automatically, is having them in a popup also allowed? In which case, may as well allow full auto display tbh.
What you're saying seems to be consistent with the main text of the new rules but this confuses me because NC doesn't show stats based on what flop came or what actions were taken etc. Once the hand starts they are 100% static. It's something that, while it may not have been against the rules, I always felt it crossed the line of what made me comfortable and therefore never went that direction.

Edit: In conclusion I am strongly in favor of these rule changes but posit that NC does not violate them in any way.

Last edited by SretiCentV; 06-11-2015 at 01:46 PM.
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Old 06-11-2015, 01:26 PM   #36
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by PokerStars Steve View Post
As evidenced by recent forum discussion, the topic of third-party software in online poker is a highly complex and contentious issue.



Recognizes the correct answer when told
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Old 06-11-2015, 01:44 PM   #37
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Rant View Post
'Punishment' X 'likelihood of being caught' >= 'profits'

Unfortunately:

1) 'likelihood of being caught' is very small.

2) 'Punishment' is limited to Poker Stars balance confiscation and a ban. No further punishment is possible in a lot of the world. It is possible to purchase or borrow an identity and get a new Poker Stars account.
Let's remember that once a strategy is identified as correlating to one of these softwares (in complex games), P(caught) shoots up for every individual. It is only for new strategies that P(caught) is low, and those are naturally much harder to create software for than other games. It does seem like the games with relatively small game trees (HUHTs, possibly spins) would need to be removed, though, as otherwise strategy-based analysis makes it far too likely in those games for legitimate players to be caught. Also, in some countries (it seems that some of the bots are in the UK from recent posts in the MSNL thread), there is the possibility of contractual claims which could recover the entirety of the profits made, and possibly criminal charges if there is any way of identifying the individuals behind the bots.
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Old 06-11-2015, 01:48 PM   #38
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Lets say you will ban multiple softwares (dont understand why notecaddy is there, probably for some advanced functions i dont use/know).... the result will be, that these softwares will be tweaked and used by some players which will bring them significant advantage over the players which wont use those softwares, so basically almost everyone. You can complain that they are risking the ban etc. but lets be real, if this will be done correctly ps will never find out most likely.

From my point of view its really hard to simply ban everything. If you pick the - in my opinion - correct way to ban just "some" softwares it should be really carefully considered and said publicly in advance once the decision is made.
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Old 06-11-2015, 01:53 PM   #39
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I'm glad these rules hae been opened up for discussion. There are a couple of things on this one that I think need filling out somewhat.

First: how to check the data used and

Second: going a bit further to limit the dynamic street by street advice provided by some profiling tools in order to make them less powerful and thus deliver a closer to level playing field.

Quote:
A. The following types of tools and services are generally acceptable:
....
3. Tools and services that profile your opponents, but make use of only information which you have accumulated through your own play
Checking the Data
The trouble here is that there appears to be no enforcement mechanism regarding the data used for this once the HUD or Scanner/Autoseater is hooked in to a local database rather than a subscription service online. Currently you have no way to check that the data is the player's or not.

I would propose that software in this category to be on the authorised list rather than the banned list would need to allow Stars access to the data being used for the player(s) being played against - this could then be checked against the software user's record of play at Stars. IF the software user has more data than should be available to them then it would be clear that the rules are being breeched.

The check would also need to include a check of automated flags set manually potentially using a larger data set and then imported as notes, buttons, colour codes, flashing lights, soundclips or anything else that in play offers advice not from imported data but rather the conclusions based upon illegal data analysed away from the table or provided by others. Those automated playing flags are at least as important as the basic hand data figures shown in play.

This would require the active cooperation of s/w suppliers wanting to be on the Stars approved list.

The TOS for the player would need to be amended to allow this and the above summary explained in further detail, maybe elsewhere, with a technical standard for suppliers.

Too Powerful/Too Dynamic
Tools like Notecaddy and NoteCaddy Edge as well as some HUDs provide dymanic street by street information, all nicely colour coded that offers in game, in hand, in street advice that is both dyamic by street and tailored to opponents and specific in game situations.

This is just too powerful, it allows too much info, or rther too much ADVICE to be displayed clearly specific to that player and that street, plus of course position.

My proposal is that the HUD or other S/W tool must be non dynamic whilst the player is sat at the table. No changing it by street, no changing it by position. The basic simple information that now seems to be the new standard would be fixed for the session, or rather whilst the player is sat in the game. The player could customise that info to their needs, preferences or requirements but it would be static. This would prevent players using dozens of different dynamic advice flags and instead return us to displaying the simple information or long hand notes.

For clarity, yes I also mean getting rid of scatter graphs and the like chosen for display only at specific points in the hand - if the information is too much, too complex to display for every hand and every street then it is not compliant with rule No 1 for permitted software

Quote:
1. Tools and services that simply report basic game state information, such as pot odds or absolute hand strength.
or rule No2

Quote:
2. Tools and services that are static reference material and basic in nature, such as a single table-based starting hand chart.
Allowing it to be sophisticated, street specific and dynamic just because it is (in part) based upon data gathered legitimately is just not right. It should remain fairly basic and above all static in format (updating the data displayed post hand as new data received wld be OK).

