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Old 09-30-2015, 08:51 PM   #2901
teddybloat
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Lack of understanding of the spin lobby system; lack of understanding of how spinwiz works; lack of understanding of the mechanics of the format to the point where collusion was not only likely to be a problem, but a part of the functionality of the program...yet of the opinion that spinwiz represented a scandal of maybe a greater magnitude than the one bringing one of the worlds leading manufacturers to its knees in full view of global media.

The emptiest drum really does bang loudest.

Last edited by teddybloat; 09-30-2015 at 08:56 PM. Reason: Correcting auto-correct
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Old 09-30-2015, 09:56 PM   #2902
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Lets be completely honest and realistic about the actual problems that are out there.
It`s not the HUDs (and ill never be convinced otherwise), or sizing programs or even NC`s/GTO type of b*ll**** software stuff that might `scare` recs to play online.
Like never ever ever, maybe a veeeeeery small % of recs might think so.
The majority of the reason comes from published worldwide on TV/newspapers etc info about BOTS (well-programmed computers that are taking your money online!!! imagine that, thats what recs discuss in casinos i hear that all the time), and stuff like blackfriday IUGEA, superusers seeing ur holecards, when u as a rec are afraid to leave/deposit ur money online on an online poker site cose ur money can get stuck (PS/FTP BF 2 year money stuck story, unibets Russ Hamilton, microgaming stories etc).
The actual and only reasons that actual recs who i`ve heard myself in real life talking about it, so lets only focus on what truly matters, not have this redic double standard approach.
Not the guys who dont want/know how to use hud and now coming here screaming about `oh how bad huds/programms are for recs, help the poor recs, i myself can live w/o all that, now i go and continue my Sunday praying in local church` in a self-interested way.
Just stop it, my eyes are bleeding reading all this nonsense.
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Old 10-01-2015, 12:53 AM   #2903
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

There was all this talk and general apprehensive feelings abounding in this thread, then Stars comes it and admits to the Odlaner thing, so how many other nefarious tools, and software out there, that we are as yet unaware of,is anybodies guess.

My buddies and i no longer have confidence in a fair level playing field at Stars, and as a consequence, we have all stopped playing there,never again shall any of us be depositing another coin there, we all pulled our bankrolls (save for $50 each) out but left a small amount for upcoming weekend,figured we may as well give that a go but that is it for Stars as far as we are concerned.

Stars does a great job with the live tournie scene globally and long may they be the industry frontrunners, but for my crew and i, we love to play but feel that PKR is better suited to our situation (we only play small-medium) and hopefully PKR is off the hacker/cheater radar. And hopefully the script seaters are not usable on PKR too.
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Old 10-01-2015, 12:58 AM   #2904
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

There was all this talk and general apprehensive feelings abounding in this thread, then Stars comes it and admits to the Odlaner thing, so how many other nefarious tools, and software out there, that we are as yet unaware of,is anybodies guess.

My buddies and i no longer have confidence in a fair level playing field at Stars, and as a consequence, we have all stopped playing there,never again shall any of us be depositing another coin there, we all pulled our bankrolls (save for $50 each) out but left a small amount for upcoming weekend,figured we may as well give that a go but that is it for Stars as far as we are concerned.

Stars does a great job with the live tournie scene globally and long may they be the industry frontrunners, but for my crew and i, we love to play but feel that PKR is better suited to our situation (we only play small-medium) and hopefully PKR is off the hacker/cheater radar.
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Old 10-01-2015, 02:20 AM   #2905
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by teddybloat View Post
Lack of understanding of the spin lobby system; lack of understanding of how spinwiz works; lack of understanding of the mechanics of the format to the point where collusion was not only likely to be a problem, but a part of the functionality of the program...yet of the opinion that spinwiz represented a scandal of maybe a greater magnitude than the one bringing one of the worlds leading manufacturers to its knees in full view of global media.

The emptiest drum really does bang loudest.
BS - cry me a river. Spin Wiz is now banned - Good. The reasonwas and is that it is unfair and disadvantages the rec at the expense of the reg, normally without the rec even knowing and with no way for the rec to protect themselves.

