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Old 09-30-2015, 01:29 PM   #2876
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by _dave_ View Post
It may be correct, but that's a very conservative reading of the statement. To me it seems more likely it's just a simple example than it is stating "At most, two thresholds are allowed for each stat". Otherwise why wouldn't they say that.

There's 2 pages following covering things a HUD may not do. Nowhere in this section does it say "color a stat using 3+ thresholds", or otherwise.
This is exactly what I've thought too since I first saw the rule proposal.
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Old 09-30-2015, 01:29 PM   #2877
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

TY sir
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Old 09-30-2015, 01:30 PM   #2878
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by _dave_ View Post
It may be correct, but that's a very conservative reading of the statement. To me it seems more likely it's just a simple example than it is stating "At most, two thresholds are allowed for each stat". Otherwise why wouldn't they say that.

There's 2 pages following covering things a HUD may not do. Nowhere in this section does it say "color a stat using 3+ thresholds", or otherwise.

Also there's this banning of "basing the ranges upon population based tendencies", which makes no sense. Surely they didn't pull <20%, 20-30%, >30% as their example ranges for VPIP our of thin air. If they did, it's surprisingly close to the population tendencies for certain formats.
If my interpretation of the necessary color coding changes is wrong they would have (or could still yet) told us HM2 needed more changes after we released 8385, when they contacted us to tell us NC still wasn't in compliance and Sreticentv had to make more changes which we pushed today in 8386.

*Disclaimer: I am not speaking for HM2/PT4 management in this thread. Any posts in here are my own thoughts/interpretations based on my understanding of the TPT doc and the changes HM2 has made at this point, like any other customer. I am not privy to the ongoing discussions between stars and HM2/PT4 management.

Last edited by fozzy71; 09-30-2015 at 01:37 PM.
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Old 09-30-2015, 01:33 PM   #2879
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by fozzy71 View Post
If my interpretation of the necessary color coding changes is wrong they would have told us HM2 needed more changes after we released 8385, when they contacted us to tell us NC still wasn't in compliance and Sreticentv had to make more changes which we pushed today in 8386.
But if the HEM team went beyond what Stars suggested about the color coding, they may not say anything, right? Did someone from HEM contact whoever wrote the rules regarding the specifics of the color coding maximum number of colors?
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Old 09-30-2015, 01:38 PM   #2880
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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But if the HEM team went beyond what Stars suggested about the color coding, they may not say anything, right? Did someone from HEM contact whoever wrote the rules regarding the specifics of the color coding maximum number of colors?
see the edited in disclaimer above. HM2/PT4 mgmt has had ongoing discussions with stars mgmt since before the doc was made public.

*My comments in this thread are my own and do not represent HM2/PT4 management's opinions/thoughts.
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Old 09-30-2015, 02:52 PM   #2881
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Wait,

I didn't update my HM2 since the last beta and my pay hud (which incorporates the NC2 badges), imo, is working as it is supposed to. Does this mean I have to update my HM2 asap to avoid getting banned from Stars?
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Old 09-30-2015, 03:30 PM   #2882
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

^ Yes, but I imagine they will warn you first.
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Old 09-30-2015, 03:53 PM   #2883
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by teddybloat View Post
Lots of recs enjoy using HUDs too. I imagine stars respects that.

I'd wager most HUD users are breakeven or losing players.

Tuff-fish used a HUD.

Tuff-fish.

There's a lot flanneling at the cosmetic edges here by stars.

Still no firm action on preventing data-mining. Sites offering near complete HH's and asking for $1000s to opt out. Nothing but a vague promise on that.

But clamping down hard on Huds with 4 colours.

Boss.

I'm all for stars revamping how and what 3rd party software interacts with their client. But let's tackle the stuff that genuinely undermines game integrity.
Tuff Fish back in 2004-6 aside.

