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Old 11-15-2015, 10:02 PM   #3226
GTXR1
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerStars Baard View Post
each statistic may only have at maximum three different colors used, based on two raw-value thresholds
Would you please consider lifting that limit to at least 2 two raw-values thresholds. In the current model you cannot combine low and high end ranges into a single non-base color.
It does not make sense that you're able to do so with the base color but not with the other two colors.

As an example, please allow something like that.:
0-20, 81-100 = color1
21-40, 61-80 = color2
rest = base-color
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Old 11-16-2015, 05:45 PM   #3227
UnlimitedRed
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by xPeru View Post
I got a warning playing with HEM 1 open. HEM 2 remains listed as acceptable for use, why is HEM 1 generating a warning, since HEM 2 is supposed to provide a much greater advantage?
Forcing players into the more advanced HEM 2 because HEM 1 violates a tiny rule.... mission accomplished in reducing the aid provided by third party software?
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Old 11-17-2015, 12:04 AM   #3228
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anyone else decided to give up on online poker. being treated like i'm the problem with the economy and need my balls cut off is so ****ing tilting.

Yes. Our intention is to limit the contextual/implicit advice that sophisticated coloring profiles may provide to the player. That is, each statistic may only have at maximum three different colors used, based on two raw-value thresholds, but the actual colors used may differ between statistics.

what a load of steaming bull*****. where is the god damn line drawn. the arbitrariness of this is what's intolerable. it just makes no god damn sense. my HUD with 20 stats and colour codes is what's holding back the poker economy ? ok sure whatever

contextual/implicit advice ? what advice ? if i make my HUD compliant and set agro parameters to RED and a person's HUD comes up as mostly RED isn't that 'sophisticated contextual/impicit advice', TOWIT: i can tell they're agro without reading a single actual number ? if it isnt - how can you say that my HUD with multiple colour ranges is ? WHERE IS THE LINE DRAWN ????? AND WHY ? why 2 ranges ? why not 3 ? why not 0 ?

quitting online poker over this. no idea where the fk else to play and giving my money to a company that holds me in such contempt is odious.

Last edited by Bobo Fett; 11-17-2015 at 03:26 AM. Reason: Merged 2 posts.
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Old 11-17-2015, 05:39 AM   #3229
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

it's HM or PT who should care about all those HUD restrictions, not the players. The players should only download the latest update, that's it. Why are so many players confused what will be allowed and what not? Just update the software regulary. So much panic for nothing...
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Old 11-17-2015, 08:15 AM   #3230
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by KillingAce View Post
it's HM or PT who should care about all those HUD restrictions, not the players. The players should only download the latest update, that's it. Why are so many players confused what will be allowed and what not? Just update the software regulary. So much panic for nothing...
Holdem Manager and Table Ninja are refusing to update HM1/TN1 to comply with the rules - there is no "latest update" to download for those who are still using those programs.
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Old 11-17-2015, 08:31 AM   #3231
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by The Imp View Post
Holdem Manager and Table Ninja are refusing to update HM1/TN1 to comply with the rules - there is no "latest update" to download for those who are still using those programs.

TN1 and HM1 are allready banned.
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Old 11-17-2015, 08:40 AM   #3232
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by KillingAce View Post
TN1 and HM1 are allready banned.
That was my point. Don't steal my point.
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Old 11-25-2015, 03:45 PM   #3233
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Do most of you just remove Holdem manager 1 and TN1 from your computer since its been banned?
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Old 11-25-2015, 03:51 PM   #3234
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by PaulyJames200x View Post
Do most of you just remove Holdem manager 1 and TN1 from your computer since its been banned?
No I still turn it on after to see stuff like EV, analyze particular hands etc, copy reg stats to paper.

Still very useful.

And while I'm playing I'm finding I'm making a ton of player notes which is good.
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Old 11-25-2015, 03:52 PM   #3235
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Imp View Post
Holdem Manager and Table Ninja are refusing to update HM1/TN1 to comply with the rules - there is no "latest update" to download for those who are still using those programs.
Don't think HEM1 was updated since 2012 anyway and that was an internal patch that you needed to get off message board. No official patch at all so I don't see why they'd update it now.
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Old 11-25-2015, 06:51 PM   #3236
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Red face Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Two years ago I warned this was going to happen with HUDs and other software that tilts the game to a limited number of pros. If you want poker to survive then you will accept that this is necessary to heal the ecological problems created by Shark type software and HUDS.:
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Old 11-25-2015, 07:29 PM   #3237
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Pokerhertom View Post
Two years ago I warned this was going to happen with HUDs and other software that tilts the game to a limited number of pros. If you want poker to survive then you will accept that this is necessary to heal the ecological problems created by Shark type software and HUDS.:
Stop saying this mantra. Huds exist from the beggining of online poker and it was never a problem.