Meanwhile it will be interesting to see if Stars did find colusion from this tool that let two players seat each other vs 1 opponent, in a game format particularly vulnerable to collusion (2 vs 1). Personally I suspect the ban is in part because not only is the potential for collusion using SpinWiz obvious but that once Stars looked for it they found evidence of it happening.
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Old 10-01-2015, 02:26 AM   #2906
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by lancelott_ View Post
Lets be completely honest and realistic about the actual problems that are out there.
It`s not the HUDs (and ill never be convinced otherwise), or sizing programs or even NC`s/GTO type of b*ll**** software stuff that might `scare` recs to play online.
Like never ever ever, maybe a veeeeeery small % of recs might think so.
The majority of the reason comes from published worldwide on TV/newspapers etc info about BOTS (well-programmed computers that are taking your money online!!! imagine that, thats what recs discuss in casinos i hear that all the time), and stuff like blackfriday IUGEA, superusers seeing ur holecards, when u as a rec are afraid to leave/deposit ur money online on an online poker site cose ur money can get stuck (PS/FTP BF 2 year money stuck story, unibets Russ Hamilton, microgaming stories etc).
The actual and only reasons that actual recs who i`ve heard myself in real life talking about it, so lets only focus on what truly matters, not have this redic double standard approach.
Not the guys who dont want/know how to use hud and now coming here screaming about `oh how bad huds/programms are for recs, help the poor recs, i myself can live w/o all that, now i go and continue my Sunday praying in local church` in a self-interested way.
Just stop it, my eyes are bleeding reading all this nonsense.
We need to criminalise the supply and development of bots. The legal framework for this already exists, we just need to make the supply of poker software for use during online sessions to consumers a service that requires a licence as supplying the exact same software to the operator already is.

The law for this is already on the books in the UK it is merely a change in regulatory approach that would need consulting upon before supplying or installing a bot would risk a 51 week gaol sentence.
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Old 10-01-2015, 02:36 AM   #2907
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by teddybloat View Post
99% of spin players won't have heard of spin wiz.
Until a newspaper has a blank page it needs to fill with something exaggerated - unlike the VW thing the normal public won't know the issues and will just take what the newspaper says as correct.

Richas is right, the reputation risk is massive.
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Old 10-01-2015, 03:06 AM   #2908
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Richas View Post
BS - cry me a river. Spin Wiz is now banned - Good. The reasonwas and is that it is unfair and disadvantages the rec at the expense of the reg, normally without the rec even knowing and with no way for the rec to protect themselves.

Meanwhile it will be interesting to see if Stars did find colusion from this tool that let two players seat each other vs 1 opponent, in a game format particularly vulnerable to collusion (2 vs 1). Personally I suspect the ban is in part because not only is the potential for collusion using SpinWiz obvious but that once Stars looked for it they found evidence of it happening.
Yah ho hum.

Spins will remain beatable 90% of my volume with the program was against other users anyway.

Again you believe spins are a ripe format for collusion. Not only that but spinwiz's subsequent ban is evidence of it being the case. Internally consistent i guess. But still a hollow drum making a hell of a racket all the same.

I dont doubt reputational harm was a major considoration. And with tu sbthumping sensatonalists shrieking about collusion and predation and comparing it to internatonal scandals i guess it was an easier decision to make
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Old 10-01-2015, 03:52 AM   #2909
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Richas View Post
BS - cry me a river. Spin Wiz is now banned - Good. The reasonwas and is that it is unfair and disadvantages the rec at the expense of the reg, normally without the rec even knowing and with no way for the rec to protect themselves.

Meanwhile it will be interesting to see if Stars did find colusion from this tool that let two players seat each other vs 1 opponent, in a game format particularly vulnerable to collusion (2 vs 1). Personally I suspect the ban is in part because not only is the potential for collusion using SpinWiz obvious but that once Stars looked for it they found evidence of it happening.
Speaking of legal action for poker issues, let's check out how defamation works:
1) making false claims without basis
2) that false claim harms a person or business
3) the claim is made to someone other than the person defamed
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Old 10-01-2015, 04:27 AM   #2910
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by pies01 View Post
Speaking of legal action for poker issues, let's check out how defamation works:
1) making false claims without basis
2) that false claim harms a person or business
3) the claim is made to someone other than the person defamed
Damn. lost my tiny violin again.

To repeat:
Spin Wiz was/is a tool that
  • helped regs and harmed recs
  • was not fair and open, as most players were unaware of it
  • could be used to facilitate hard or soft collusion by large groups of players

Nowt false there, you fall at point 1.

It is now prohibited by Stars. Good.

Now clearly this is a shame for those making money from it - tough. They had ten months of it being approved which is roughly ten months too long.
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Old 10-01-2015, 05:37 AM   #2911
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by lancelott_ View Post
unibets Russ Hamilton
You're thinking of Ultimate Bet, not Unibet.
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Old 10-01-2015, 05:38 AM   #2912
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Richas View Post
We need to criminalise the supply and development of bots. The legal framework for this already exists, we just need to make the supply of poker software for use during online sessions to consumers a service that requires a licence as supplying the exact same software to the operator already is.