I reckon <10% (if that) of recs use a HUD or even know what one is. I know lots of pros and lots of whales, no whale I've ever encountered has ever used a HUD, they dont know what it even is - im talking smart business people with a lot of money not some micro stakes fish. They assume they know what they are now but its been lost in translation so they all dont play online anymore because of 'software' other players have that they dont have that is an advantage.

Coupled with the online poker horror stories of UB/FTP/Bots/Cheaters/hole card hacks/Patrick Antonius 'software' comments and so on - none of these guys will touch online poker. Unless of course someone like Stars makes a huge deal out of the fact that 'no 3rd party software is allowed to anyone, whatsoever' and splashes it around everywhere in attempt to clean up the reputation of online poker, then you might be able to reel some fish back in. Until then its dead and getting worse by the day.
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Old 09-30-2015, 03:59 PM   #2884
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by _dave_ View Post
It may be correct, but that's a very conservative reading of the statement. To me it seems more likely it's just a simple example than it is stating "At most, two thresholds are allowed for each stat". Otherwise why wouldn't they say that.

There's 2 pages following covering things a HUD may not do. Nowhere in this section does it say "color a stat using 3+ thresholds", or otherwise.
There's two possibilities here:

1. They meant no more than two are allowed, and felt it was implied in that wording. Obviously from the responses in this thread, the wording is not ideal.
2. They meant that any number are allowed, and used an example with two because...well, I'm flummoxed as to why they would use a specific number if that was what they meant.

Given those two choices, I find it far, far more likely it was simply poor wording for the former possibility. Using a specific example of two thresholds when an unlimited number is allowed would be bizarre IMO.

But given all the confusion in this thread, I agree it should be clarified.
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Old 09-30-2015, 04:13 PM   #2885
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by dappadan777 View Post
Tuff Fish back in 2004-6 aside.

I reckon <10% (if that) of recs use a HUD or even know what one is. I know lots of pros and lots of whales, no whale I've ever encountered has ever used a HUD, they dont know what it even is - im talking smart business people with a lot of money not some micro stakes fish. They assume they know what they are now but its been lost in translation so they all dont play online anymore because of 'software' other players have that they dont have that is an advantage.

Coupled with the online poker horror stories of UB/FTP/Bots/Cheaters/hole card hacks/Patrick Antonius 'software' comments and so on - none of these guys will touch online poker. Unless of course someone like Stars makes a huge deal out of the fact that 'no 3rd party software is allowed to anyone, whatsoever' and splashes it around everywhere in attempt to clean up the reputation of online poker, then you might be able to reel some fish back in. Until then its dead and getting worse by the day.
i believe a very high % of HUD users are non-winning players, not that a very high % of non-winning players are HUD users.

fighting ingnorance, not promoting it is the way to clean up the image of the game.

there are massive game-integrity issues such as data-mining sites selling complete HH's, EV results and charging a small fortune to opt-out.

there are seating scripts that genuinely prey on recreational players.

spinwiz and having 4 colours in a HUD pale in comparison yet becuase of the misinformation promoted by some people stars have prioritised the latter cosmetic issues over the former and substantive ones.

boss.

innit.
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Old 09-30-2015, 04:15 PM   #2886
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Bobo Fett View Post
used an example with two because...well, I'm flummoxed as to why they would use a specific number if that was what they meant.
It's the smallest number of thresholds that provides a sensible real-world usage example of "low - normal - high".
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Old 09-30-2015, 04:19 PM   #2887
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Bobo Fett View Post
Given those two choices, I find it far, far more likely it was simply poor wording for the former possibility. Using a specific example of two thresholds when an unlimited number is allowed would be bizarre IMO.

But given all the confusion in this thread, I agree it should be clarified.
In keeping with the confusion about the other rules, I've redesigned my HUD to use 50 shades of grey.
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Old 09-30-2015, 04:29 PM   #2888
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I think you guys don't realize the biggest thing.

All rooms including PokerStars wish to ban all stats, software and datamining at all but it is impossible to enforce in 2015.

