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Old 06-13-2015, 01:34 PM   #401
skier_5
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by manigottaeat View Post
I didn't know what everyone was talking about with regards to skier's software so I googled and read some articles. I still can't determine if anyone, aside from those who use it, know exactly what it does. I don't understand how NC and that software are even being compared but I am not very familar with HUSNGs so maybe I'm just missing the way in which they are similar.

Anyway, NC doesn't seem to break any of the new ToS that are being proposed so I don't understand why it is on the list of programs that would be affected.
Whatever you do, do not use google for your source of information on this. It's just a bunch of click hungry poker news websites which regurgitated the original hyperbolic and false impression giving husng.com article.

Read the 2p2 thread instead: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...tware-1533249/

The most important posts in that thread are:
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=432
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=624
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=672
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=673
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=674
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=724
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Old 06-13-2015, 01:39 PM   #402
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Stars, bring us back to the classic days of hudless poker.

Wouldn't it be easy to fix everything just by making it hard as hell to attain hand histories, similar to Bovada?

You could create a "my play history" page that tracks all hands and results on a pokerstars.com branded web page, but make those hands very difficult to rip off the site and import into software. Or make them only accessible 24hrs after a session, etc.

As someone who has preached about how bots will destroy online poker, a massive, unprecedented change in how information is distributed (hand histories), is the only way to drastically slow this inevitable process.
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Old 06-13-2015, 01:42 PM   #403
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by cneuy3 View Post
I'm fine with you having kept everything to yourself and/or players you felt the need to share it with for whatever purpose; financial or friend. You worked very hard to develop it and in no way should you be forced to make it openly available to the public if that's not in your best interest. Most of the training sites/other commercial software that is currently on the market is so in the creator/seller's best interest. They didn't magically make it available to the public because they wanted/cared to level the playing field against cheats/or really care about giving their customers an edge over certain competition not using their software. They did so to make $ from selling it. If your choice is to not sell it to the public them I'm fine with it as long as it doesn't violate PokerStars T@C and is approved by them.
I obviously agree with this stance, but it has been repeated in this and the other thread a few times that such software should be required to be made public as it's an unfair advantage otherwise. I really think that we should be looking to define what 'fair' is here since the word is thrown around a lot. I will start:

Fair is when everyone has the same set of rules to abide by and which are equally applied.
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Old 06-13-2015, 01:46 PM   #404
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Classic Stars. What better way to appear like you care about the games, than to fix a problem that impacts your own bottom line the least. Bot detection/high rake/seat scripting should all be way higher on the list, but solving those problems involves admitting to their own incapabilities so I can see why they would go after 3rd party software.
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Old 06-13-2015, 01:49 PM   #405
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Hi,

I do not understand how actually Leak Buster could be used while playing to get any advantage, I do not believe one is using it during actual play.
I actually believe it would be cumbersome using it while playing.
I believe it is a tool that analyze your play after many hands, so you have a better picture of your overall game.
If it is forbidden to be used during play I do not believe it is an issue.

Also, NoteCaddy - before that software was available I was taking some similar notes to myself. It is just getting it faster so I can now increase my playing volume.

I totally agree about bots, decision making real-time software or colluding software!

I am personally playing poker at the moment totally dependent on HM2
The scores tracked there and the challenges for improving my different areas of the game gave me the motivation to play poker again, having fun, and having my volume increased (just like in other strategy game)

I am not a professional and I am playing poker like a hobby - I could play different video games but I like the challenge in the poker game as I found it now.
Bottom line, if I would not be able to use HM2 as is now, or Tournament Indicator I would probably decrease my playing volume by at least 50% or maybe find a different hobby if I wouldn't be able to find the same challenges

Anyways, good decision! I thought bots and colluding software were already forbidden.
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Old 06-13-2015, 02:15 PM   #406
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Thumbs up Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

A good decision from PokerStars. The comment from Pl@yerABC on husng.com hits it very good:

Quote:
Poker is a very competitive game. I guess that when playing poker, we want to compete - who can outthink the other player, who is better at managing tilt, who can better understand theory and put it into practice... But when playing poker I personally don't want to compete on the IT level - meaning I don't want to compete over who is better at programming a bot in Java, C++, C#, Python or whatever other languages are out there.
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Old 06-13-2015, 02:17 PM   #407
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Husker View Post
I think we need to discuss what is meant by 'dynamic' seeing as many people seem to be using it. Whilst some of the NC packages I've seen, and indeed the one I use, throw around the term dynamic it doesn't refer to any of the information on the hud or popups changing during the hand based on flop texture etc.
So true
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Old 06-13-2015, 02:19 PM   #408
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by poison_arrow_frog View Post
Lets say for arguements sake 100% of poker bots are from Eastern European, why would this be undesirable? Or why would it be unfair or bad for me to want to play in these games purely because 100% of bots are from EE?

