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Old 09-25-2015, 07:53 PM   #2751
ArtyMcFly
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
• Reference material
Anything considered to be sophisticated in nature can no longer be used whilst the client is open
Not sure if my brain counts as "sophisticated in nature", but I'll no longer use it just to be on the safe side.
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Old 09-25-2015, 09:19 PM   #2752
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Can someone post new rules here ? Doesn't open for me.
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Old 09-25-2015, 11:08 PM   #2753
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

It looks the report is a pdf file of slides they used in some sort of presentation, so it's 37 pages long - here's a screen cap of the first couple of pages ...





Am not familiar with most of the programs they were talking about, but it seemed like PS mostly decided to stick with the changes they were proposing in the OP? Like HUDs are still allowed, and PokerSnowie can be used when the client is closed, etc.

If there's other section you want to see, and they're not too long (), I can make a screen cap of them if you still can't get the link to work ...
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Old 09-26-2015, 05:18 AM   #2754
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
It looks the report is a pdf file of slides they used in some sort of presentation, so it's 37 pages long - here's a screen cap of the first couple of pages ...





Am not familiar with most of the programs they were talking about, but it seemed like PS mostly decided to stick with the changes they were proposing in the OP? Like HUDs are still allowed, and PokerSnowie can be used when the client is closed, etc.

If there's other section you want to see, and they're not too long (), I can make a screen cap of them if you still can't get the link to work ...
Have Pokerstars published revised lists of accepted and prohibited software and if so where is it ?
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Old 09-26-2015, 09:37 AM   #2755
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by _dave_ View Post
I made a PT4 stat yesterday for "bet/check/bet from SB in limped pot HU", and shared it with some people. will this now become illegal? who the **** knows, lol.
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Old 09-26-2015, 01:07 PM   #2756
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TooCuriousso1 View Post

This is what some of the nefarious characters might do ^.

I definitely DO NOT intend on breaking the new PS rules about having charts up and I WILL NOT have them up on a side computer. But I do have an extra laptop, so I decided to display it next to my setup for DEMONSTRATION PURPOSES ONLY FOR THIS POST.


If I had to guess I would say that no one will likely do anything like this and everyone will follow the new rules and not have any charts up on the side. But... I do think a good way for PS to enforce this would be for them to go to players houses unannounced and give them quizzes on their mixed frequencies. I also think a good way to enforce it would be having a stars rep present at someone's house for 10k hands and watch them play and see if the players frequencies align with their previous 10k hands. This will likely work and further deter anyone from breaking the rules having charts up and it will be fair.



Edit:
It's just really frustrating. ... And if I follow the new rules (which I really do intend to) I will be getting absolutely, undeniably, guaranteed, 1000 ****ing % freerolled and "cheated" against because people will use it on a side machine. And PS will not be able to tell or enforce it unless people have very very precise frequencies and never deviate.
+1, it is incredibly frustrating. For myself at least I know I will absolutely be within the rules but it just feels like it is being set up for being freerolled. Considering the test for being able to reproduce the strategy without fair reference material seems to be a 70 minute video, there is no way a competent reg can’t pass this test without playing one short session without reference material. I really like the idea of going to somebodies house unannounced and quizzing them on pre flop strategies for example (well, once we know what charts are and aren’t allowed, which I still feel absolutely no closer to knowing than I did 6 weeks ago). If I can recall my exact ranges v l/j when I 3x, 3.5x, 4x, 4.5x, my exact ranges v 4bj when I 3-bet with 4 different sizes, my exact ranges facing iso shove, my exact raises facing 3-bet nai against various sizes etc etc and my opponents can’t it seems like such an obvious spot that they are not playing honestly. I really don’t see many other ways to actually enforce this either.

