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Old 06-12-2015, 05:02 PM   #251
Aces123123
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Richas View Post
It would be nice if people could make up their mind re opposing this. Now EITHER restrictions mean that others would have an unfair advantage if they broke the rules OR the tools are not too powerful to make for an unfair playing environment. You can have one but not both.
It is quite possible to argue that the tools would give an unfair advantage to cheats who use them if it is against the TOS and at the same time argue that the playing field is fair as it is. Because now everyone that wants to can have access to them. But if it was against the TOS to use them only cheats would use them and thus gain an unfair advantage
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Old 06-12-2015, 05:03 PM   #252
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

wouldnt it be cool if PS made 2 systems where you can elect to play in the reg player pool with 3rd party software or elect to play the other where none is allowed and you give the right for PS to be intrusive as **** to make sure the ones cheating get caught.

Yes, others will still have an advantage by finding a work around like using another computer but it will at least reduce drastically the number of human robots which will make poker more enjoyable for the recs.
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Old 06-12-2015, 05:23 PM   #253
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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wouldnt it be cool if PS made 2 systems where you can elect to play in the reg player pool with 3rd party software or elect to play the other where none is allowed and you give the right for PS to be intrusive as **** to make sure the ones cheating get caught.
Maybe they could name the 2 systems PokerStars and Full Tilt Poker
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Old 06-12-2015, 06:04 PM   #254
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by djle2 View Post
wouldnt it be cool if PS made 2 systems where you can elect to play in the reg player pool with 3rd party software or elect to play the other where none is allowed and you give the right for PS to be intrusive as **** to make sure the ones cheating get caught.

Yes, others will still have an advantage by finding a work around like using another computer but it will at least reduce drastically the number of human robots which will make poker more enjoyable for the recs.
Worked out v well for party poker when they did that 2 years ago 😂😂😂
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Old 06-12-2015, 07:15 PM   #255
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Yep very dull dealing with personal attacks and others straw men.

Here is the problem that Stars are trying to address here. Third Party Software has got too powerful. It gives too big an advantage. The effect of adding tool after tool on the ecosystem is killing poker. This latest debate sparked by killing HUSNGs.

My view is that to allow the ecosystem to continue for all - including multi tabling regs, the solution is to restrict the capabiliies of HUDs and associated add ons. To make the HUD static so that you can set it for whatever generic data you want to see but NOT have dynamic player specific data or advice. You set your HUD with whatever STAT you want, you have your single text doc of notes for that player and that is it.

No specific stats or badges selected by software for that specific player, no badges or flashes that appear for a specific player, street or situation that gives in game advice.

That is a big restriction on current HUD capability, as would be making sure that the HUDs use is declred to the site and other players, as would the site's ability to verify the data being used to eliminate data cheating.

Now you may not like the proposal, just as you may not like outright HUD bans or annonymous tables or automated screenname changes to help protect players using no or less sophisticated software but to me it seems eminently reasonable, a rewind on HUD apability of a few years. A restriction on in game advice that is too detailed, too sophisticated and fundamentally too powerful to maintain a reasonably level playing field for all.

I get that people like their software tools but they are killing the game.

It would be nice if people could make up their mind re opposing this. Now EITHER restrictions mean that others would have an unfair advantage if they broke the rules OR the tools are not too powerful to make for an unfair playing environment. You can have one but not both.
+1 to this post
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Old 06-12-2015, 07:17 PM   #256
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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When online poker first came out over a decade ago its essence was to recreate the atmosphere and joy of playing live poker through the comfort of your own home.
I ask why should there be a distinction in the ruling between live and online ?
Amaya is basiclly an online casino so by all means treat us like customers who walk into ur own establishment.