This second one is likely to annoy some, not least suppliers, but it is basically the same reason for updating the rules as the recent discussion - the software has become too powerful, it has become in game advice.
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Old 06-11-2015, 01:56 PM   #40
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Tools like Notecaddy and NoteCaddy Edge as well as some HUDs provide dymanic street by street information, all nicely colour coded that offers in game, in hand, in street advice that is both dyamic by street and tailored to opponents and specific in game situations.
This is a lie and will be a lie no matter how often you repeat it. It seems that Goebbels may have been at least half right in that pokerstars seems to believe you so good job with that one
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Old 06-11-2015, 01:57 PM   #41
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Great idea! Please, just do it!
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Old 06-11-2015, 02:00 PM   #42
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Let's kickstart this discussion. Steve can you please clarify where the following examples of charts which I pulled off of google image search would fall under Pokerstars' new rules:

1.

2.


3.


4.


5.


6.


7.
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Old 06-11-2015, 02:03 PM   #43
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Richas View Post

Too Powerful/Too Dynamic
Tools like Notecaddy and NoteCaddy Edge as well as some HUDs provide dymanic street by street information, all nicely colour coded that offers in game, in hand, in street advice that is both dyamic by street and tailored to opponents and specific in game situations.

This is just too powerful, it allows too much info, or rther too much ADVICE to be displayed clearly specific to that player and that street, plus of course position.
The data doesn't change which NoteCaddy Edge shows during a hand. You're suggesting it brings something up when a certain situation occurs, notifying you. That's not the case at all. All the data it displays is data which has happened before the hand has been played.
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Old 06-11-2015, 02:04 PM   #44
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Richas View Post
Too Powerful/Too Dynamic
Tools like Notecaddy and NoteCaddy Edge as well as some HUDs provide dymanic street by street information, all nicely colour coded that offers in game, in hand, in street advice that is both dyamic by street and tailored to opponents and specific in game situations.
A wall of text....but you have no clue and your claims in regards to NoteCaddy are outright wrong. Talking about things from which you have no clue doesn't make you look smart. When you have no clue it's sometimes beneficial to just shut up.....just an advice
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Old 06-11-2015, 02:10 PM   #45
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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This is a lie and will be a lie no matter how often you repeat it. It seems that Goebbels may have been at least half right in that pokerstars seems to believe you so good job with that one
It's your own adverts, the badges you sell, you know the ones that you say guarantee a specific action against a specific player in a specific situation are profitable. I won't dig out the quotes again.

Now either
1) Your adverts are a lie
2) Dynamic street specific advice is being provided - either by you or additional add on sellers.

So the Goebbels here is either your marketing or you now.

You can quibble the language if you like but the fact is that the third party S/W tools are too powerful, they prevent a level playing field and a clue to that is the screams of anguish that players that comply with the new rules will be at a disadvantage to those going beyond them.

That supposedly none existent boost (according to you but not your marketing) is of course nothing compared to the main proposition of third party s/w vs no third party s/w but hey ho, the more the regs moan that their toys might get clipped the more it shows that they do provide an unfair advantage.
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Old 06-11-2015, 02:13 PM   #46
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by nostrakhan View Post
The data doesn't change which NoteCaddy Edge shows during a hand. You're suggesting it brings something up when a certain situation occurs, notifying you. That's not the case at all. All the data it displays is data which has happened before the hand has been played.
Do badges displayed change by street? If not then they are static so would be fine under my proposal.

If it is static during play then it fits my proposal.
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Old 06-11-2015, 02:16 PM   #47
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Richas View Post
Do badges displayed change by street? If not then they are static so would be fine under my proposal.

If it is static during play then it fits my proposal.
So crazy how many times you've made the accusation and yet you don't know this. Of course no NC feature changes during a hand. That would 100% not be acceptable regardless of Stars' rules
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Old 06-11-2015, 02:18 PM   #48
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Richas View Post
Do badges displayed change by street? If not then they are static so would be fine under my proposal.

If it is static during play then it fits my proposal.
Badges, notes, stats made with NC can not change by street, board, number of opponents........
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Old 06-11-2015, 02:18 PM   #49
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Richas View Post
Do badges displayed change by street? If not then they are static so would be fine under my proposal.

If it is static during play then it fits my proposal.
It appears there is a popup.



I'm a bit unclear as to what your proposal is? How do you want to decide if reference material is or is not ok?
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Old 06-11-2015, 02:22 PM   #50
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by skier_5 View Post
Let's kickstart this discussion. Steve can you please clarify where the following examples of charts which I pulled off of google image search would fall under Pokerstars' new rules:

1.

2.


3.


4.


5.


6.


7.
are these not just charts?
he is talking about software running while you are playing
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