Ok 100% aren't. But what if 90% or 80% are?

If this isn't the case then good. As I said it would be bad for legit players to be severely affected, which is why I mentioned stringent verification processes. I know from my own experience I am constantly required to provide documents when I play on an online gambling website, are similar practices used outside of the UK?

If not after the revelations of the last few days why would it be bad for me to want to play in cash games I know are very likely to be bot free?
agreed. post more
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Old 06-13-2015, 02:22 PM   #409
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Waaaghbozz View Post
A good decision from PokerStars. The comment from Pl@yerABC on husng.com hits it very good:
>Poker is a very competitive game. I guess that when playing poker, we want to compete - who can outthink the other player, who is better at managing tilt, who can better understand theory and put it into practice... But when playing poker I personally don't want to compete on the IT level - meaning I don't want to compete over who is better at programming a bot in Java, C++, C#, Python or whatever other languages are out there.
Hi Waaaghbozz

So happy to see you actually join the discussion. Someone showed me a copy of the charts which you give to your students. They're pretty comprehensive. Did you use any software in building these charts? Since you are so against me and what I'm doing, I suppose you will have no problem at all explaining how your charts are so different from mine?

Last edited by skier_5; 06-13-2015 at 02:23 PM. Reason: edited to include post quoted by Waaaghbozz
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Old 06-13-2015, 02:25 PM   #410
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

What really galls me about all of this, is that some random guy made a website with probably very little money (compared to stars), and players using the site are the ones catching these bots. Players have been reporting them for a year apparently, yet Stars just lets it happen. How can 1 dude with incomplete information be more successful than a multi billion dollar company.

I think if stars hired the guy who spotted the bots, and he assured us of new measures stars would put into place to find bots and colluders, I'd be relatively satisfied, which is about as satisfied as I could be in this situation.
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Old 06-13-2015, 02:30 PM   #411
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by manigottaeat View Post
NC doesn't seem to break any of the new ToS that are being proposed so I don't understand why it is on the list of programs that would be affected.
+1
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Old 06-13-2015, 02:48 PM   #412
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Just by way of context, the following email seems to be doing the rounds:

Dear HEM/NoteCaddy user,

A few days ago, a representative of Pokerstars announced potential rule changes that could add severe limitations to what we can use in our HUDs. It is my feeling that online poker as it is today is a level playing field for all players. By having advanced tools available publicly and for a low cost, everyone from micro stakes to high stakes players can benefit openly. Limiting what we can use would create an environment where some users with large amounts of resources could circumvent these rules quite easily. Having poker software available benefits players who are willing to put in effort to study and improve their play. Creating more arbitrary and unenforceable rules only hurts those of us who wish to play by the rules.

Pokerstars has created a thread on the 2+2 forum where we can express our opinions and I beg you to do so. There are several apps being targeted unfairly so please take a look and make yourself heard!
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Old 06-13-2015, 02:54 PM   #413
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by skier_5 View Post
Hi Waaaghbozz

So happy to see you actually join the discussion. Someone showed me a copy of the charts which you give to your students. They're pretty comprehensive. Did you use any software in building these charts? Since you are so against me and what I'm doing, I suppose you will have no problem at all explaining how your charts are so different from mine?
The only charts I've ever sent to my students are exports from coffeecalcs. This programm you can't even use while playing.

Are you sure that I have to explain you the difference between them and your tools?
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Old 06-13-2015, 03:17 PM   #414
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Waaaghbozz View Post
The only charts I've ever sent to my students are exports from coffeecalcs. This programm you can't even use while playing.

Are you sure that I have to explain you the difference between them and your tools?
Nothing I do leads to
Quote:
who can outthink the other player, who is better at managing tilt, who can better understand theory and put it into practice
any less than anything which you do.

My charts are exports from software which is also not used while playing. My chart lookup software simply takes the place of the image viewer or however else you display your charts. I assure you that you will not have to compete on an IT level to have an efficient chart retrieval system. If it actually is as valuable as everyone wants to believe, then the poker software ecosystem will produce one in no time.

The after the hand analysis has no impact on the above items. It is a learning tool to aid the user in better understanding theory.

So in that sense, yes, I could use an explanation.
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Old 06-13-2015, 03:43 PM   #415
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

NoteCaddy notes and stats are static and do not change as the action in the hand changes. The only stat that does change is the Last Action Delay stat which indicates how long it took a person to perform their last action. Otherwise, I do not see a rule that any other NoteCaddy feature could be in violation of.
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Old 06-13-2015, 03:47 PM   #416
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

So will all HUD's be banned ?

