Steve

Let me get this straight. There is a program that just manages and displays efficiently preflop charts and you want to change your policies cause of that? I understand that NVG opposes any program but lets be honest here.

a) This program would not even be a problem if the charts it displays were not apparently better from what most people have/use.
b) Stars cannot ban charts. Its very easy to print them, use a browser with tabs open, have them in excel, or even buying a new cheap computer to display the charts (all it requires is voice recognition after all) in the second monitor.
c) The technology to create those charts is out there now (GTO flop solvers with scripts) so the cat is out of the bag. Sooner than later having/displaying postflop charts will be a thing - if its not already - and most people can do nothing about it. Stars can do nothing about this specifically and you have to accept it. Even having anonymous tables changes nothing cause this is all GTO.

So IF the idea is that you have to ban this "very powerful" program (which in my opinion is certainly less powerful from lets say Notecaddy/HEM/HUDs) just because the guy managed to create the best charts available then my opinion is that you have a big flaw in your logic and you should simply do nothing. You should not listen to all the noise from NVG regarding those issues. Skier handled it very bad in my opinion by not speaking up quickly and letting all those trolls blow this out of proportion by attributing the program bot like functions/capabilities. Even if he simply sold the program (without the charts) and let everyone buy it but having to create his own charts to be useful I bet than nothing would be even mentioned in 2+2.

Now if your intention is to limit the power of certain software then the first thing you should do is to define what exactly power means. After you do that then you have your answer as well as to what should be restricted/banned.

Please dont do something just to appease the masses/trolls.

Personally I'm in favour of allowing trackers and huds as they make use of your own data. And a player who puts more effort in by studying the information from this deserves the added benefit. I know it's a grey area and having a HUD makes the process somewhat less of a personalised poker decision making process so I understand the arguments against, but on balance I'm for it.

As others have stated enforceability is key.

I know a lot of this rethink on 3rd Party Software came about due to Skier_5's program, the nature of which AFAIK has been speculated as being some sort of advanced charts. My single biggest problem with this is its exclusivity. If software (that doesn't automate decisions) is freely available at a non-prohibitive cost then it's more of a level playing field.

I think PokerStars need to take as balanced decisions as possible. Internet poker is not the same game as live poker, having and using software to aid you is a natural step I think, going into the realm of bots or automated or semi-automated decision making where your own playing skills are not involved is the line too far in the sand for me.

As such I don't want any radical changes to the existing rules, just some sensible non knee-jerk steps and evaluate like you are doing here going forward. I'm also happy for PokerStars to inform newbies of the availability of the major software available, of them prohibiting software which is not easily affordable (would be ok with software scaled at a cost that suits the stakes someone plays, this way ensures the developers are adequately paid for their work).

Good luck with the decision making process PokerStars, one thing is for sure you're not going to please everyone, no matter what you do!

Skier_5's program is just the beginning. PS's have to do something to stop rampant use of indexing libraries of solutions real time. Impossible to stop them being used, but rampant use can and should be stopped. So I think they should do something.
But a simple 'abuse policy' should do. They could allow softwhere with approx. 50 preflop charts be run at the smae time. And ban 'abussive use' Think of all the new players who use preflop charts to play with. This would hurt no one.

The same goes for equity solvers. People using them to solve 10 or so hands an hour after they've played them to check how they went is fine. But significantly more is suspicious.

I think this is a better solution than blanket bans.

because I use them occasionally obviously, and with regular use they are harmless

I'm trying to understand one thing
I see the list mention Pokerstove, OddsOracle, Flopzila
but I cant find Poker Equilab , why ?

My opinion is using hem or PT is not get advantage from opponents because these software are acessible for all.
If poker online allow us to multi table and give us that facility so its understandable players want to use that kind of -trackers- which give us some more information.

The online poker is good for that , multi table. Its not annoying .
In truth playing multi table withouth hud is some kind of caotic
If you dont like it so play Live, one table each time.

Using Hud as simple table stats does not allow us to be profitable or not.
We still need to know what we are doing.

Thats my opinion.

I agree with almost every word of this.

