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Old 06-13-2015, 10:44 AM   #351
Sirocko
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by lnternet View Post
Rules banning certain software are extremely difficult to enforcable.

You can try to only allow Pokerstars to be played on you own custom hardware that you ship out. Or only allow play in your own arena. Then you have maybe good control.

But in reality with the high monetary incentive people will find ways to circumvent all bans. What you do by restricting program use is harming the fair players, the casual pros, and feeding into the extreme specialization groups.

The easiest circumvention is multiple PC's, of course. And they can run on one machine as VM's, of course. They have built bots, they have built VPN-VMS that play on .IT next to playing on .EU, and they will build systems that you can't possibly combat.


Now I don't necessarily agree with MicroGaming's decision to make everything anonymous and allow screen name changes, but that will be more efficient than trying to stay on top of the software.
I think this is a big point, it sure will be unfair to casual pros & fair players & the players that really are using this to its maximum will find a way around it and gain an ever bigger edge & preventivt huds & softwares like HEM/PT will makes it even harder to find bots/people cheating, an arena where a lot of players have succeded where PS failed(see PLO-bot)
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Old 06-13-2015, 10:46 AM   #352
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Burnss View Post
youre going to quit stars bcause you cant use pokerstove or notecaddy in game. jfc suck more

wish people would stop thinking so selfishly

I was talking about HUD.
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Old 06-13-2015, 10:50 AM   #353
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by fozzy71 View Post
I only quoted the part that was patently false.

FWIW there is software that gives dynamic information during a hand that is on stars allowed list and not even mentioned in the OP of this thread.
Patently false? "Suspect"? Cutting a quote just before an or and then claiming the first bit is false is pretty mischievous.

Anyway - which s/w on the approved list provides the street by street dynamism? I'd like to review it. It is slightly odd though that I suggest there is dynamic information provided by street, you say that is false and then claim there is software that does this. I find that a little confusing.
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Old 06-13-2015, 10:51 AM   #354
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Husker View Post
I don't know of any software that is covered by that proposal. I think Skier's tool may be but he will obviously be able to tell you better than I can.
That's very reassuring news.

Do you want to join the discussion on whether such software should be allowed in the future?
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Old 06-13-2015, 10:53 AM   #355
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Dear Pokerstars.


Notecaddy is a program keeping automatically the notes that a player want to keep, so the player don't has to type notes.

I want to keep action based notes and I use them on my game, as every other serious players does. By restricting Notecaddy in the way you say you just restrict the number of tables a serious player can play to maximum 4 (so he has to type this notes by hand)

If you do this, I have to quit playing Pokerstars (and Full tilt) and play on the other Poker rooms since no other poker room is restricting notecaddy.

Most high volume players wil do the same also.

About Flopzilla, Odds oracle , pokerstove etc :
nobody is using those tools during playing (except begginer players who don't know even know the basics about the game). Those tools are for studying and plan your own game away from the tables, so "prohibiting" the use of them at the tables changes nothing except that it just sounds stupid. No serious players exists that using those tools during his game, so you can proceed and prohibit the usage of those calculator tools during the game if you want to, nobody cares.

You have also to filter the answers from the two plus two threads, and see what the players who KNOW how to play the game , KNOW what those tools on discussion are and REALLYU PLAY the game on pokerstars is saying about the changes. On a public forum MR NOBODY , MR NOTHING and MR TROLL can express his opinions as happening until know here.

Most high volume REAL POKER PLAYERS don't even watch the forum often. They will learn about notecaddy restrictions just when you force them and then you will have an explosion of 50 pages here of regs quiting the room. Until now they don't even know that this thread exist that's why there are not a lot serious opinions and answers here.

I think you should inform the REAL pokerstars players DIRECLTY by sending the email to them and give them a QUESTIONAIRE to FILL where also their VIP status is appearing. If someone is used to be BRONZELEVEL or CHROME that means that he has no idea what this tool you discuss are, he has never used them and he can't express an opinion on the topic he just don't mind. You should send the questionaire to players starting from at minimum SILVER or GOLD VIP status, those are the players who know the game, make all the traffic in your games and the life of the poker room is depended on them.

It is not that we respect less CHROME or BRONZE level players that we Respect Supernova.