Or just post flop/deeper analysis like the notecaddy graphs etc?
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Old 06-13-2015, 04:15 PM   #417
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

+1 to richas and skier in this thread....skier has really shown us how good/dangerous some of the software has become and appreciate his openness in speaking about it

lol @ husker....crying please dont touch my precious software i dont know how to play poker without it
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Old 06-13-2015, 04:24 PM   #418
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I m a notecaddy user and received the mail from notecaddy, but i m not here to support this and other softwares, if i was sure prohibited sotware term and condition could be enforced , i would add my +1 to withdraw most software out of the "allowed list" .
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Old 06-13-2015, 04:30 PM   #419
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assassinato HUD View Post
NoteCaddy notes and stats are static and do not change as the action in the hand changes. The only stat that does change is the Last Action Delay stat which indicates how long it took a person to perform their last action. Otherwise, I do not see a rule that any other NoteCaddy feature could be in violation of.

What Assasinato is saying is the exact truth about notecaddy in 4 lines

. Everybody using Notecaddy know this.

Everybody can install a trial of Notecaddy and see this with his eyes.

I suggest to any member of Pokerstars team who doesn't understand these facts to install a trial version or Notecaddy and see what it really does with your own eyes. If there are guys on Pokerstars team that don't know how to use notecaddy you can ask someone of HM team to help you .

After you guys in Pokerstars team or you Pokerstars Steve finally achieve to understand what Notecaddy software does and what not (it is not really so hard to do ) , I recommend to Pokerstars Steve to edit his first post on this thread , remove any unfair reference to Notecaddy from his post and apologise for that huge mistake, caused obviously from misunderstanding (possibly from your 2p2 rep)

Last edited by fountouris; 06-13-2015 at 04:55 PM.
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Old 06-13-2015, 04:31 PM   #420
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Discussion would be helped if OP provided a definition of the goal of their 3rd party software rules, closest I could find to a goal on current TOS is

"a reasonable compromise between letting players take every possible fair advantage, and prohibiting the unfair ones."

Also, OP could have highlighted the proposed changes rather than just mixing them in with the current rules. Proposed changes are, imo,

1. advanced reference tools banned during play
2. Inclusion of all advanced equity calculators as banned during play
3. Some tweak to notecaddy that no one itt can understand the meaning of


So the change specifically targets skier_5 preflop charts, some part of NC and closes some loopholes with advanced equity calculators.

Skier_5 charts as I understand them clearly are a fair advantage; using software/study away from tables to create a chart is clearly widely accepted. Stars seems to take issue with the large number of charts used, but this seems like a grey area (how many charts is too many?) that's impossible to combat (if I have too many charts printed out next to my PC, now I'm breaking TOS?). Something can be fair advantage and brutally effective edge at the same time, i suspect it's the edge that people take issue with.

As someone who heavily uses HM2/NC I'd still happily see the goal of stars 3rd party software policy read something like "provide a level playing field with no in play strategic advantage from software". Ie ban all software aids (or provide a basic HUD to all within the client) that help decisions in play (huds, NC etc), and keep current rules for offline analysis software.

If this is enforceable, big if, I think this removes the grey areas, treats the majority of your player base (recs) with respect, allows the best players to succeed, makes bots stand out a lot more so hopefully quicker to remove.

Last edited by monkeyheaven; 06-13-2015 at 04:41 PM.
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Old 06-13-2015, 04:32 PM   #421
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by UKZodiac View Post

A few days ago, a representative of Pokerstars announced potential rule changes that could add severe limitations to what we can use in our HUDs. It is my feeling that online poker as it is today is a level playing field for all players. By having advanced tools available publicly and for a low cost, everyone from micro stakes to high stakes players can benefit openly. Limiting what we can use would create an environment where some users with large amounts of resources could circumvent these rules quite easily. Having poker software available benefits players who are willing to put in effort to study and improve their play. Creating more arbitrary and unenforceable rules only hurts those of us who wish to play by the rules.
This.


Software that only show information like NC, etc should be allowed.

That voice chart seems to be something similar like a bot, giving advanced real time advice on how to play a hand, and should not be allowed (by current rules i think).

Pokerstove, Flopzilla, etc, i dont know, they are not going to make a great difference.
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Old 06-13-2015, 04:39 PM   #422
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchfish View Post
I m a notecaddy user and received the mail from notecaddy, but i m not here to support this and other softwares, if i was sure prohibited sotware term and condition could be enforced , i would add my +1 to withdraw most software out of the "allowed list" .
I'm with you. I use software that is currently on the approved list but would be happy to walk away from it all provided the enforcement was rock solid. I would prefer that to the current situation in truth.

However, if enforcement is based on some limited monitoring/prevention + the honour system then it is just PR and the pretence should be dropped.

Therefore my question to Poker Stars is do you have a rock solid way of preventing the use of software that is (or will be) prohibited by your terms and conditions?
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Old 06-13-2015, 04:51 PM   #423
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

What is the issue with badges? Don't really care much about them, but banning that would set a bad precedent. Same with banning pokerstove type software. While it is completely useless during gameplay, it can easiliy be used on another computer / tablet / mobile phone even if it was useful and banned. Same goes for charts. How can you ban something that is printable or accessible from some other source? How ridiculous is that proposition?