When i go play live poker what am i allowed to use while sitting on the table ? NOTHING but my own brain.
Rules can slightly differ from one place to another but on a general note ; no smartphones, no tablets, no charts, no poker books, NOTHING.
1st offense is a warning, Your hand is automaticly mucked and/or booted from the poker room on 2nd offense.
You want to keep up with frenquencies, betting patern, etc ? use your own brain, casino wont provide you a HUD or stats on the players.
I remember playing @ WSOP vegas and this person had brought his pen and notepad with him and was literally taking notes the whole time (while playing and in between hands)
at some point the table called the floor cause he was slowing down the whole action and they ruled "not allowed to take notes or consult notepad while hand in process"

if you try to set boundaries its human nature to try and push them to the limit.
people always find a way to angleshot the system specially when whats permitted/prohibited isnt black and white.
For the sake of online poker and its future i beg you BAN EVERY 3rd party software, not some of it, not half of it, EVERYTHING !!
No room for misinterpretation and loopholes.
Give poker its true colors and purest form back like its meant to be.
I've only played in one casino (out of 25, so small sample size) that banned using phones, and they even changed that rule to allow them). What casinos ban cell phone use?
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Old 06-12-2015, 10:16 PM   #257
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

This is an interesting change in poker software ecosystem.

As creator of ICMIZER I guess we have nothing to worry about, but we have been on the list of software that is not allowed to be run at the same time as the PokerStars client for a while. I think this line is pretty thin, while our software was and stays a no-no some dynamic software which grants real time advantage AND changes its suggestions as the state of hand progreses is still "OK"?

Take all the programs that calculate hand strength dynamically for example. They provide a real time advice and value to the players and a measurable dynamic advantage, you never miss nuts, you never think you have AA when you have A4 etc. Why that is allowed, or is my understanding incorrect and they are also not allowed under new terms?

I believe that this change is closely connected to recent scandals of Skiers mysterious software, from the looks of the draft of new list it appears to be targeting a rather narrow range of software like that, with voice control or other dynamic activation during the session?

So why none of the various sorts of seating scripts are on the list? They provide real time dynamic advantage to someone who has them, and are very frustrating for recreational players. If this initiative to change software terms is done as a part of caring about your clients, why this important software sector remains unaffected?

As a vendor of poker software it is very important for me to understand your goals and values when you create those terms so we can figure out what kinds of new products we can or cannot create.

Thanks.
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Old 06-12-2015, 10:36 PM   #258
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

My thoughts on the new rules outlined in the OP:

1. As they are, the new rules need to be better defined. You cannot leave something open to interpretation such as "basic information." What is basic to one player is complex to another.

2. No matter where you place the line between what is allowed and what isn't, it will eventually become blurred.

I think it would be better to ban all third-party software. Not only because I think it is unfair to players that do not have access to or do not know about external tools, but because it would make it easier for PS to enforce the rules (the debate on whether they will or how well they enforce the rules is completely separate).
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Old 06-12-2015, 10:53 PM   #259
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

oh i moaned about scripts earlier in the thread without saying that i approve of the changes youre making

also would welcome banning huds but thats pretty w\e to me...nice job stars

notecaddy is the only one i really care about on that list

Last edited by Burnss; 06-12-2015 at 11:02 PM.
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Old 06-12-2015, 11:24 PM   #260
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Sick, didnt know about these...
http://www.pokerhuds.com/
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Old 06-12-2015, 11:25 PM   #261
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Sick, didnt know about these...
http://www.pokerhuds.com/
One streamer on twitch that is part of team pro had been using those huds on stream untill very recently.
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Old 06-13-2015, 12:09 AM   #262
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Banning propokertools/pokerstove/flopzilla seems a bit excessive to me. It's not like these are used for real time decisions.
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Old 06-13-2015, 12:50 AM   #263
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

then why care if theyre banned?
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Old 06-13-2015, 01:08 AM   #264
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

This is just an ugly can of worms poker stars is opening. Can I not use a simple calculator now to perform pot and Implied odds calculation as it's real time. I could use one even in a casino?
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Old 06-13-2015, 01:10 AM   #265
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by djle2 View Post
wouldnt it be cool if PS made 2 systems where you can elect to play in the reg player pool with 3rd party software or elect to play the other where none is allowed and you give the right for PS to be intrusive as **** to make sure the ones cheating get caught.