The law for this is already on the books in the UK it is merely a change in regulatory approach that would need consulting upon before supplying or installing a bot would risk a 51 week gaol sentence.
would love it if botting was a criminal process that would get punished by jail worldwide.
that might be a slight discourage for some guys
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Old 10-01-2015, 05:41 AM   #2913
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by UnibetAndrew View Post
You're thinking of Ultimate Bet, not Unibet.
yea i might have mulled that
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Old 10-01-2015, 05:53 AM   #2914
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Richas View Post
Damn. lost my tiny violin again.

To repeat:
Spin Wiz was/is a tool that
  • helped regs and harmed recs
  • was not fair and open, as most players were unaware of it
  • could be used to facilitate hard or soft collusion by large groups of players

Nowt false there, you fall at point 1.

It is now prohibited by Stars. Good.

Now clearly this is a shame for those making money from it - tough. They had ten months of it being approved which is roughly ten months too long.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richas View Post
You still don't get how it works. If you are both on the mutual sit list when you get to the front of the SpinWiz queue they prioritise matching you with your pal, in multiple games, and you are seated together vs one non spin wiz user - this will happen every time you register via SpinWiz if you have the feature on.

The functionality delivers you your colluder DESPITE the hundreds of other regs. The whole point is that makes seating with a colluder (possibly from a large group of colluders) pretty certain not unlikely - that's the function - mutual seating vs Mark.
interesting change of wording saying that spinwiz "could be used to facilitate hard or soft collusion by large groups of players".
Before the ban, as evidenced by your post above, you were screaming from the rooftops that the software was all about colluding. It would be interesting to know if pokerstars used these kinds of posts for the basis of their decision - as you actually implied in your earlier post....
Something for the spinwiz guys to mull over.
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Old 10-01-2015, 06:25 AM   #2915
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by pies01 View Post
interesting change of wording saying that spinwiz "could be used to facilitate hard or soft collusion by large groups of players".
Before the ban, as evidenced by your post above, you were screaming from the rooftops that the software was all about colluding. It would be interesting to know if pokerstars used these kinds of posts for the basis of their decision - as you actually implied in your earlier post....
Something for the spinwiz guys to mull over.
Its what happens when people have very little comprehension of a subject but hold strident polarised opinions anyway. I'm sure we' ve all met a a boorish hysterical unit at parties / bars / workplaces. Unfortunately bar-room bores usually have the loudest voices, innit.
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Old 10-01-2015, 06:45 AM   #2916
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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interesting change of wording saying that spinwiz "could be used to facilitate hard or soft collusion by large groups of players".
Before the ban, as evidenced by your post above, you were screaming from the rooftops that the software was all about colluding. It would be interesting to know if pokerstars used these kinds of posts for the basis of their decision - as you actually implied in your earlier post....
Something for the spinwiz guys to mull over.
It was about colluding - it let you choose a group of players to be seated with. The fact that others might target you so it was not a 100% guarantee of getting seated with your colluder mate, just highly likely, does not alter that.

It was and is a collusion tool - now that Stars has prohibited it they should check just how much collusion it helped facillitate. Where they find it they should seize funds and compensate the marks.

The SpinWiz guys can mull all they like. They built a tool that can be used for collusion and at even at its most basic was about regs colluding to share out recs between their subscribers, even if that collusion did not always exted to hard or soft collusion in game.

Goodbye passive collusion, soft collusion by large groups off a shared roll made more difficult and active hard in game collusion made more difficult to orchestrate in spin and gos as well = GOOD.

I doubt my moaning had any real influence in this - like I suspect my lobbying for a poker carve out for VIP schemes in UK tax law likely had no meaningful impact. Similarly my moaning about UK rebuys getting raked was likely peripheral. The two areas where my activism has had some certainty of action are on auto top ups/rebuys for UK players and in getting the UKGC to start looking properly at poker cheating and reporting on that to players.

Spin Wiz, meh, my role is peripheral at best but what the hell, if you want to give me credit I'll take it.

Last edited by Richas; 10-01-2015 at 06:57 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 10-01-2015, 07:13 AM   #2917
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by dirty moose View Post
Remind me again why you should be allowed to use anything other than your brain while playing....
Remind me again why you should be allowed to use anything other than your brain, legs and hands while working....
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Old 10-01-2015, 07:44 AM   #2918
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Great analogy....
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Old 10-01-2015, 08:48 AM   #2919
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

^ It is a great analogy for people who think a poker room should be an extension of the office rather than an extension of the pub.

I don't think many recreational players think like that though.