It is about that SOMEONE CAN'T EXPRESS AN OPINION ABOUT SOFTWARE TOOLS THAT HAS NEVER USED IN HIS LIFE, they DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY DO AND HOW THEY WORK and OBVIOUSLY they DON't CARE about the restriction. For example nobody in CHROME level is using advanced/professional Notecaddy notes and nobody cares if you restrict them and most of them they will not answer "I DON'T KNOW" . Many people LOVE talking about things they DON'T KNOW and want to BE REMOVED from the game thinking that can make the game easier for them to play and the will answer YES

You should also DON't care at all about what massive attacking forum TROLLS are saying here as what mr Nobody is saying here.

I am a real poker player and I explain to you , giving my advise for free that don't try to restrict notecaddy, the traffic in cash games will fall immidietelly and forever. Restricting using odd calculators during the game change nothing because no serious player need using them during the game, and looks ...funny , but you are can do it if you like.

Antonios Fountouris (Expert user of most of the software you are referring to and Cash game regular)
I spent some time to read some questions and here are my answers:

-Notecaddy used in it's FULL POTENTIAL without any restriction is NOT violating any rules of the possible new prohibited software policy. Having notecaddy on the list of the programs could be restricted looks like a misunderstanding of someone of Pokerstars team that doesn't use or doesn't understands notecaddy, or maybe a personal misunderstanding of Pokerstars Steve.

-Leak Buster is a tool analysing your hole HM database and finds potential leaks. The software offers no advise we can use during your game and there is no player in the world have ever used leak buster during playing because there is nothing there to see while playing. Having this on the list looks also funny and like a huge misunderstanding of what the functionallity of the program is

-Prohibiting odds calculator tools during play has no meaning , not only (as I wrote above) no serious player exists using them during the game and their functionallity is for self study away from the tables, but also because somebody can have TWO computers . Even if it not usefull at all to run those programs during the game and only a begginer could do this trying to understand the very basics, even if you prohibit the usage ...is very easy for a begginer player who doesn't know the odds against his opponent range while he is holding AK to run Pokerstars in one computer Pokerstove to the second computer. Also it is very easy for a begginer to PRINT pokerstove results to a single page of paper and read it while playing. The same holds to the other caclulators ... Prohibiting these tools during play will not affect the game traffic (like if you restrict notecaddy) but it doesn't make any sence.

One more advise from me is that you should have some of your team members trained on use of this software you reffered to and learn what it is, what it does and how to use it. You could contact members of HM team and ask for some training sessions. It could help you to understand better how those tools and in general how modern poker software work and finally HOW the product you offer (MODERN ONLINE POKER ) IS PREALLY PLAYED. MODERN ONLINE POKER MEANS FULL POTENTIAL OF NOTECADDY. If you restrict anything on Notecaddy , we will not change the way we play online poker. We will change POKER ROOM.

If someone thinks that could restrict Notecaddy, it is just a misunderstanding or he is thinking that it is possible option to send online Poker back to the year 2000.
If some of your team members don't know it yer ... then send a questionaire to your Supernova or SNE elite players and ask them what they think about Notecaddy.

If you need a trainer of how modern poker is played, Alan Jackson for example is very good for this , you could ask him if he has time to train some of your team members, and of course it is vert easy to find more experts on the topic. ( Check http://www.ajacksonpoker.com/)

And I repeat that if you want players feedback, stop asking forum TROLLS what they are thinking about and just create and send a questionaire to your players having a VIP status that shows that are using some of those programs , understand what those programs do and be able (having the knowledge) to express a usefull opinion.

Thanks

Last edited by fountouris; 06-13-2015 at 11:21 AM.
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Old 06-13-2015, 10:54 AM   #356
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by imatexro View Post
I was talking about HUD.
Read OP.

Also can I ask if you came here after reading an email from Notecaddy conflating potential restriction of their product with potential restriction of HEM?
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Old 06-13-2015, 10:59 AM   #357
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Make all tables anonymous, and build a basic HUD into client, that opens automatically when you take seat, or only spread anonymous zoom.
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Old 06-13-2015, 11:00 AM   #358
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Richas View Post
Patently false? "Suspect"? Cutting a quote just before an or and then claiming the first bit is false is pretty mischievous.