Yes, others will still have an advantage by finding a work around like using another computer but it will at least reduce drastically the number of human robots which will make poker more enjoyable for the recs.
I mentioned this earlier I like the idea as IPoker has this the down side is that you are fragmenting the player pool. I mean just look at the thread it is a 50/50 split on what people want so that's the kinda pool you are looking at on a post COS stars. Good point tho.
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Old 06-13-2015, 01:38 AM   #266
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

You are just giving the uninformed users sense of false security. Everyone interested can easily run their software on separate computer. Please just release an API and allow everything.
If you want to go into an already lost fight, better cut the root - hands aggregation performed by the staking groups
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Old 06-13-2015, 01:57 AM   #267
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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I mentioned this earlier I like the idea as IPoker has this the down side is that you are fragmenting the player pool. I mean just look at the thread it is a 50/50 split on what people want so that's the kinda pool you are looking at on a post COS stars. Good point tho.
Segregation of the player pool doesn't work that well in a lot of ways. It didn't work out well for Party Poker and they were forced to revert the decision.

Somewhere like Pokerstars might have a large enough field that they can segregate it without worry but I still think it's concerning to do.

If I was given the choice between playing without a HUD and with a pool of HUD-less players (including recreational players), and playing with a large group of 24 tabling HUD-using nits, I'd be choosing the HUD-less player pool all day every day.

I remember prior to Black Friday everyone kept discussing HUD's in online poker, and it truly segregated the forum with a lot of people being both for and against the use of HUD's. Back then I wasn't against HUD's at all, but given how much software has changed (like note-caddy) is scary. Knowing that if mathematically I check/fold too many flops in 3bet pots, and knowing that there's people which are shown a badge for that making me easily exploitable is... scary. It's different if someone sits down away from the table and analyzes your play to the point where they can figure out what you're doing too infrequently or frequently, but to have that information in real time without crunching numbers yourself is ruining poker.


Then again, I don't know if banning HUD's will suddenly make the games any different. I can imagine people will continue playing their own style, I can imagine the games being a little softer since they can't see what you are or aren't doing.

At the same time though I don't think HUD's are the biggest issues we're currently facing. I think seating scripts and table camping are some of the bigger issues. I miss playing prior to Black Friday, as table camping wasn't as abundant and games ran in higher numbers at all stakes. Now days you see 200nl regulars sitting out the moment a fish sits out.

If I sat down with some obscure number like 53.6bb's on a table, and watched as people flooded in to play, and I constantly kept clicking on sitting out, I could guarantee the games would barely be running. I think that's a bigger issue than HUD's, but I will say that my HUD usage is minimal unlike others.
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Old 06-13-2015, 02:28 AM   #268
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by TimStone View Post
There is a difference if u have to interpret a 50% ftocbet urself or if u get an image saying "exploitable to cbets".
Even worse are combined stats/batches which show that a player is not exploitable to a 3bet but the combination of folding too much on flop after being 3bet make a batch appear.

IN THE END ITS A COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS DISCUSSION.

Almoast every pro will push his own agenda. Im contra notecaddy bc i dont use it but pro scripts bc i use one...
The guy who develops notecaddy add ons will see nothing bad with notecaddy while scripts are crossimg a line. Etc. Everybody is looking out for his own best interest...

As being said completely pointless
Agree 100%
Cliffs of this thread
-player who doesnt reallyw know how to use a HUD, wants that HUDS get banned.

-player who uses a HUD but doesnt use a script wants scripts banned.

- player that uses a script, HUD but doesnt uses NC wants NC banned.

-sophisticated bots makers want all software allowed.

- I hate zoom poker and only play regular tables so naturally i want zoom banned cuz you know a lot of recreational players are leaving my games and playing that retarded format
(Also i use a hud so i want them to be allowed, but i dont use notecaddy and scripts so again i would like them to get banned)

Cliff of the cliffs
Timstone was right, everyone is greedy and just looks for himself/heself, including stars obv
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Old 06-13-2015, 02:31 AM   #269
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I think there is a bit of faulty logic here. Many are saying that if we went back to less software, then there would be more fish and a bigger boom, since that is what it was like in the pre-software explosion boom.

However, correlation does not always imply causation.

There obviously is a contributing factor with the training sites, software, and tools available. The same probably happened with the influx of books in the 90s.