You have a lot of jackpots/high rake type of games that are drying up the pockets of every player. You have now zoom games + Spin and Go's for example. Besides PLO is more popular nowadays and this game has a rake of around 15bb/100. Not even talking about casino and sports betting where house is the only winner.

Obviously some software went too far like seat scripting or some Notecaddy features. Im just saying dont blame the player blame the game.
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Old 11-26-2015, 07:25 AM   #3238
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Hello all,

Just a few follow ups since last time:

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoMeansYes_ View Post
Will there be any information released about catching people breaking these rules and the punishments they receive? Are we supposed to just blindly believe that the people with the most sophisticated software aren't using it undetected?

Millions of hands played by bots only caught when players themselves noticed they were suspicious doesn't give a lot of confidence in your ability to keep the games "fair".
We are not going to publish a list of players who are being caught using banned software. In our opinion, such a ‘Wall of Shame’ would not really be helpful in any meaningful way. There are also privacy issues that we have to take into consideration.

We continue to invest into building our Game Integrity team as it is both in our and the players best interest to offer fair and secure games. We are very confident in our capacity to catch bots and other banned software. A lot is happening that is not immediately visible to the players. For example, by a wide margin, most of the users that are caught using bots on PokerStars, are detected by our own methods and not by reports from players

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asjbaaaf View Post
Baard; which category does "number of hands played vs villain" come under. how many colours are we allowed to have for this statistic
In my post, I wrote:

The colour threshold restriction placed on HUDs is only applicable for the in-game retrieval of statistics based on a player’s historical play mid-session.

The statistics you mention fall under this category, since it is based on the player’s historical play. The same colour restrictions apply to this stat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4-Star General View Post
The new rules are pretty confusing and there are a lot of them, I hope, before you start banning players, you will notify them regarding what they are using which is prohibited, like the pop up you are getting when you are running a banned software
We are reviewing case by case and for non-bot software we will as usual warn players before taking more direct actions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimTamBiscuit View Post
Is displaying VPIP, PFR by player stacksize in SNGs permitted?
Is 3 colors for stats by stacksize permitted?
Is a different trigger point for color change for different stacksizes for say VPIP permitted (resulting in let's say 12 different trigger points for VPIP depending on stacksize)?
Specifically, is CoffeeHUD permitted?
Can you pls comment on the various stats in CoffeeHUD whether they are allowed 3 colors or not?
These are the kind of specific questions I was thinking of when I referred to questions that needed to be sent to support. The e-mail will be sent to our game integrity specialists, who have a lot more detailed experience with all the various types of software, and will be able to give you a lot better information than I can in this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
I wish I knew what a "regular person" could realistically memorize. I know my check-raising range on a K54r flop in the BB vs UTG, but I need a series of sticky notes to remind me to pay the rent and get some cheerios.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimTamBiscuit View Post
How many charts pasted as sheets in an excel spreadsheet are allowed?
Two or three or as many as we "need"?
How many are "basic"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asjbaaaf View Post
is this really meant to be a clarifying statement? you've just made everything 10x more complicated by mentioning "something a regular person could realistically memorize." wtf is that? that's the worst baseline to work with ever.
I think it would be a mistake to refer to specific numbers in these rules. The main thing is that we are trying to indicate that what you are not able to recall from memory should not be available to you through advanced charts.
This way, we can make a judgement call when we see what kind of tools the players come up with.

