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Old 10-01-2015, 02:47 PM   #2926
onlinepokerwiz
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Steroids gave players an unfair advantage, the same way a HUD or some other software give an unfair advantage.
Quote:
...now it's time to adjust and find your edge elsewhere.
Using your baseball analogy (and not trying to support the used of steroids) the difference is that the use of steroids was a well known topic among other players, everybody involved in the game knew it existed they just choose not to use it, and even if they had decide it to use it that wasnt a guarantee their results/performance was gonna improve cuz of it, in baseball, doesnt matter how strong you are you still need to hit the ball.

Same in poker, the use of HUD is no guarantee a player has an edge over the other, just because he has a number of statistics to look at refering to other players tendencies, the person need to correctly interpret them and come up with the proper decission to actually make money exploiting the other players, if anything, i know many fishregs that play solely based on HUD reads and are ridic exploitable even if i werent using a HUD.

I agree that lots of those 3rd party programs are bad for the game ecosystem and they shouldnt be allowed by any poker site like NoteCaddy, Seating Scripts (Both on cash games and SNGs), Dynamic HUDs (EasyStreet for example), etc., but HUDs in their most basic static-numerical form dont think it constitutes a treat for the ecosystem non those programs-script that allow asigning hotkeys for the different actions like betting, raising, checking, calling, all in., in fact PS has those hotkeys integraded on their client, i am against on those softwares taking into account stack sizes, players position, previous actions, etc., to determine the proper bet size, like the 4x+1x rule in case we´re facing a limp pot.
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Old 10-01-2015, 03:56 PM   #2927
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Nice changes. Golden era of poker on PokerStars back in 2015, very unexpected and welcome change. Time to show some ingame skills and stop being human assisted bots.
Why any reg can complain about this, I don't know.
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Old 10-01-2015, 04:22 PM   #2928
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by PokerStars Baard View Post

The main reason for this decision is that one of the most significant features of Spin & Gos is that there is no game selection and that it should be random who you play against. Software of the type we are now banning systematically bypasses this feature to the detriment of those who are not using the software. Some might also see this as disingenuous towards the thousands of players who go into these games thinking that it is entirely random who they are drawn to play against.

In accordance with our usual procedure, our first objective will be to educate people who do not realise that this form of software is now prohibited. Consequently, we will have sent a notification of these rule changes to players who we know have been using such software in the recent past. None of these players have broken any of our rules, but we want to make sure that everyone has first-hand information so that they do not inadvertently end up in a situation where they break the rules in the future.
So let me get this straight, Stars. You are banning Spinwiz, because

"Software of the type we are now banning systematically bypasses this feature to the detriment of those who are not using the software".

So you say it was harming those who are not using it. I assume you are mostly referencing recreational players. So far so good. So up to now recreational players were getting slightly more tables with 1 regular and 1 recreational. Now they will get more tables with 2 regulars, the same regulars that they were getting before, but the rec vs which they had better chance is now gone from the table a lot of the time. Do you follow me so far, Stars? So now the recreational gets a tougher table on average, but it's all for the greater good of him, he shouldn't be worried about that, right?

Is there any chance, remote possibility, that maybe you already know that the result is tougher games for recreationals (and regs of course), but on the other hand now you get more games going on per hour and likely less overall edges, so you get to recycle more money and see less cashouts from winning players? Hmmm, Stars, there seems to be some hypocrisy going on here.

If you followed so far, just one more thing - all this was handled extremely poorly and unprofessionally so far - warnings, time to do changes, vague and unclear explanations. Good job!
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Old 10-01-2015, 04:50 PM   #2929
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

As for me it looks like Stars just pushing regs to play against other regs. This will be their main policy in the nearest future. Of course they are talking about saving ecology, for the sake of recreational etc but really it just gives them tons of extra rake. Removing table selection is their best dream.
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Old 10-01-2015, 04:53 PM   #2930
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by NellyV View Post
Pokerstars is so dominant in the market place that it should probably be broken up to allow proper competition. Full Tilt used to provide this competition but there is no longer another site where players can go to get a similar sized player pool and therefore similar liquidity of games to Pokerstars.
Okay, sure, but it's not like the alternatives don't exist - and, if they're good ideas, we'll see them grow due to product differentiation.

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My way? I didn't invent the game. It's still the same game with the same rule structure, weather you're play 1 or 24 tables. Live or online. 1/2 or 100/200. The game it self is always the same.

Just because you have the computing power to use software doesn't mean we should. How does anyone still see it as a fair game if you're using anything 3rd party.
But let's note that live poker wasn't invented with a 'no HUDs' rule, it just wouldn't have been possible when live poker began. Live poker has changed to disallow HUDs, but that was mainly AFAIK because the elements which allowed HUDs would've allowed more blatant cheating through computer communication, not because HUDs were seen as inherently unfair (I actually think it's at least arguable that HUDs are permitted in live poker based on hypothetical technology). To summarise this bit, the 'it should be played the same way as live poker' argument fails because a) there's no good reason for saying that, b) there's no reason why it should be online, rather than live poker, which changes for parity even if we do accept that first part, and c) even so, there is no rule against HUDs in live poker (there is a rule against the use of certain computer devices) - I challenge you to find a rule against consulting a database in RROP.

