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Old 06-13-2015, 09:45 AM   #326
TheRider
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by LektorAJ View Post
Also lol @ the Notecaddy guy trying to get his users to come here

Really???

It's just getting ridiculous. Are your opinions at least independent or you also get an instructions from a NoteCaddy owner?

I understand you guys in some way, but the question is: should online poker be friendly environment for big majority or only for a small group of NoteCaddy users?
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Old 06-13-2015, 09:45 AM   #327
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Please someone explain what features it has that breach the proposed ToS but should be allowed so we can discuss this properly! Does it change info based on what happens mid-hand?
Stars seem to care a lot about new info/data being supplied mid hand. Apparently NoteCaddy out of the box does not do this, I suspect some dynamic HUDs or some add ons do or will but for me it is not being dynamic between streets that makes it too powerful.

The software checks potentially hundreds of stats for each player, then it dynamically alters the HUD to highlight the key handful for that specific player - the exploits, the dynamism is customising the HUD to each player, presenting tailored information that changes per player.

To limit the power of HUDs players should be able to customise them to show whatever stats they like - but the same stats for each player. No dynamic HUD changes to tailor the ADVICE provided on how to play against that specific player. That's the dynamism that crosses the line IMHO. Adding to that by street, flop texture or hero's hand strength is a bit worse, maybe even a lot worse but it is the first bit - the player tailored in game advice that does enough to be not "fair and open".

Nb: You will see I use "fair and open" quite often - the reason is that those are the regulatory goals of the UKGC and the social responsibility standard that Stars and all UK licenced sites have signed up to.
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Old 06-13-2015, 09:45 AM   #328
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Husker View Post
I've already answered that I don't see what it has that breaches the proposed TOS and you failed to answer when I asked what you think breaches them.

And no, it doesn't change info based on what happens mid hand.
Then why one earth does the company that produces it have a problem with the new ToS?
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Old 06-13-2015, 09:49 AM   #329
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Then why one earth does the company that produces it have a problem with the new ToS?
Do they? I wouldn't know.
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Old 06-13-2015, 09:52 AM   #330
ILUVTHRILL
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Using nc myself but in for banning every possible Software!!!
Let the gto Mega Masters print them $$$
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Old 06-13-2015, 09:55 AM   #331
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Stars seem to care a lot about new info/data being supplied mid hand. Apparently NoteCaddy out of the box does not do this, I suspect some dynamic HUDs or some add ons do ......
Wrong. You really should stop guessing at what software can do if you have no clue.
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Old 06-13-2015, 09:57 AM   #332
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I think you are punishing the people who study and put effort on Poker.
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Old 06-13-2015, 10:00 AM   #333
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Wrong. You really should stop guessing at what software can do if you have no clue.
He's been told this numerous times already by various posters but still keeps on with it.
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Old 06-13-2015, 10:02 AM   #334
Djevelen
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Richas View Post
Stars seem to care a lot about new info/data being supplied mid hand. Apparently NoteCaddy out of the box does not do this, I suspect some dynamic HUDs or some add ons do or will but for me it is not being dynamic between streets that makes it too powerful.

The software checks potentially hundreds of stats for each player, then it dynamically alters the HUD to highlight the key handful for that specific player - the exploits, the dynamism is customising the HUD to each player, presenting tailored information that changes per player.

To limit the power of HUDs players should be able to customise them to show whatever stats they like - but the same stats for each player. No dynamic HUD changes to tailor the ADVICE provided on how to play against that specific player. That's the dynamism that crosses the line IMHO. Adding to that by street, flop texture or hero's hand strength is a bit worse, maybe even a lot worse but it is the first bit - the player tailored in game advice that does enough to be not "fair and open".

Nb: You will see I use "fair and open" quite often - the reason is that those are the regulatory goals of the UKGC and the social responsibility standard that Stars and all UK licenced sites have signed up to.
100% agree with everything Richas said here.
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Old 06-13-2015, 10:09 AM   #335
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I'd like to propose an addition to the rules outlined above. HUDs/Software/etc which contain assumptions/colour coding/feedback/derived information based on population tendencies should not be allowed. Software like this is currently being sold openly. These population tendencies must necessarily be compiled from data mined sources, shared databases, or at least a single database (which is essentially having a derivative of its data shared).

Two prime offenders are the CoffeeHUD and the Spin & Go HUD:

Part of the CoffeeHUD description:
Quote:
Lastly, the HUD is made to be both as aesthetically pleasing and as accessible as possible. Statistics are put in small groups that can be moved according to your preferences. It features an advanced color coding system: each statistic is coded individually. It functions as a leakbuster inside the HUD--it highlights extremes in your opponents’ games. This color coding system also provides advanced theoretical information: pure fold equity to bluff certain sizings, variation from population tendency, and distance from Nash equilibrium ranges at short stacks. You can even use this feature away from the tables to find places where your strategy is exploitable.
Ryan, of HUSNG.com, on the Spin & Go HUD:
Quote:
I understand that Pokerstars feels that shared data is an unfair advantage, and I agree. I think in this case, these products containing derivatives of shared data are giving the ones using it an unfair advantage over those not using it. It's even possible that someone using the coffeehud is playing someone who had 'contributed' to this derived data. Everyone should be on the same page regarding historical data, and having to pay money, or even if it was free, to have knowledge of its availability, to get access to the same historical data is not sufficient. Players should only have information of or based on past hands which has been accumulated through their own play, and their own play only.
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Old 06-13-2015, 10:10 AM   #336
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by fozzy71 View Post
Wrong. You really should stop guessing at what software can do if you have no clue.
Maybe, but if he is wrong about functionality now, other software will come in the future. He is setting out principles of what should and shouldn't be allowed now and in the future and he's right about pretty much all of that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Husker View Post
Do they? I wouldn't know.
bhoylegend already posted this email they sent out:



As a reminder, the proposed change is to ban:

1. Any tool or reference material that offers commentary or advice that goes beyond a basic level, such as stack-size-based starting hand tables, decision trees or heads-up displays that dynamically change based on player action or card values.

Regardless of whether or not the above covers Notecaddy, can anyone give a good reason why the above be allowed or not?

Pokerstars should also ban seat scripting, aka lobby-botting, at the same time. No interaction with the client other than through the hand history.

Quote:
Originally Posted by farreli80 View Post
I think you are punishing the people who study and put effort on Poker.
Study and put effort is not the same as buying "heads-up displays that dynamically change based on player action or card values".
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Old 06-13-2015, 10:11 AM   #337
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Rules banning certain software are extremely difficult to enforcable.

You can try to only allow Pokerstars to be played on you own custom hardware that you ship out. Or only allow play in your own arena. Then you have maybe good control.

But in reality with the high monetary incentive people will find ways to circumvent all bans. What you do by restricting program use is harming the fair players, the casual pros, and feeding into the extreme specialization groups.

The easiest circumvention is multiple PC's, of course. And they can run on one machine as VM's, of course. They have built bots, they have built VPN-VMS that play on .IT next to playing on .EU, and they will build systems that you can't possibly combat.


Now I don't necessarily agree with MicroGaming's decision to make everything anonymous and allow screen name changes, but that will be more efficient than trying to stay on top of the software.
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Old 06-13-2015, 10:15 AM   #338
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by fozzy71 View Post
Wrong. You really should stop guessing at what software can do if you have no clue.
I do love it when someone deciddes that half a sentence is good enough to pronounce WRONG on.

Here is the full sentence, this time with a key bit (that you left out) in bold. Indeed it was precisely that point that you decided to end the quote.

Quote:
Apparently NoteCaddy out of the box does not do this, I suspect some dynamic HUDs or some add ons do or will but for me it is not being dynamic between streets that makes it too powerful.
Again I don't even think that mid street dynamism is important anyway - when the exploit badges are player specific and colour coded by street it scarcely matters if they appear on the turn or if the Turn in game ADVICE is there when the cards are dealt. It is the same damn (player specific)advice! Advice selected and highlighted by the software!
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Old 06-13-2015, 10:19 AM   #339
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by LektorAJ View Post
As a reminder, the proposed change is to ban:

1. Any tool or reference material that offers commentary or advice that goes beyond a basic level, such as stack-size-based starting hand tables, decision trees or heads-up displays that dynamically change based on player action or card values.

Regardless of whether or not the above covers Notecaddy, can anyone give a good reason why the above be allowed or not?

Pokerstars should also ban seat scripting, aka lobby-botting, at the same time. No interaction with the client other than through the hand history.



Study and put effort is not the same as buying "heads-up displays that dynamically change based on player action or card values".
I don't know of any software that is covered by that proposal. I think Skier's tool may be but he will obviously be able to tell you better than I can.
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Old 06-13-2015, 10:19 AM   #340
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I always thought poker would be better without Huds although I don't think I would play on stars anymore if this becomes the case. Better rake back (low stakes grinder) and better fish on other sites I play on stars simply for the software. I hate the fact they might get rid of notecaddy like that is going to change basically anything, man up stars get rid of all software or just leave it how it is!
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Old 06-13-2015, 10:22 AM   #341
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Unibets system seems fair, they have the option to create five different users that you can change from session to session. No huds, no handhistories or any other 3rd party softwares.
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Old 06-13-2015, 10:30 AM   #342
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Dont know why some clowns are complaining... the softwares are open to all and mostly below 100 or free if you open account with sites... this makes it a level playing field.

I agree that in game dynamic advice should be banned but not advice if the player has collected stats before.

Also there will be tons of software's which are not public which will be doing the same things above.

Is poker stars going to catch them all do you have the capability?

To poker stars.

Your whole business depends on volume if people don't get their rois theyll find alternatives i am sure 888 will be waiting with arms wide open and you'll have your tail between your legs by the time its to late.