Anyway - which s/w on the approved list provides the street by street dynamism? I'd like to review it. It is slightly odd though that I suggest there is dynamic information provided by street, you say that is false and then claim there is software that does this. I find that a little confusing.
I believe holdem indicator (and likely others) give information about the current hand (draw/out odds, etc) but since it only gives percentages and not actual advice (like call/fold/raise) they allow it. I could be wrong as I haven't reviewed this software in some time.

The closest HM2 comes to information about the current hand is live pot odds and street by street HUD (different config per street but information is static from previous hands in the database, not current hand). *I forgot about NC's Timing Tells that uses HM2's Live Tracking but this again is not advice, just data you have to interpret.

Last edited by fozzy71; 06-13-2015 at 11:30 AM. Reason: *
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Old 06-13-2015, 11:02 AM   #359
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by fountouris View Post
It is about that SOMEONE CAN'T EXPRESS AN OPINION ABOUT SOFTWARE TOOLS THAT HAS NEVER USED IN HIS LIFE, they DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY DO AND HOW THEY WORK and OBVIOUSLY they DON't CARE about the restriction. For example nobody in CHROME level is using advanced/professional Notecaddy notes and nobody cares if you restrict them and most of them they will not answer "I DON'T KNOW".
When I played on Stars, I used a complex HUD, replete with about 20 self-designed pop-ups. I've done database-analysis and leak-finding for hundreds of players. I have Notecaddy, and I spent around 50 hours creating my own stat definitions and badges. I used lobby-scanning software to find the softest tables. I use Equilab and other calculation tools every day. I was what you might call a "power-user" of Snowie for a year. As someone fascinated by poker and by AI/robotics, I follow software developments reasonably closely.
I'm in favour of a complete ban of all poker software aids.

One reason I support a complete ban is that it's impossible to draw a line in the sand that doesn't favour one vested interest over another. It does not make logical sense to say "CoffeeHUD is fine, but SkierHUD is not" or "HEM is acceptable, but Notecaddy is not", or "They should ban Need4Seat, but allow Sharkystrator". All of these tools are are designed to do the same thing: to provide a computer-aided edge on the field.

Workable rules are those that are clear and simple. As I see it, there are two ways to create a fair and level playing field based on clear rules that don't penalize anyone for straying into a grey area:

1. No software aids are permitted.
or
2. Everything (up to and including GTO approxabots) is permitted.

I support option one. I fear that the players that want to cling to their HUDs and scripts are voting for their own obsolescence. They remind me of the shop assistant I met in Tesco four years ago that excitedly told me "We're getting the new self-scanning checkouts installed next week." She's now unemployed, obviously.

Last edited by ArtyMcFly; 06-13-2015 at 11:08 AM.
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Old 06-13-2015, 11:10 AM   #360
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by LektorAJ View Post
Read OP.

Also can I ask if you came here after reading an email from Notecaddy conflating potential restriction of their product with potential restriction of HEM?

I don't use NC as I prefer to take my own notes during or after a session. I was talking about HEM. Same applies to PT. I have my own setup for HEM from where I can get the information I consider relevant for profiling a player. Without that information I think ZOOM games would change drastically although I already know some of the tendencies of most regulars at the level I am playing. To me it does not seem that accumulating and using stats gives me an unfair advantage at zoom tables as HEM and PT are not that expensive and are available for anyone.

When I said I would look for another room to play, I was referring only to ZOOM type of tables. Any other type of game, cash or tournament is fine for me without hud as I can profile player tendencies after some hands. But this is impossible at ZOOM. Do you agree ?
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Old 06-13-2015, 11:15 AM   #361
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
When I played on Stars, I used a complex HUD, replete with about 20 self-designed pop-ups. I've done database-analysis and leak-finding for hundreds of players. I have Notecaddy, and I spent around 50 hours creating my own stat definitions and badges. I used lobby-scanning software to find the softest tables. I use Equilab and other calculation tools every day. I was what you might call a "power-user" of Snowie for a year. As someone fascinated by poker and by AI/robotics, I follow software developments reasonably closely.
I'm in favour of a complete ban of all poker software aids.