The most frustrating rule introduction for me is:
“Tools that either analyse specific hand histories or allow the creation of a user-defined situation, that run simulations or comparisons against player models are prohibited whilst the client is open. That is, the calculation of the following features must all be restricted whilst the client is open:
……….
• how a player model or AI engine would have played a particular hand or situation”

I just don’t see the logic to this rule. Why can’t a hand be analysed after it has occurred? Analysis of this nature affects absolutely nothing in game and is just a method of learning. This is without considering the absolute unenforceability of it. I’ll post another setup where that anyone with a more unscrupulous character could easily make use of to gain an advantage:



If someone has a similar amount of electronics what is to stop them playing on the laptop on the left hand side, having hands saved to a drive that the mac can access and having such analysis occur on the large amounts of space on the available screens? Is there really any way that this can be monitored and punished? With the current detection methods I don’t see how it is possible. A 70 minute video playing the same style is very easy to do as the analysis will not affect your in game play at all so it won’t cause any hands to be played differently in that session. Analysis of mouse clicks and movements? Well each laptop has a separate mouse so whether I played with the mac on or not the windows laptop wouldn’t experience any different user input that you could detect. Timing patterns? These are so random that I’d be amazed if they differed enough over 70 minutes to be picked up on. I mean in a normal session I often reply to people on skype/facebook/snapchat/text messages and browse Spotify/youtube for music. I can’t see how this alone wouldn’t introduce a huge variation in the time I put into decisions to mask any effect of looking at another monitor temporarily. Heck, I could even have analysis on my main screen and say 8 charts on the monitors that I know consist of a lot of mixed strats and as long as I know roughly the percentages I can pass any video review since the charts let me play better but being say 10% off my desired frequencies won’t be detectable in a single session of heavy monitoring unless I make a huge error like limping 10% of every hand type too much (and I see no reason to see why such a bias would exist).

Lest we forget that one of the most incredibly simple things to sort out, datamining, which hurts both honest regs and fish alike, still hasn't been dealt with. Regs still have access to spinlyzer and it doesn’t even seem to have been started to be dealt with (is it really so hard to come up with a way of not letting people view every table?). Then we can move on to husngs, regzclub is still readily available for anyone that wants to know how their opponents play, and as far as my understanding goes players have their stats displayed as default but must buy a membership to opt out. Precedent suggests that it is ok for regs to buy membership there since nothing happens to people that block their stats. Does this mean I can buy a membership there without repercussion? If not, why has nothing happened to anyone who has? Is it likely that there is even a definitive answer I could receive to this? I think that the lack of ability to be clear about and police even the simplest of things that are so clearly in breach of ToS and leaving people to get freerolled means that a complete lack of faith in these far more complex issues being policed are entirely reasonable.

I genuinely believe most regs just want as even a playing field as possible with skill being the largest contributor to winnings and would happily go along with most the changes with little complaint if things were clearly communicated and defined. As it stands this is not the case, the rules are in effect in 2 days and questions remain unanswered and boundaries remain undefined. I’ve already seen what happens when things remain unenforceable with people buying hhs. People who are regarded as respectable have bought them because they see how it is apparently a widely accepted practice with no punishment and are aware they are being freerolled if they don’t. This is exactly how I see this rule introduction going. I fully plan on staying within the ToS regardless of what changes are brought about but it is just so incredibly frustrating to know that I will 100% be getting freerolled by so many people.
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Old 09-26-2015, 01:14 PM   #2757
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by NellyV View Post
Have Pokerstars published revised lists of accepted and prohibited software and if so where is it ?
The report's on the pokerstars.com site (https://www.pokerstars.com/assets/common/downloads/tpt-reference-guide.pdf)- guess if people don't want to click on links, it should show up if if you google something like 'Pokerstars third party tools reference guide'?

There's just pictures and descriptions of software in the guide, so guess if they haven't updated the list of what's permitted and what isn't on the PS website, they'll be doing that soon?
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Old 09-26-2015, 02:17 PM   #2758
NellyV
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
The report's on the pokerstars.com site (https://www.pokerstars.com/assets/common/downloads/tpt-reference-guide.pdf)- guess if people don't want to click on links, it should show up if if you google something like 'Pokerstars third party tools reference guide'?

There's just pictures and descriptions of software in the guide, so guess if they haven't updated the list of what's permitted and what isn't on the PS website, they'll be doing that soon?
I have looked at that but I don't want to have to second guess what they mean. I use pretty ordinary permitted software and I want to know if it's still OK. I will drop anything which isn't but I can't if I don't know.
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Old 09-26-2015, 03:40 PM   #2759
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by NellyV View Post
Have Pokerstars published revised lists of accepted and prohibited software and if so where is it ?
At the time of writing the prohibited list has not been updated since March 2015. I presume a new list will go up fairly soon.