Do you wish to play without stats on regular basis against players who are using private software with full set of stats along with shared hand history database??

Or maybe you are so naive and think PokerStars can detect private statistical software among a hundred of other processes running on my machine? Or maybe you are thinking that stars are able to detect my private conf in skype where i am sharing my handhistory with other 5-10 grinders at my stakes?
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Old 09-30-2015, 05:23 PM   #2889
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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there are massive game-integrity issues such as data-mining sites selling complete HH's, EV results and charging a small fortune to opt-out.

there are seating scripts that genuinely prey on recreational players.

spinwiz and having 4 colours in a HUD pale in comparison yet becuase of the misinformation promoted by some people stars have prioritised the latter cosmetic issues over the former and substantive ones.

boss.

innit.
You do get that they already ban bots and data mining don't you? For both enforcement remains an issue but they will carry on catching a few.

The reason that Stars have acted upon SpinWiz and to some extent to limit the power and capabilities of HUDs is not because of some campagning or information/misinformation from some - it is that these things represent a real threat to Stars as a business.

HUDs and the power of HUDs is deterring new players. The likely breaking of SpinWiz as a scandal where players are misled as clearly as VW drivers was a shock waiting to kill their reputation and a significant revenue stream.

Stars are also putting those seating scripts and scanning software under notice.

Now there are a lot of things to be done on integrity issues by Stars and the regulatosr - pushed in part by those you have a dig at here by claiming misinformation and distorted priorities.

Just today the UKGC lauched a consultation on Crime in gambling - that is mostly money laundering stuff but buried at the end is an update on just the integrity stuff you and I want prioritising.

Quote:
7.2 The Commission is also currently developing some other areas of work, linked to preventing crime in gambling, but not included in this consultation. These are:

An assessment of whether the current controls for peer to peer poker contained in
the Remote Gambling and Software Technical Standards are effective enough at
minimising risks to the licensing objectives. We are currently gathering further
evidence to assess the need for improvements and ensure any new requirements
both provide the required level of information to consumers and deter would-be
cheaters. The information we collect from operators will be used to identify
common themes or areas requiring improvement. We expect to complete this work
by the end of 2015.
We are starting to get some momentum to clean up poker from both Stars and the UKGC - GOOD.
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Old 09-30-2015, 05:27 PM   #2890
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Remind me again why you should be allowed to use anything other than your brain while playing....
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Old 09-30-2015, 05:54 PM   #2891
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

they have banned datamining but they could actually prevent it in many formats, spin and go's being one of them.

the prescence of HUD's may or may not deter new players, but the shrieking and scaremongering surrounding them is out of proportion to their actual effect. we have on these forums the poker equivilent of low-end tabloid rags whipping up controversies. to what end i don't know.

i mean to compare spinwiz to the VW scandal is just lol bad, and shows just how ill-informed and hysterical you are.
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Old 09-30-2015, 06:23 PM   #2892
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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i mean to compare spinwiz to the VW scandal is just lol bad, and shows just how ill-informed and hysterical you are.
Well if you don't see the reputational harm issues of having authorised a form of table selection but presenting the product as a random table selection to most of the players and how that reputational harm is of similar or greater manitude to the VW row so be it.

Personally I thought it was quite an apposite and timely comparison.

The "shrieking and scaremongering" about basic HUDs is I agree somewhat overblown BUT that is part of their impact, part of why they deter some players. I seem to be in a minority of 1 (well with Stars now) in that I think HUDs should be allowed as a choice on some sites/tables but that their capabilities need to be capped by clear rules and restrictions.

The crucial bit for me is not the colur coding - it is the need to get HUD and tracker software that is approved to allow the data used to be checked by the site - is it real? Is it data mined? That is pretty key to data cheating.
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Old 09-30-2015, 06:46 PM   #2893
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

The reputational harm of spin wiz - a minor piece of software that did not allow the targeting of individual recs - was initiated in a forum currently being viewed by 121 people and the controversy whipped up by people who dont even play the format.