One reason I support a complete ban is that it's impossible to draw a line in the sand that doesn't favour one vested interest over another. It does not make logical sense to say "CoffeeHUD is fine, but SkierHUD is not" or "HEM is acceptable, but Notecaddy is not", or "They should ban Need4Seat, but allow Sharkystrator". All of these tools are are designed to do the same thing: to provide a computer-aided edge on the field.

Workable rules are those that are clear and simple. As I see it, there are two ways to create a fair and level playing field based on clear rules that don't penalize anyone for straying into a grey area:

1. No software aids are permitted.
or
2. Everything (up to and including GTO approxabots) is permitted.

I support option one. I fear that the players that want to cling to their HUDs and scripts are voting for their own obsolescence. They remind me of the shop assistant I met in Tesco four years ago that excitedly told me "We're getting the new self-scanning checkouts installed next week." She's now unemployed, obviously.
Well said sir. Blanket ban the lot of them. Then see how the whole pecking order will change dramatically. Level playing field. EVERYONE will have to play poker using their own thoughts and memory/skill.
What will happen??? More recs, enthusiasts and casuals may just start reaching final tables every once in a while and double up their stack in zoom which will create more sign ups more longevity and a new lease of life in poker.
Ban ALL software. I can and do multitable upto 10 mtts a night and Im profitable over the last 6 years. I dont use HUDS. I manually note players and I tag them with colours.

Pokerstars has the power to save online poker from extinction if they put a stop to all of these cheating aids. **** their regulars. They may lose some initial rake from hud grinders but in the long run it will prosper.
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Old 06-13-2015, 11:18 AM   #362
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Dear PokerStars Team ,

it seems quite stupid from my perspective what you wrote as permitted and not permitted software. It does not make sense to me the fallowing - you allow things such as HuDs , odds calculator , profiling opponents and so on , but now as software progresses you forbid some of it because "it gives the player TOO MUCH information". I know you are pokerstars but - who are you and how do you decide what too much info is ?

This problem is very very easy to solve because it is binary - either allow all the software as it progresses ( excluding bots ) , or forbid all of it.
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Old 06-13-2015, 11:21 AM   #363
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

it is absolutely not binary.

agree though. how dare they decide what to allow and not allow on their own site.
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Old 06-13-2015, 11:22 AM   #364
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

This **** is so silly. People calling for skiers program banned and then trying to weasel in whatever they use. Also anyone honest is going to get freerolled. Could easily use a "program" or static starting hand charts on a side computer.
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Old 06-13-2015, 11:24 AM   #365
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

skiers software + flop regression model softwares should be allowed, clearly.
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Old 06-13-2015, 11:26 AM   #366
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Stars should just make a hud, (with in there rules) make if free, and give it to all players.
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Old 06-13-2015, 11:38 AM   #367
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by TooCuriousso1 View Post
This **** is so silly. People calling for skiers program banned and then trying to weasel in whatever they use. Also anyone honest is going to get freerolled. Could easily use a "program" or static starting hand charts on a side computer.
Props to the way Skier has handled this whole situation as well, whole lot of class shown from him.
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Old 06-13-2015, 11:42 AM   #368
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by K_rukov View Post
Dear PokerStars Team ,

it seems quite stupid from my perspective what you wrote as permitted and not permitted software. It does not make sense to me the fallowing - you allow things such as HuDs , odds calculator , profiling opponents and so on , but now as software progresses you forbid some of it because "it gives the player TOO MUCH information". I know you are pokerstars but - who are you and how do you decide what too much info is ?

This problem is very very easy to solve because it is binary - either allow all the software as it progresses ( excluding bots ) , or forbid all of it.
Oh the black and white, binary choice, world is so simple.

There is no real distinction between a bot and software telling a human what to do. The Cybot in the anything goes "option" is still a bot.

The other option of banning all s/w has huge implications for the legitimate interests of a site raking regs, a site that needs liquidity and for regs that have a life built upon being able to multitable for many hours. The absolutist "ban all" position is just not possible, it destroys the current industry. Stars cannot do it and regs cannot accept it - plus liquidity dies to the detriment of recs.

Your binary choice is between two imposible options!

The world is grey. We have banned s/w already, what we need is clearer guidelines, limitations on the power of software and new enforcement mechanisms (APIs, site approval of s/w, declerattion of s/w used to other players). Now Stars as a quasi sports regulator can try to do it alone as now, or they can work with real regulators to help use the law to enforce the grey.