The 'it's not fair' argument is completely different. I'll accept that the use of advantages which not everyone has access to is unfair. However, I a) deny that people don't have access to this software (maybe people in third world countries who don't have $50 for it, but I daresay they have more pressing concerns), b) if your argument isn't based on access, I deny that HUDs provide an unfair advantage given everyone has at least validly imputed ability to use one, and therefore, short of the skill involved in using one well, everyone starts on a level playing field, and c) I deny that the fact that some people don't know HUDs exist makes it unfair on them considering it is relatively easy to find out. If I don't know courts exist, is it unfair to enter contracts with me? If I don't know past sporting results are available, is it unfair to make sport bets with me? Hell, the more appropriate analogy is if I don't know that it's possible to compile past sporting results in a statistically significant manner, is it unfair to make sport bets with me? The answer to all of those is very clearly 'no' IYAM.

Quote:
Here's my best argument, when baseball players were using steroids in the 90's there was no rules against it. Now there is, but no one is taking their home runs away and no is taking their salary back. They got away with it for as long as they could until it got out of control. Much like the 3rd party stuff has gotten out of control.

Steroids gave players an unfair advantage, the same way a HUD or some other software give an unfair advantage. Too bad for those people using them. You had a good run, now it's time to adjust and find your edge elsewhere. Cause that's what it's all about right... Getting that edge anyway you can....
How has it gotten out of control? There is no evidence that HUDs (I won't defend seating scripts) are in any way damaging the games. I also deny that permitting the use of steroids in sports is unfair if everyone has access - and indeed, I think sports would be better and more entertaining if they were permitted (n.b. because of my support in general for paternalistic laws, I should note I do not know, and am not expressing an opinion about the medical safety of steroids; I am starting from the presumption that they are safe to use).

Quote:
To add one thing, I don't need a HUD to tell me that the guy in the 2 seat is raising x amount of the time. Regs that play 24 tables can't follow all that, I get it, but that's just too bad... Play less tables.
The thing is, regs who use HUDs will still be able to identify the weaker players very quickly with or without HUDs. I can't remember the last time I identified a fish based on their HUD stats. More reliable tells (and these tend to arise WITHIN the first orbit I play with someone) are open-limping, stack sizes, screen names, avatars, and the number of tables people are playing. Until recently on Stars it was also possible to get a good idea from players playing on mobiles, but they removed that indicator, which, while I believe it marginally hurts my bottom line, I applaud.

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Originally Posted by LektorAJ View Post


Then I mean it's a good analogy for people who see the poker client as a work app like Excel or Word, rather than a type of computer game.
In computer games players can use certain third party software. The computer game analogy is not strong against TPS. If you mean to distinguish between professionals and recreational players, I don't see the relevance. I feel the distinction between professionals and recreationals can be made within the scope of computer games.
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Old 10-01-2015, 05:11 PM   #2931
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by TheDefiniteArticle View Post
More reliable tells (and these tend to arise WITHIN the first orbit I play with someone) are open-limping, stack sizes, screen names, avatars, and the number of tables people are playing.
I would also include betsizing on that list.
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Old 10-01-2015, 05:24 PM   #2932
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

i'm trying to follow all this stuff as the news is breaking so apologies if you've already discussed this but will my pt4 HUD still work with stars?

i just came off a session and everything was working as usual.
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Old 10-01-2015, 05:46 PM   #2933
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by turbogeist View Post
i'm trying to follow all this stuff as the news is breaking so apologies if you've already discussed this but will my pt4 HUD still work with stars?

i just came off a session and everything was working as usual.
There's no need to stay up to date with this stuff. PT4 and HM2 will be changed as necessary to comply with Pokerstars rules.
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Old 10-01-2015, 05:53 PM   #2934
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I do t understand the train of thought that by stopping huds from working more rec players will play? There still going to go bust there still going to be the worst players at the table by a mile so why are they going to continue to deposit still going bust every other day. Is it there hope that taking huds away will make them feel better. How about good players are they going to be called cheaters if they are winning ? How can he still take my money and he has no hud they will say
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Old 10-01-2015, 06:11 PM   #2935
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Mass multi-tabling (which is made possible/easier with HUDs) is the bigger deterrent for recs imo.

i.e. The games are very slow and not enjoyable. If they are having fun and still lose money they will possibly come back.

If they are not having fun and lose money they won't come back. I wouldn't.
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Old 10-01-2015, 06:16 PM   #2936
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Problem:
Software Aid X is a much misunderstood tool, but is apparently damaging the cashgame ecology to some degree.
Software Aid Y is also a much misunderstood tool, but is apparently damaging the SnG ecology to some degree.