VW is a global scandal and one caused by a company deliberately cheating tests set by national governments in order to protect the enviroment. And broke and discussed in global media

'Similar or GREATER magnitude... Seriously?

There are seating scripts that overtly and explicitly hunt recreational players. No action.

Instead some badly worded and probably unenforcable rules that will likely give further advantage to those willing to break the new badly worded and unenforceable rules.

Flanneling at the edges and not addressing anything substantial, but doing it in a rushed and vague manner.

This is what happens when people inflate relatively minor issues whilst ignoring bigger issues that take effort to solve.
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Old 09-30-2015, 07:17 PM   #2894
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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The reputational harm of spin wiz - a minor piece of software that did not allow the targeting of individual recs - was initiated in a forum currently being viewed by 121 people and the controversy whipped up by people who dont even play the format.

VW is a global scandal and one caused by a company deliberately cheating tests set by national governments in order to protect the enviroment. And broke and discussed in global media

'Similar or GREATER magnitude... Seriously?

There are seating scripts that overtly and explicitly hunt recreational players. No action.

Instead some badly worded and probably unenforcable rules that will likely give further advantage to those willing to break the new badly worded and unenforceable rules.

Flanneling at the edges and not addressing anything substantial, but doing it in a rushed and vague manner.

This is what happens when people inflate relatively minor issues whilst ignoring bigger issues that take effort to solve.
Yes. Seriously. They had over 7m spin and go tournaments in the first ten days. It is the format they have promoted most heavily, it is the new gateway product for new players.

Having that "random" seating corrupted by a bit of software that the site approved is a staggering deception of most of the players. A few diesels in the US with dodgy software is similarly deceptive and if anything more niche than this one VW engine.

It is the deception that kills reputation. Any Spin player finding they play at a disadvantage thanks to SpinWiz will be at least as angry as a VW diesel buyer - I think more so. A fair game - a random game - is the whole offer, tweaking an EPA test regime a far smaller part of the whole car proposition.

**** what do I know? I'm only a professional Risk/Project Manager paid to maange, reduce, eliminate and mitigate risk at programme and strategic level. It was an absolute killer in this thread when Stars customer support asserted that the table selection was random.

Stars can be grateful that the media in the UK is obsessed with FOBTs - the Mail/Express/Mirror/Guardian or Dispatches or Inside Out or others could have had a field day with Spin Wiz. Worse Adelson could use it to keep Amaya out in California or New Jersey and online poker out of the US.

The VW row is California based - given that Stars is embroiled in a row there on integrity issues just what impact do you think Stars misleading players about Spin and Go would work out there?

As for seating scripts and scanning software - Stars have already said they intend to act in those areas soon. You moan about rushed but also about them not yet announcing on that issue - make your mind up - whic is it? Too rushed or too slow?

As for vague, well the PDF is the clearest explanation of the range of third party software yet - it is fairly hard work but it is actually pretty damn clear and is clearly the product of a lot of work. It really is no vague an if there is some ambiguity or lack of understanding by readers then Stars will clarify, working as they already are with the software suppliers.
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Old 09-30-2015, 07:19 PM   #2895
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

How are Pokerstars going to enforce if you have certain stats on your HUD. Pokertracker 4 may disable stats for Stars but what about other rooms. Also there's no way to control the use of custom stats.

With Spinwiz, I'm guessing there going to change/close their software but if they kept it running what can Stars really do and enforce you not to use it.
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Old 09-30-2015, 07:40 PM   #2896
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Along with banning Spinwiz and similar tools Pokerstars needs to change the logic underlying the Spin&Go lobby.

Otherwise (and I'm not going to spell out the bleeding obvious here) it is trivial for SpinWiz to change and be legal yet still achieve exactly the same functionality as they do now!