IF we have approved s/w that declares itself to the client, that meets social responsibility rules (fair and open) then it is sustainable, indeed it can help wipe out dta cheating as multi tablers without an approved HUD that allows data checks would stand out like a proverbial sore thumb.

Software supply can be regulated - it is already regulated if the software is sold to the site, they need a licence. Stars can move to an environment where approved s/w needs to declare itself to the client and all other software is banned. Later we can move to regulating that software and the suppliers of it and criminalising those that supply non approved software. The legal framework already exists, what is lacking for the gey world of regulated third party software is engagement by sites like Stars and the inaction of UKGC to date on Section 41 of the 2005 Gambling Act.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2005/19/section/41

Quote:
41Gambling software

(1)A person commits an offence if in the course of a business he manufactures, supplies, installs or adapts gambling software unless he acts in accordance with an operating licence.

(2)In this Act “gambling software”—

(a)means computer software for use in connection with remote gambling, but

(b)does not include anything for use solely in connection with a gaming machine.

(3)A person does not supply or install gambling software for the purposes of subsection (1) by reason only of the facts that—

(a)he makes facilities for remote communication or non-remote communication available to another person, and

(b)the facilities are used by the other person to supply or install gambling software.

(4)A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on summary conviction to—

(a)imprisonment for a term not exceeding 51 weeks,

(b)a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale, or

(c)both.
We have the legal framework, we just don't have a regulator that has acted on third party software or a poker operator that has started to work with the regulator on this issue.
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Old 06-13-2015, 11:43 AM   #369
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
When I played on Stars, I used a complex HUD, replete with about 20 self-designed pop-ups. I've done database-analysis and leak-finding for hundreds of players. I have Notecaddy, and I spent around 50 hours creating my own stat definitions and badges. I used lobby-scanning software to find the softest tables. I use Equilab and other calculation tools every day. I was what you might call a "power-user" of Snowie for a year. As someone fascinated by poker and by AI/robotics, I follow software developments reasonably closely.
I'm in favour of a complete ban of all poker software aids.

One reason I support a complete ban is that it's impossible to draw a line in the sand that doesn't favour one vested interest over another. It does not make logical sense to say "CoffeeHUD is fine, but SkierHUD is not" or "HEM is acceptable, but Notecaddy is not", or "They should ban Need4Seat, but allow Sharkystrator". All of these tools are are designed to do the same thing: to provide a computer-aided edge on the field.

Workable rules are those that are clear and simple. As I see it, there are two ways to create a fair and level playing field based on clear rules that don't penalize anyone for straying into a grey area:

1. No software aids are permitted.
or
2. Everything (up to and including GTO approxabots) is permitted.

I support option one. I fear that the players that want to cling to their HUDs and scripts are voting for their own obsolescence. They remind me of the shop assistant I met in Tesco four years ago that excitedly told me "We're getting the new self-scanning checkouts installed next week." She's now unemployed, obviously.
As a veteran grinder, i think it would be fantastic if an enforceable ban on all third-party software was possible. It would present a far fairer playing field but I'm just not sure how realistic that scenario is.

For such a vision to exist, I would imagine players, or at least "non-fun" players (however they are defined, but probably based on volume/stakes), would have to be prepared to give up a little more PC privacy. However I expect more PC savvy players than myself would say there would always be a way around this for the more determined would-be abusers.
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Old 06-13-2015, 11:58 AM   #370
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I am a pro player and I have not really played on pokerstars ever. If you took these steps, and possibly even went further with the bans on software, I would highly consider playing there. This is a very positive step you'd be taking in my opinion and I really hope you go ahead with these proposed changes.
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Old 06-13-2015, 11:58 AM   #371
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richas View Post
..The other option of banning all s/w has huge implications for the legitimate interests of a site raking regs, a site that needs liquidity and for regs that have a life built upon being able to multitable for many hours. The absolutist "ban all" position is just not possible, it destroys the current industry. Stars cannot do it and regs cannot accept it - plus liquidity dies to the detriment of recs...
I know you know your stuff, and you talk a lot of sense, and I understand your reasoning here, however... I would argue -as someone who has played more hands 24-tabling than virtually anyone, for longer than virtually anyone- that as long as a time-bank was adopted by the client, it would still be easy to multi-table, and that the liquidity would still exist close to its current form. (When 24-tabling on my laptop I don't run a HUD (due to CPU issues) and can play with no 3rd party at all other than StarsHelper for its time-bank with no problems at all.)
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Old 06-13-2015, 12:10 PM   #372
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I agree that banning all 3rd party software is easier said than done. I think there are simpler ways to reduce the effects of 3rd party software.