Anyway good news that PartyPoker seem to have been reading this thread and listening to the arguments, even if Pokerstars itself have made the bare minimum of changes.
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Old 10-01-2015, 10:28 AM   #2920
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

There's a big distinction between live and online poker, you can't use the phrase 'poker room' indiscriminately like that. The more appropriate analogy for online poker is videogaming. Do people use external apps in videogames? Yes, if allowed. Should they be allowed? Pretty sure the answer is also yes, provided they're publicly available and do not automate/trivialise skilled parts of the game. This means Stars' reforms, though not going far enough re: scripts for me, are far enough for HUDs unless notecaddy producers find a way to abuse the vagueness.

I welcome the Party changes, it brings diversity in the market and means there's no good reason for people to require Stars to make these changes given those who want the changes can easily go and play on Full Tilt or Party (as well as Unibet, Microgaming, Bovada etc which already offer differentiated products).
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Old 10-01-2015, 11:14 AM   #2921
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by TheDefiniteArticle View Post
There's a big distinction between live and online poker, you can't use the phrase 'poker room' indiscriminately like that. The more appropriate analogy for online poker is videogaming. Do people use external apps in videogames? Yes, if allowed. Should they be allowed? Pretty sure the answer is also yes, provided they're publicly available and do not automate/trivialise skilled parts of the game. This means Stars' reforms, though not going far enough re: scripts for me, are far enough for HUDs unless notecaddy producers find a way to abuse the vagueness.

I welcome the Party changes, it brings diversity in the market and means there's no good reason for people to require Stars to make these changes given those who want the changes can easily go and play on Full Tilt or Party (as well as Unibet, Microgaming, Bovada etc which already offer differentiated products).
Am I naive or out of touch to believe that poker should be played the same way, either live or online?
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Old 10-01-2015, 12:11 PM   #2922
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Am I naive or out of touch to believe that poker should be played the same way, either live or online?
Perfectly possible to permit/hand out google glass or similar and introduce HUDs live. Your point isn't that it should be played the same way, it's that it should be played your way.

In any event, I think you need to substantiate that. Online and live poker clearly have structural differences (stake ranges, multi-tabling, physical tells), so the default position is surely that they should each be played according to their structure - the most fundamental distinction being the involvement of a computer, which leads to software being permissible. Your belief isn't the default position, you need to offer an argument.
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Old 10-01-2015, 12:25 PM   #2923
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDefiniteArticle View Post
There's a big distinction between live and online poker, you can't use the phrase 'poker room' indiscriminately like that. The more appropriate analogy for online poker is videogaming. Do people use external apps in videogames? Yes, if allowed. Should they be allowed? Pretty sure the answer is also yes, provided they're publicly available and do not automate/trivialise skilled parts of the game. This means Stars' reforms, though not going far enough re: scripts for me, are far enough for HUDs unless notecaddy producers find a way to abuse the vagueness.

I welcome the Party changes, it brings diversity in the market and means there's no good reason for people to require Stars to make these changes given those who want the changes can easily go and play on Full Tilt or Party (as well as Unibet, Microgaming, Bovada etc which already offer differentiated products).

Pokerstars is so dominant in the market place that it should probably be broken up to allow proper competition. Full Tilt used to provide this competition but there is no longer another site where players can go to get a similar sized player pool and therefore similar liquidity of games to Pokerstars.
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Old 10-01-2015, 12:41 PM   #2924
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

My way? I didn't invent the game. It's still the same game with the same rule structure, weather you're play 1 or 24 tables. Live or online. 1/2 or 100/200. The game it self is always the same.

Just because you have the computing power to use software doesn't mean we should. How does anyone still see it as a fair game if you're using anything 3rd party.

Here's my best argument, when baseball players were using steroids in the 90's there was no rules against it. Now there is, but no one is taking their home runs away and no is taking their salary back. They got away with it for as long as they could until it got out of control. Much like the 3rd party stuff has gotten out of control.

Steroids gave players an unfair advantage, the same way a HUD or some other software give an unfair advantage. Too bad for those people using them. You had a good run, now it's time to adjust and find your edge elsewhere. Cause that's what it's all about right... Getting that edge anyway you can....

To add one thing, I don't need a HUD to tell me that the guy in the 2 seat is raising x amount of the time. Regs that play 24 tables can't follow all that, I get it, but that's just too bad... Play less tables.
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Old 10-01-2015, 02:32 PM   #2925
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by TheDefiniteArticle View Post
There's a big distinction between live and online poker, you can't use the phrase 'poker room' indiscriminately like that. The more appropriate analogy for online poker is videogaming.


Then I mean it's a good analogy for people who see the poker client as a work app like Excel or Word, rather than a type of computer game.
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