Most of your points were good but this one is beyond idiotic. If not for the simple fact alone that the REG/REC ratio per table would be much lower.

The simple fact is most top software programs/definition/training sites were often developed by top Poker minds and they mostly help bring the weaker regs closer to the stronger regs that already knew innately how to do most of things taught in the videos and/or exploits pointed out in the exploit badges developed in NoteCaddy. If somehow this software was removed from the playing field those relying more on statistical exploits would suffer more than those with a better understanding of GTO and/or population exploits or just basically fundamentally better poker players.

The effect on the recreational players would be that they would be less easily targeted based on their HuD stats and/or exploited at the table. The recreational players after all play the most exploitable strategies. The point is the increase in winrate that some of the more fundamentally stronger players would see would come from the weaker regs more so than the recreationals.

Banning huds is not a good idea you would have to ban hand histories too otherwise. And then studying your game, reviewing your sessions and analysing your hands becomes a pain. If the hud ban comes, all one needs to do is have a separate computer and a monitor on the side with stats of every player you face. Banning huds is just a silly idea it's unenforceable.

Not entirely true.
One system that would work would be if the hand histories you played in were only written to your PC once you had left that table.

And then if somebody has a separate PC with stats on the players they're versing? Depending on how they got those stats would depend on if they've breached the TOS.

If, say, without a HUD somebody finds themselves at a table, and then opens up Russian PTR, that'd be against PokerStars Terms of Service and could potentially be a bannable offence.

100% agree with this. IMO, most regs would win more if they studied their opponents' tendencies away from the table and put thought into playing them. I play mostly live now, and one of the few people that I run hands past was a live "hud bot", who suddenly began to think about the game and exploiting opponents and became a really solid player in a pretty short time. But it takes hard work and stepping away from relying solely on vpip/pfr/cbet numbers.

It's ok that you disagree, it's a moot point. The problem lies in bringing fish to the game. Most of the softest networks have sports betting. A lot of the worst live players where I've played come in with black chips they won at table games and gamble it up. There needs to be constant influx of fresh meat at all times.

If Pokerstars doesn't consider a system which will allow only fish play with fish, only shark play with shark, there will be no fair game with or without softwares.

I am a math guy. And i get pleasure from reading stats from hud, creating notecaddy definitions, etc.. And by doing this, i didn't win millions so far, opposite i am down.

What will be next? will Pokerstars ban players who have very good memory?

Segregation doesn't work. Check PartyPoker 2 years ago.
People will just pack up and leave.

The thing is stars has no way of knowing what programs you run on the side. You can have russian ptr there and if huds are banned, I'm sure the guy who created that site will be licking his lips as he will be able to create real time huds for people to have on separate screen.

So let people win games/money by investing/learning/training/using softwares. There is nothing fair in poker except card dealing.

So instead let's make the toughest players play each other to breakeven with rakeback, and let the recreational players splash about with each other. Because you know, it's not like the current poker-economy is grinding to a halt already. Let's kill it ourselves instead of keeping it afloat!

I'm all for HUD's being banned, but to say that it's unfair when people train towards the game and then win is idiotic. There was a stage where King10Clubs on PokerStars wasn't using a HUD (unsure if this is still the case) and winning. But I guess that's unfair of him/her/them, huh?

Many? I'd be interested in who. Seems to me this is a straw man, people aren't saying restrict s/w and the boom returns. Some are saying that it would help by making a more level playing field for newbies but nobody is discounting the passage of time, the churn of a generation of potential players, the better training info, the economy, black friday etc etc.

The point is that S/W is moving on, it is making the situation worse. Restricting it is no panacea, no rewind to 2005. The point being made is that if we don't restrict s/w it will kill the game. By increasing the gap between the reg and the newbie/rec the s/w has already helped burn through that genertion of new sign ups either by eating them alive with scanning s/w seating scripts and more or by deterring people from playing at all because they know that it is not a level playing field.

Now you are right that the skill gap will still play, that the dediated, the hard working (the full time) player will still win but for the fish restricting the s/w increases the variance of the game, it means that sometimes they may have a winning session.