1. Completely transition the Pokerstars lobby to the quickseat version of the website. You pick a game, you pick a stake, you click play and you are seated at a game.

No seat scripts and it reduces casual players fear they are being hunted down drained of cash.

You limited the amount of times someone can enter a new game to prevent abuse (people rejoining game after game after game until they find a very favourable table), e.g. if you have recently left a table you can only rejoin a new table a maximum of 5 times in a 30 minute period.

This still allows people to table select games to an extent but not go crazy and could help stop some of the table camping at high stakes waiting for fish or force the nosebleeds and mid-highstakes into the same games making a healthier high stakes environment.


2. Make it more difficult for people to be bots and not real people. It appears to me bots are constantly being found and banned. How do these botmakers able to have endless accounts?

Is it possible for Pokerstars to require a legitimate passport no. that can be checked and verified? Do they do this already?

If so then the bot masters must have access to a large amount of people who are willing to give up their passport no. and identity for a little cash.

I couldn't imagine this happening much in the UK and Central Europe so is it far more prevelant in Eastern Europe?

It would certainly be bad for legitimate Eastern European players to be victims of these botters, but is player segregation a realistic solution if an unbalanced amount of botters are from there.

Maybe a choice to play with only people from the UK and only from Western Europe. Maybe a choice to play with only people who have gone through a stringent verification process?
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Old 06-13-2015, 12:17 PM   #373
cneuy3
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by MeleaB View Post
For such a vision to exist, I would imagine players, or at least "non-fun" players (however they are defined, but probably based on volume/stakes), would have to be prepared to give up a little more PC privacy. However I expect more PC savvy players than myself would say there would always be a way around this for the more determined would-be abusers.
Also consider that these determined "would-be abusers" would probably make up a relatively small percent of the overall player pool. Especially if Star's was able to implement harsher penalties for such an offense. Star's also needs to probably hire more data analyst to help them more easily find anomalies based in their data that can help them more accurately catch the "would-be abusers".

Point being that if some restrictions or outright bans were placed on 3rd party software I think it's possible that the negatives brought on by the "would-be abusers might be dwarfed by the positive effects on the overall ecosystem in comparison.

Last edited by cneuy3; 06-13-2015 at 12:22 PM.
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Old 06-13-2015, 12:23 PM   #374
Richas
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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I know you know your stuff, and you talk a lot of sense, and I understand your reasoning here, however... I would argue -as someone who has played more hands 24-tabling than virtually anyone, for longer than virtually anyone- that as long as a time-bank was adopted by the client, it would still be easy to multi-table, and that the liquidity would still exist close to its current form. (When 24-tabling on my laptop I don't run a HUD (due to CPU issues) and can play with no 3rd party at all other than StarsHelper for its time-bank with no problems at all.)
The abilities of some never cease to amaze me. Maybe you are right, a new elite non HUD grinder might emerge if there were a ban but I suspect that most cold not do that, at least not profitably.

In any case that risk is not one Stars could take, they can't overnight ban HUDs and TBF a basic HUD does not deliver the leap in capability to exploit that the rest of the s/w delivers. I'll take my chances vs a guy with one HUD view for all players, me vs 240+ specific specialised exploit s/w badges....dead meat, like all recs.

Just trimming HUD/Notecaddy/other capabilities is a business risk for them. (Not a big one, the liquidity will win out) but an absolutist s/w or HUD ban is a complete non starter, and TBF would be an overreaction that punished many regs with no time to adapt - unlike the clipped s/w cpability world, with data checks that I advocate where regs could adapt quite easily.
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Old 06-13-2015, 12:26 PM   #375
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by poison_arrow_frog View Post
Maybe a choice to play with only people from the UK and only from Western Europe.
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