People using Software Aid X want Y to be banned.

People using Software Aid Y want X to be banned.

People using neither software aid want X and Y to be banned.
---
Even a monkey could work out the GTO solution to this problem. Why is it taking Pokerstars so long?
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Old 10-01-2015, 06:31 PM   #2937
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I'm sry rec player or not I don't no anyone who has fun losing there money that's why they are crying about huds ... Think about it. If recs could have fun losing there money then who would care about huds. Bottom line is there still going to go bust and that's a fact it will not make re s do better there still going to spew! I do agree with getting rid of seat scripts but I'm not sure this is going on in the right way. Why not anonymous tables people who don't like huds and tables with huds for everyone else
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Old 10-01-2015, 06:41 PM   #2938
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

What about all the people who go to casinos and lose money playing table games?

They are still having fun and a lot of them keep going back.

P.S. I'm not saying they are having fun losing money. They are having fun despite losing money.

Edit to add: not all rec poker players go bust.

Last edited by warrenBluffit; 10-01-2015 at 06:50 PM.
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Old 10-01-2015, 06:44 PM   #2939
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I don't no about anyone else but I never have fun losing money it's not fun. Maybe that's because I don't have money I like to throw away. I am a rec poker player but I still take playing seriously. I'm never going to have fun losing money, if that was fun I would find way better ways to blow cash then this.
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Old 10-01-2015, 06:46 PM   #2940
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by warrenBluffit View Post
What about all the people who go to casinos and lose money playing table games?

They are still having fun and a lot of them keep going back.
The only people that could get any enjoyment in losing money are people that are financially stable, and Evan then I still think most still rather win
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Old 10-01-2015, 06:48 PM   #2941
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

People have noticed the changes being made to the newer versions of HM2 and PT4. I do not know about PT4, but won't the users of HM2 just ignore the update and keep on using the older version to use their "pay hud?"

I've seen some twitch streamers talking about this..
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Old 10-01-2015, 06:49 PM   #2942
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Q View Post
Nice changes. Golden era of poker on PokerStars back in 2015, very unexpected and welcome change. Time to show some ingame skills and stop being human assisted bots.
Why any reg can complain about this, I don't know.
I guess I gotta buy that 5000 hands feature to work on my nash range.
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Old 10-01-2015, 07:00 PM   #2943
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by tapouttazz9 View Post
The only people that could get any enjoyment in losing money are people that are financially stable, and Evan then I still think most still rather win
I'm not saying they are having fun losing money. They are having fun despite losing money. There is a difference.

And there's always the chance they will win money.

Last edited by warrenBluffit; 10-01-2015 at 07:08 PM.
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Old 10-01-2015, 07:57 PM   #2944
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote from Pokerstars Baard
Quote:
The main reason for this decision is that one of the most significant features of Spin & Gos is that there is no game selection and that it should be random who you play against.
SpinWiz proponents please learn how to read.
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Old 10-01-2015, 11:13 PM   #2945
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

would these changes be made on full tilt also?
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Old 10-02-2015, 01:54 AM   #2946
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

If you need any indication of why banning 3rd party software (of any sort incl HUDs) would be great for poker - head over to Facebook and look at PokerNews latest news piece about Stars banning 'some 3rd party software' - the sheer amount of comments from fish (it's pretty obvious these people are mostly fish if you read what they say about poker). Unfortunately I think these people think that all HUDs are banned - which they should be - not sure they realize it's just specific features within a HUD that Stars are thinking of banning.

Just get rid of any 3rd party software and see how amazing the games become. No mass tablers from Eastern Europe, no robotic players, no seating scripts - a level playing field and it would be insanely good for the game.
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Old 10-02-2015, 02:08 AM   #2947
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

"Just get rid of any 3rd party software and see how amazing the games become. No mass tablers from Eastern Europe, no robotic players, no seating scripts - a level playing field and it would be insanely good for the game. "

let`s see how well the games on pp get after the ban of all 3rd party software...
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Old 10-02-2015, 02:46 AM   #2948
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Of course, everyone who don't use software will be happy if it is banned.
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Old 10-02-2015, 04:31 AM   #2949
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by tapouttazz9 View Post
The only people that could get any enjoyment in losing money are people that are financially stable, and Evan then I still think most still rather win
The reason people enjoy casino games is variance. In most sessions they will have oints when they are up, indeed a third of sessions result in the player ending the session whilst they are up.

The more poker is turned in to a grind, the more rec player sessions are reduced to almost invariably losing the less appealing it is as a game. Bigger pots, more multi street and multi player hands delivers more fun and more variance.

Th fact that long term casino games result in loss - in consumer spend for entertainment is sustainable. Joyless poker grinding resulting in few or no winning sessions means recs quit - you see they get more fun/value from the casino games.
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Old 10-02-2015, 06:05 AM   #2950
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Excellent news! Very good job stars!
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