Also, when are they going to ban sharkystrator? Although Sharkystrator registers into a specific tournament it does so by creating a global waiting list of regs separate from Pokerstars' own registration process.

IMO, Pokerstars needs to ban all seating scripts that create their own player queue aka group seating scripts) independent of Pokerstars own registration process. Unfortunately the current suggested Pokerstars change to rules missed the point that needed to be banned. And that is what allows it to be easily bypassed.
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Old 09-30-2015, 07:41 PM   #2897
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

They really couldn't have a field day with spinwiz.

The effects of the software are easily reproduced by simply texting your mates when you are regging a spin lobby and then again when your lobby fills.

The lobbies are blind, not random.

Again a minor story in the backwaters of a dying internet platform is never going to approach a global scandal.

99% of spin players won't have heard of spin wiz.

This forum generally has 120 people viewing it.

Stars may want to reduce the efficiency of regs. And it's completely on them to decide what programs interact with their client and how.

But hysteria and misinformation does far more reputational harm to the game than 4 colour Huds and registration software for spins.

Theonepunter, stars can see what processes are running alongside their client, so can enforce a ban on spin wiz or any other seating software very easily.

Their policy on things that can be run on a second machine or hidden as a function within another program are much more difficult to police and will likely be circumvented by a lot of players to the further disadvantage of those of us who follow the spirit and letter of the rules.
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Old 09-30-2015, 08:02 PM   #2898
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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The effects of the software are easily reproduced by simply texting your mates when you are regging a spin lobby and then again when your lobby fills.
BS, you might be able to avoid your mates but without the seperate queue you can't coordinate with all other regs to share out the recs. If it really were as trivia as having IM up with your mates to coordinate registration people would not have paid decent cash to Spin Wiz.

You are right that two registering simultaneously with the intention of colluding is still possible but hey, all you need is a syncronised clock and an agreed registration time for that.
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Old 09-30-2015, 08:25 PM   #2899
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I wasn't suggesting that collusion was possible / probable with or without spinwiz - and spinwiz was not a collusion tool, that's another example of littlejohn-esque hysteria - just that if players want to avoid each other they still can. Spins arent a format likely to appeal to colluders lol.

having no spinwiz does make both 3 reg and 3 rec games some % more likely granted. But towards the end most spinwiz launched games contained 2 users. It's not the big rec hunting colluding machine you make it out to be (vast majority of users will have stood a better chance of 2 rec games without the software). It was a useful tool for many regs. It isn't anymore. Ho hum life goes on.

Last edited by teddybloat; 09-30-2015 at 08:32 PM.
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Old 09-30-2015, 08:48 PM   #2900
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimTamBiscuit View Post
Along with banning Spinwiz and similar tools Pokerstars needs to change the logic underlying the Spin&Go lobby.

Otherwise (and I'm not going to spell out the bleeding obvious here) it is trivial for SpinWiz to change and be legal yet still achieve exactly the same functionality as they do now!

Also, when are they going to ban sharkystrator? Although Sharkystrator registers into a specific tournament it does so by creating a global waiting list of regs separate from Pokerstars' own registration process.

IMO, Pokerstars needs to ban all seating scripts that create their own player queue aka group seating scripts) independent of Pokerstars own registration process. Unfortunately the current suggested Pokerstars change to rules missed the point that needed to be banned. And that is what allows it to be easily bypassed.
Hopefully Pokerstars have been able to see through the outrageously self serving arguments and understand that Sharkystrator is about opening tables and providing action to whoever wants it - whether that's recreational player or reg.
Keep Sharkystrator and you get good regs opening games. Get rid of Sharkystrator and you get good regs with good internet connections opening games.

I just find it unbelievable the amount of advice given in this thread by people who claim to be experts yet have no context - and they end up suggesting things like HUSNG zoom. In any corporate environment, these people wouldn't even be in the discussion.


The good news is that it seems like Pokerstars haven't been overly influenced and have done a decent job in ignoring that type of commentary at this stage.
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