If we did refer to absolute values in the rules, I am pretty sure that players would find a way to get around them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTXR1 View Post
Would you please consider lifting that limit to at least 2 two raw-values thresholds. In the current model you cannot combine low and high end ranges into a single non-base color.
It does not make sense that you're able to do so with the base color but not with the other two colors.
As an example, please allow something like that.:
0-20, 81-100 = color1
21-40, 61-80 = color2
rest = base-color
I think that what ‘makes sense’ is a matter of perspective, really. The number in the rules was chosen because we wanted to effectively restrict the HUDs from giving advice to the players during play. The colour coding is a way of reminding the user that he or she should make adjustments against a specific opponent, and can therefore be considered as giving advice.
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Old 11-26-2015, 07:37 AM   #3239
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerStars Baard View Post
We are very confident in our capacity to catch bots and other banned software. A lot is happening that is not immediately visible to the players. For example, by a wide margin, most of the users that are caught using bots on PokerStars, are detected by our own methods and not by reports from players
I'm sure you are catching most of the bots, however the major scandal were digged up by 2p2 users. So yeah, you are catching most of the MINOR bots, what about the 4M+ stolen by the huge bot ring? Did you catch'em before users? Obv no.
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Old 11-26-2015, 02:36 PM   #3240
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I applaud the elimination of HUD's, never used them because of my OCD, the built in player notes and color coding always worked for me. But....I think banning Table Ninja is too far, unless it does some stuff I'm not aware of anymore, but the ability with table ninja to play as many tables using an xbox controller and have it automatically bring your current table to focus, close the annoying endless tournament pop up windows etc. is more just a convenience thing, better user experience than anything else. It can't give you an edge, unless that edge is that you have less chance of developing RSI and carpal tunnel than your opponents who don't use it?!?
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Old 11-26-2015, 04:27 PM   #3241
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by TB303 View Post
....I think banning Table Ninja is too far, unless it does some stuff I'm not aware of anymore...
TableNinja 2 is permitted at PokerStars. TableNinja 1 is prohibited now because it has functionality that PS doesn't approve of.
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Old 11-27-2015, 09:38 AM   #3242
pies01
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerStars Baard View Post
Hello all,

Just a few follow ups since last time:



We are not going to publish a list of players who are being caught using banned software. In our opinion, such a ‘Wall of Shame’ would not really be helpful in any meaningful way. There are also privacy issues that we have to take into consideration.

We continue to invest into building our Game Integrity team as it is both in our and the players best interest to offer fair and secure games. We are very confident in our capacity to catch bots and other banned software. A lot is happening that is not immediately visible to the players. For example, by a wide margin, most of the users that are caught using bots on PokerStars, are detected by our own methods and not by reports from players
Obviously a "wall of shame" wouldn't add value but I do believe that Pokerstars need to be much more more accountable re: bot detection.

Phrases like "we are confident", "a lot is happening" and "bots are detected by our own methods" sound great but you need facts to back this up and build confidence.

Here's an example of how Banks report fraud - something similar from Pokerstars would be much appreciated. Btw, when card fraud occurs in the banking system, Banks almost always cover the cost of the fraud to the victim, regardless of whether Banks's have been able to recover the cost from the perpertrator....

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Old 11-27-2015, 10:12 AM   #3243
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Transparency... this is what Stars are lacking lately in many different areas.
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Old 12-19-2015, 09:25 AM   #3244
Maratik
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes


i'm out of the loop with what's happening on stars. i re-downloaded table ninja after not using it for years and I get this pop up, am i not allowed to use it anymore? can someone please fill me in on what's going on?
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Old 12-19-2015, 09:37 AM   #3245
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

It's banned now, calculating limpers preflop isn't allowed and they won't update it. TN2 is junk, Table Optimizer is best option now.
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Old 12-19-2015, 10:07 AM   #3246
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

My HEM 2 updated it self, do I need to do anything in order to use it for stars or did the update ensure I'm not breaking the rules.
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Old 12-19-2015, 10:25 AM   #3247
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyPandy_ View Post
My HEM 2 updated it self, do I need to do anything in order to use it for stars or did the update ensure I'm not breaking the rules.
The latest version of HM2 is in compliance with the new Third Party Tools rules at stars/tilt.
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Old 12-19-2015, 10:26 AM   #3248
Maratik
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by The Imp View Post
It's banned now, calculating limpers preflop isn't allowed and they won't update it. TN2 is junk, Table Optimizer is best option now.
that's kind of silly, it's not like there's edge to be had in having this as an option it's basic maths haha. now it's just an inconvenience as you actually need to type it in..
should have public polls for decisions like this imho, but whatever i don't run a billion+ $ company that's declining.
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Old 12-19-2015, 10:28 AM   #3249
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

anything else i should be aware of. i've heard a lot of talk about hud's. is anything finalized?
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Old 12-19-2015, 10:52 AM   #3250
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Maratik View Post
anything else i should be aware of. i've heard a lot of talk about hud's. is anything finalized?
The changes were described by Amaya a few months ago and can be viewed here - https://www.pokerstars.com/assets/co...ence-guide.pdf
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