Badge is just a visual representation of a number. Same as changing the color of a number. It gives you no advice, provides you no extra information, just saves you the hassle of having an extra stat on the hud, or shaves off a second when you are multitabling. That makes stars money, and does not make someone play better, only makes him play more hands - and probably worse (maybe not even that, just makes the HUD more visually pleasing). If you want people who are winning at 16 tables playing 4 tables or less vs you, with or without a HUD, and you like money, then you are not very smart. You really don't want people watching you play every hand. Notecaddy or any other software can't even compare with the power of someone paying attention.

And can someone define what dynamic means? I don't think anything in Notecaddy is dynamic. It's just static data based on your hand history.

The only reasonable and logical solution I can imagine is: with the rules already in place which are quite good (maybe some minor changes) - make a list of ALL allowed software, and only that software is allowed. Every software needs to be approved by stars. Link to the software sales page in the FAQ, allow the software maker to give a short description. Ban everything not approved by stars and custom made that is not available to the public (that means at a reasonable price - seating script priced 2000$ is not reasonable or fair). And voila, you have a level playing field.

The way this discussion is going, having a 27 inch monitor and being able to see more tables at the same time than the poor guy with a laptop is an unfair advantage, or maybe you have a better, more precise mouse and don't misclick as much, or maybe you are just a smarter person or have photographic memory or can calculate pot odds in your head which is also unfair. Be reasonable, people. If you want to play 40 hands per hour and look the person in the eyes instead of the HUD, drive to the casino. And realize fish don't care about huds, they dont care if you know how much they cbet. And they should not care. If you were playing 1 table vs them with no HUD, they would go broke way faster. The advantage of HUD is the ability to play more tables without sacrificing a ton of EV because of missed hands. That is good for the player - more $ per hour, that is good for the poker room - more $ from rake, and that is good for the fish - you cant exploit him as effectively because you dont see every hand he plays. There is no unfair advantage.

And people who complain about HUDs and stuff, why on earth dont you play on sites where that kind of software is not allowed? Why arent those sites bigger than Pokerstars and why dont they have more fish?
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Old 06-13-2015, 05:07 PM   #424
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Dynamic poker tools can essentially turn a human player into a quasi bot. I commend PokerStars for addressing this difficult issue.

Recreational players are hoping to win, but they expect to lose. These players need to get some enjoyment when they play. They need to win occasionally. They don't need to be destroyed by players with advanced tools.

I think the most important goal for poker sites and professional players is to protect the recreational players. Recreational players are essentially to growth and survival of poker. I'd love to see all poker tools banned from online play.

Limiting the functionality of commercially available poker tools doesn't address the more serious problem of privately developed tools. Open source HUDs and bots can be modified to provide dynamic features and even to automate collusion.

There are possible alternatives to restricting functionality. There could be HUD free games. Players using HUDs could be identified to their opponents. Bots could be allowed but only when clearly identified to their opponents. Some players believe these bots are easy prey.

It can be argued that dynamic poker tools would give players a fighting chance against privately developed tools and bots.

I commend PokerStars for attempting to address this serious problem. The technology to identify commercial and privately developed poker tools is essential to addressing this problem. Restricting the functionality of commercially available poker tools without the technology to identify and restrict privately developed software will only make the honest players more vulnerable to the ethically challenged cheats.
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Old 06-13-2015, 05:17 PM   #425
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Husker View Post
If a golfer uses better clubs than his opponent is this unfair? If a football team has software to do a video analysis on their rivals (that they don't have) is this unfair?

I could go on but don't really need to. Your point seems to be that this software created an uneven playing field. My point is that is not the case given the fact this software is available to all at a relatively inexpensive cost. Anyone can use it
your analogy is a bit off as pro teams who have more resources never play rec/beer league teams...

but...

offer choice then... give players the option to play on software free tables where everyone is on the same field...

then let the 'pros' fight it out with 'hud' and 'tracking' software wars on pro tables...

if the pro's/regs who have the advantage want to play against lesser skilled/informed casual/rec players then u need to level the playing field...

which is why in golf they have the handicap system

no software tables vs software -what tables do u think the fish and new players will go to?

why should they not have that choice?

the more i think about it..... offer choice - i would love to play against a player who doesnt have a clue what my exact fold to xxx is... or what my raise xxx is... would much rather play against a weak player who needs the software to keep them from losing money... and i would much rather be sitting at a table that has more then 1 or 2 rec players..... those that want to play HUD wars? let em

BUT OFFER CHOICE

Last edited by 31Alpha; 06-13-2015 at 05:36 PM.
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