Do yourself a favour tie up with all the softwares and make them even more cheaper for all players to afford.
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Old 06-13-2015, 10:30 AM   #343
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by LektorAJ View Post
Steve : relating to the OP - a starting hands "sheet" listing actions for all 16732 Omaha hands would go beyond a basic level even though it's doesn't include stack depth. You should take out the bit about stack depth and replace it with the idea that it should be a single sheet - define by the amount of info allowed on it.
I think your proposed solution is much better than what is currently on the table. Clarity is the most important thing for the allowed software list. Having such a subjective rule list is going to create an unlevel playing field as people get different answers or interpretations on different rules. I completely concur that some sort of clear guidelines need to be drawn up. I think that charts are very difficult to enforce (especially for single players executing a strategy exclusive to them) so I think some care needs to be taken on how to form these guidelines. If you make the gap too large, then the honest will suffer at the hands of the dishonest. I don't know where this answer lies, but I do believe it should be considered. I would like a level playing field above all else and given the attention which I will get moving forward I will have to (which I would do regardless) follow the rules to the letter. I would strongly prefer if that gap between what is allowed and what people who are not under the spotlight are doing allows some semblance of that. It's not just me though, recreational players generally have exclusive access to tools/info which are within the TOS so they too could suffer and they can benefit greatly from things like starting hands charts.
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Old 06-13-2015, 10:32 AM   #344
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

This is stupid why would leak buster or leak tracker be banned it has no bearing during a live session ...
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Old 06-13-2015, 10:33 AM   #345
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Assuming we do go down the road of banning certain software but not others:

(I should read the thread first but I haven't, just posting my initial thoughts.)


I believe the distinction between allowed and not allowed is in the depth of filtering of data.

Software displays:
Open raise chart: allowed (A)
Open raise chart with given stacks size: A
Open raise chart against a player with 16% 3bet and 11% call: Borderline
Open raise chart against "lnternet" who plays 14% 3bet 9% call and raises cbets to little: Not allowed (N)


Cbet frequency: A
Cbet freq in 3bet pot: A
Cbet freq in 3b pot on Axx texture: Borderline
Cbet freq in 3b pot on Axx when villain has timed more than 5 seconds preflop: N

You would need a team of judges that are well trained to determine clearly, fairly and quickly if a feature is A or N.

Then I would assume the way this process works is to have all programs banned, EXCEPT ones specifically allowed and linked to on PokerStars.

Then every program would have to apply to be listed as allowed program, including every feature update.
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Old 06-13-2015, 10:34 AM   #346
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

why are software's like NC and flopzilla even being discussed when you can't even prevent/realise 10+ different accounts are all using the same software, which isn't commercially available, to beat MS PLO and take millions of $ out the game?
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Old 06-13-2015, 10:34 AM   #347
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

If Pokerstars wants to ban;
1. Any tool or reference material that offers commentary or advice that goes beyond a basic level.
2.Any tool or service that works off of a central database of player profiles, hands played or private results is prohibited
3. Any tool or service that plays without human intervention (a ‘bot’) or reduces the requirement of a human playing.
4. Any tool or service that offers real-time commentary or advice on the current game state that goes beyond reporting data and statistics.

Then lets add ALL of the seat scripting programs on the to be banned list.
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Old 06-13-2015, 10:38 AM   #348
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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I don't know of any software that is covered by that proposal. I think Skier's tool may be but he will obviously be able to tell you better than I can.
I think what is covered is very unclear, but it seems that Stars feels it does cover quite a bit of existing software (see their list). I don't think it covers my chart retrieval software per say, but it's possible that an efficient chart retrieval tool is redundant based on their new reference material guidelines (which I presume do cover my reference material). I don't understand their terms to cover the after the hand analysis, but again the inclusion of the holy grail of poker makes me think that it somehow might.
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Old 06-13-2015, 10:42 AM   #349
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Richas View Post
I do love it when someone deciddes that half a sentence is good enough to pronounce WRONG on.

Here is the full sentence, this time with a key bit (that you left out) in bold. Indeed it was precisely that point that you decided to end the quote.



Again I don't even think that mid street dynamism is important anyway - when the exploit badges are player specific and colour coded by street it scarcely matters if they appear on the turn or if the Turn in game ADVICE is there when the cards are dealt. It is the same damn (player specific)advice! Advice selected and highlighted by the software!
I only quoted the part that was patently false.

FWIW there is software that gives dynamic information during a hand that is on stars allowed list and not even mentioned in the OP of this thread.
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Old 06-13-2015, 10:44 AM   #350
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

So we can still use HEM and PT, but not note caddy or in game hand/range proponents of that software?

I'm fine with this as long as we can still see stuff like
vpip/pfr and fold to 3 bet/4bet% etc.
As long as we can still see fold to C Bet or C bet/barrell statistics or turn C/R and basic stuff like that then these are potentially a good idea.

Seems like it will affect the kid/higher stakes multi tablers the most.

I think it's fair to say that us 'grinders' rely on HEM and PT because of how many tables we play and without at least the basic stats we wouldnt be able to play 8+ tables and pokerstars income would be hurt.

So can someone confirm that we can still use PT and HEM and basic street statistical info via HUD?
A basic summary of what the OP is suggesting by the Pokerstars rep would be great please...
When I first saw this I was really worried that HEM/ PT and all HUD softeare would be banned.
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