If you play roulette, the worst of the worst table mug games, you will have a winning session about 30% of the time. That is what makes roulette sustainable, it is why roulette as lasted centuries and still dwarfs poker in the casino world not just in terms of casino revenues but in terms of popularity.

I would be very interested if one of our stat geniuses could tell me what proportion of winning sessions a fish has. Not the worst of fish, a guy who gets the game at a basic level and has played a bit. A guy with say a month of play twice a week for a few hours. A guy with a job, you know the guy that pays all the bills for the site and the winning players. How often do they win?

I'm convinced that for your home game hero venturing online Roulette offers more play, more wins, more enjoyment...more variance than poker. OK the guy may be a fan of cards not bouncing balls but Blackjack with a far lower house edge vs even just a basic strategy but that just makes poker's problem worse.

It may be that even with software clipped the edge achieved against the newbie by the new techniques of the better players (plus the rake) still leaves poker at a huge disadvantage but today for a guy who wants to gamble and has a full time job (so can't be the super reg of your motivational appeal to hard work) the best advice is....don't play poker. I don't think that was the case 4/5 years ago but today? Are they really getting anything for their money? An enjoyable game? The occassional win? or are they bumhunted to death even in the micros by multitabling nit regs who can do what they do in large part because of the power of the software.

That gap, that lack of variance for newer players needs to be improved or the game has no appeal for those paying the bills. The good reg does not need the extra advantage of all the s/w bells and whistles. He laready has an edge. Taking that edge and then adding powerful software to it to create a less even position between the rec and the reg...kills the game by killing the golden goose.

Finally, when even HUSNG regs see software destroying their game, when bots/cybots are destroying mid stakes PLO some have woken up to the need to clip the software advantage. Don't worry though, if it happens the skill edge remains.

All you are dreaming and talking no sense things

Who are the fishes ? People who plays 5 or 7 games a week or month?
You are very concern about this kind of players? Are you kidding right?????

Fishes who plays every day but still loosing , is this because other ppl are using HUD's ?? Are you kidding right?

Please stop and think.
Fishes also use Hud's BUT they dont study, they dont -waste time- reviewing and add some notes trying to see what they did wrong
They only play and play, with huds without huds.. they dont -study-

Hud will not help me If I dont study
Huds are a litlle help to who plays a lot of tables at same time and ITS CORRECT

Huds are available for everybody.


Dont tell me . A fish will say : I play so well but its impossible to win these regs because they play with hud LOL

Maybe the correct is , fish says: Cmon I bought this hud now I'm feeling a reg but I still cant win. This is rigged

My Advice: GO STUDY

You may thank me later for helping you on the path of enlightment. As your biggest worry are the newbies (RECs) the solution is pretty simple: NoteCaddy for free for every REC! NoteCaddy with it's heatmaps and graphs does a very good job in helping newbies to understand ranges. A complete newbie has far more benefit from soft like NoteCaddy than a REG as it presents ranges in an easy and understandable way. Thinking in ranges is by far the hardest to learn for a beginner.

Small side-note: i really dislike how pull up one straw man after the other. It's an insult of the intellect of everyone able to count til 10.

Tough. Sad to say the decline of online poker is not a straw man. If you can't see the biger picture, if your focus remains just what you can get from poker, how tools help you, so be it. Admirable focus, a focus that they help some horses have by making them wear blinkers when they race.

It's useless to discuss with you. You keep babbleing your nonsense decorated with straw men. The decline of online poker is due to software?! That's your arguement?! In case this is really what you think and your explanation of the decline of online poker.....well, in that case: have a nice day and best of luck in life.

@Richas, just curious, are you a poker player? Or you are in involved in something else related to the poker world?

This slogan will never be a good way to sell a free time activity. Seems Pokerstars is finally realising this.

Poker is not profession - it's a free time activity that can be popular enough to make it possible to do professionally - but the economics don't work as a stand alone profession. That's why PS marketing is now oriented towards people playing poker recreationally as one part of their lives (like a lot of the Shark Cage contestants), not professional players.