https://www.pokerstars.uk/poker/room/prohibited/ is the UK link. I think it auto-redirects if you're in another country.
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Old 09-26-2015, 06:05 PM   #2760
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

i'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, but the rule regarding equity simulations should only apply while sitting at a table not while the client is open. I have the client open nearly all the time (even on days off), i shouldnt have to close it just because i want to run a ppt sim
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Old 09-27-2015, 01:44 AM   #2761
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Is there something official for this new rules and where we can find it if there is?
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Old 09-27-2015, 02:03 AM   #2762
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
having hands saved to a drive that the mac can access and having such analysis occur on the large amounts of space on the available screens? Is there really any way that this can be monitored and punished?
If they wanted to, yes.
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Old 09-27-2015, 03:29 AM   #2763
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Couldn't a hud be defeated, as well as data mining, seat scripting etc, if a players name was just auto updated in game from the client side? For example you start playing luckboxfish, and the next hand he becomes Luckboxfish, hand 3 he is LUckboxfish, or just adding numbers to the end of a players name until something like 1000 iterations have been done, then it loops back to the starting point. As a human you would be able to recognize the name, and realize it was the same player, but from a programmers perspective to combine wouldn't be that fun (regex's perhaps defeat this, but I still think they could add random alphanumeric attributes inside the player name to render it impossibly complicated).
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Old 09-27-2015, 09:48 AM   #2764
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

If you are in an .eu jurisdiction the .com link for the report will redirect but you can get it at

https://www.pokerstars.eu/assets/com...ence-guide.pdf
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Old 09-27-2015, 11:29 AM   #2765
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
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Aren't new rules supposed to be in effect 28th September?
source?
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Old 09-27-2015, 12:54 PM   #2766
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by skier_5 View Post
I can confirm that PS sent out an email with the document linked to in this thread saying that the revisions in the document are planned to be effective as of Sept 28.
.
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Old 09-27-2015, 01:33 PM   #2767
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

i assume pokerstars will make some kind of announcment before the changes will go live. otherwise this would be kinda ridic.
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Old 09-27-2015, 01:52 PM   #2768
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I imagine anyone else impacted is following this thread but if you downloaded the pdf before you should know

Quote:
Last Updated: 2015-09-21
I never even got an email from them in the first place like some other people did but there were some important things in there that they added/modified one week before the deadline (which they also didn't announce anywhere publicly).
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Old 09-27-2015, 03:56 PM   #2769
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by NellyV View Post
I have looked at that but I don't want to have to second guess what they mean. I use pretty ordinary permitted software and I want to know if it's still OK. I will drop anything which isn't but I can't if I don't know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
At the time of writing the prohibited list has not been updated since March 2015. I presume a new list will go up fairly soon.

https://www.pokerstars.uk/poker/room/prohibited/ is the UK link. I think it auto-redirects if you're in another country.
A list would be helpful
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Old 09-27-2015, 05:36 PM   #2770
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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A list would be helpful
+1
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Old 09-27-2015, 06:29 PM   #2771
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Richas is going to give you a full cavity search
Oh dear me no, that is what minnions are for.
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Old 09-28-2015, 11:42 AM   #2772
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Is it Note traker feature of PT4 also not allowed from Aug 28th? since it works exactly as note caddy does, i think it isnt allowed but still iŽd like to be sure.
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Old 09-28-2015, 11:44 AM   #2773
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
i'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, but the rule regarding equity simulations should only apply while sitting at a table not while the client is open. I have the client open nearly all the time (even on days off), i shouldnt have to close it just because i want to run a ppt sim
They froze my account exactly due to this, they dont care. I even pointed out, that people which will want in future avoid these restrictions can do it with ease, they dont care. They seem like they want to do something with software, but they absolutely has no power to do so (not sure, but they prolly know it themselves).
For me its ridiculous, that spinwiz should be banned, but sharky not, or vice versa. Either allow seating scripts, or not!
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Old 09-28-2015, 11:47 AM   #2774
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Table Optimiser has had to remove most of the preset bet amounts such as 3bet/4bet/squeeze and postflop bet sizes based on limped/raised/3bet pot. I'd guess all other similar programs will follow suit.

So after hundreds of pages of people complaining about advanced NoteCaddy features/badges, seating scripts and pseudo-bots the main change implemented is to remove a basic feature of most programs which no-one complained about, has been in use for 10 years and is basically in the Stars client (as bet size buttons). Seriously wtf?
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Old 09-28-2015, 11:56 AM   #2775
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Ya ya http://prntscr.com/8lgftn
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