To the guy earlier who suggested a limit of 50 charts. How about a limit of about 1 chart - like I said 1800 char maximum - maybe PS could even provide one ostensibly from (much as it pains me to say it) Daniel Negreanu giving a rough idea of what hands to play from where - similar to how casinos provide blackjack basic strategy cards because they don't want customers to lose too fast and never come back. 50 charts is "GO STUDY"; the slogan should be "COME PLAY".

Also PS game integrity should be accessing the databases of anyone using HUDs. Anyone found to have hands there they didn't play themselves should just be insta-banned. If the HUD makers don't cooperate they should just be banned too.

From a casual player:

-I see no problems with HUDS. Now that free HUDS like Jivaro are around no monetary investment is needed.
-I think dynamic information, like a number of premium HUDS provide, is clearly against the spirit of the game, regardless of how they spin it. The information throughout the hand should be just that which is provided at the start. And just information rather than targeted advice.

I think going too far and removing HUDS would actually damage the game. I think we're at a point now where recreational players have access if they want it. But things that cross into advice and not just stats which need skill to interpret should be got rid of.

This argument would work if you could adduce more than merely anecdotal evidence that there was a causal link between the use of software and the decline of online poker thus far.

Dear Pokerstars.
Notecaddy is a program keeping automatically the notes that a player want to keep, so the player don't has to type notes.

I want to keep action based notes and I use them on my game, as every other serious players does. By restricting Notecaddy in the way you say you just restrict the number of tables a serious player can play to maximum 4 (so he has to type this notes by hand)

If you do this, I have to quit playing Pokerstars (and Full tilt) and play on the other Poker rooms since no other poker room is restricting notecaddy.

Most high volume players wil do the same also.

About Flopzilla, Odds oracle , pokerstove etc :
nobody is using those tools during playing (except begginer players who don't know even know the basics about the game). Those tools are for studying and plan your own game away from the tables, so "prohibiting" the use of them at the tables changes nothing except that it just sounds stupid. No serious players exists that using those tools during his game, so you can proceed and prohibit the usage of those calculator tools during the game if you want to, nobody cares.

You have also to filter the answers from the two plus two threads, and see what the players who KNOW how to play the game , KNOW what those tools on discussion are and REALLYU PLAY the game on pokerstars is saying about the changes. On a public forum MR NOBODY , MR NOTHING and MR TROLL can express his opinions as happening until know here.

Most high volume REAL POKER PLAYERS don't even watch the forum often. They will learn about notecaddy restrictions just when you force them and then you will have an explosion of 50 pages here of regs quiting the room. Until now they don't even know that this thread exist that's why there are not a lot serious opinions and answers here.

I think you should inform the REAL pokerstars players DIRECLTY by sending the email to them and give them a QUESTIONAIRE to FILL where also their VIP status is appearing. If someone is used to be BRONZELEVEL or CHROME that means that he has no idea what this tool you discuss are, he has never used them and he can't express an opinion on the topic he just don't mind. You should send the questionaire to players starting from at minimum SILVER or GOLD VIP status, those are the players who know the game, make all the traffic in your games and the life of the poker room is depended on them.

It is not that we respect less CHROME or BRONZE level players that we Respect Supernova.

It is about that SOMEONE CAN'T EXPRESS AN OPINION ABOUT SOFTWARE TOOLS THAT HAS NEVER USED IN HIS LIFE, they DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY DO AND HOW THEY WORK and OBVIOUSLY they DON't CARE about the restriction. For example nobody in CHROME level is using advanced/professional Notecaddy notes and nobody cares if you restrict them and most of them they will not answer "I DON'T KNOW" . Many people LOVE talking about things they DON'T KNOW and want to BE REMOVED from the game thinking that can make the game easier for them to play and the will answer YES

You should also DON't care at all about what massive attacking forum TROLLS are saying here as what mr Nobody is saying here.

I am a real poker player and I explain to you , giving my advise for free that don't try to restrict notecaddy, the traffic in cash games will fall immidietelly and forever. Restricting using odd calculators during the game change nothing because no serious player need using them during the game, and looks ...funny , but you are can do it if you like.

Antonios Fountouris (Expert user of most of the software you are referring to and Cash game regular)

It's only partly s/w, but then that is the topic of the thread.