But we're ignoring some facts.

1) Poker was more popular. People watched the WSOP and said "I can do that! I know how to play poker!" and then, they lost a lot of money, because they weren't that good.

2) A lot of fish went busto. I've read a couple people say that if software was banned, then we would all win more money because there's more fish.

- Fish aren't sitting there going "well, I want to play poker, but those damn sharks with their HUD's and note caddy" .... 'oh snap! it's all banned, where's my credit card!!!!' They don't know about it and won't come back.

- The loss of their extra money + the US shut down + several sites skipping town with money has led to a lot of people not trusting online poker and/or being broke. These fish are long gone and won't come back

Even if we granted that we would see a higher winrate if software was banned and fish came back, what do you think would happen if suddenly people won at the pre-2006 winrates? Let's say suddenly, people are averaging 10bb instead of 6bb. The rest of the economy (i.e. the fish) are going broke FASTER, not slower.

3) The world economy is not as good as it used to be.

4) The lack of bonus whoring like it used to be. 5x bonus, oh wherefore art thou! William Hill's play 2 hours, get $150 free ... pinch me, I must be dreaming!

So there are more factors involved with the fish disappearing than software, even though the tools do make smart players make more money.

--------------

Another simple truth in the poker world is, we're not all gonna make it, brah. Some people will just not be able to cut it past a certain limit. Some people will go broke too. Winning at poker, like any competitive endeavor takes work. The higher the stakes get, the harder it gets. To quote the baseball movie Moneyball, "Eventually, we all get told we're not good enough to keep playing, some get told sooner than others." (paraphrase).

Even without the tools, hard working, smarter players, will always win more. They may not have access to as much data, but they'll still analyze that data better, pay better attention, put in more work at and away from the tables, and they'll win more money than someone who does not.

HUD's and databases, automatic notes, and EV analysis are only as good as the person who is using them. You can give the fish all the tools, and some will just ignore it. Some will use some of it, and some maybe will get better and become smart players. There's players out there that know a decent amount about playing solid poker, but will still look at 96o, facing an open shove, where the shover showed AK and go "**** it, I have a feeling."

tl;dr

cliffs: modern day tools don't tell the whole story as to why poker is harder; to win long term in the game, you have to do like you always have in everything - work hard and run good when you need to.
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Old 06-13-2015, 03:00 AM   #270
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

If they ban NC they should ban HUDs also, there are mirion ways to make costum stats - notes evean w/o NC, those who use NC will find a way, unless all hh system will be changed, they can store hh in their server, they can make hh available only after 24h whatever. If hh will be saved localy nothing will change. It will only be more dificult.
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Old 06-13-2015, 03:09 AM   #271
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by oigres02 View Post
.
not really..i use hud/script...would be perfectly happy for them to go. Im sure many other people happy with it.


^^ there is clearly a difference between NC and hud stats lol.

Why do these type of discussion always bring retarded points like "will i even be able to use a calculator to calculate pot and implied odds". jfc. gtfo
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Old 06-13-2015, 03:18 AM   #272
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

i'd be quite happy with every software going away, to avoid things like this

but... also wondering how would stars enforce players not using illegal software?
Since with the hand histories this guys can build those softwares. And hand histories are quite useful to study games so killing those (although i wouldnt mind it) would probs be sad in a way. Unless stars incorporates a software like PT4 into its own software?
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Old 06-13-2015, 03:20 AM   #273
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Same here, I use a hud, I'd prefer huds were banned. A hud won't turn a losing player into a winner, probably won't even push a breakeven player to a winner. What it does is allow players to play more tables at less of a disadvantage. I'm strongly for low table limits like 4-6 tables max, and while that's another discussion I think software that makes mass tabling easier is bad for the game.
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Old 06-13-2015, 03:43 AM   #274
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Same here, I use a hud, I'd prefer huds were banned. A hud won't turn a losing player into a winner, probably won't even push a breakeven player to a winner. What it does is allow players to play more tables at less of a disadvantage. I'm strongly for low table limits like 4-6 tables max, and while that's another discussion I think software that makes mass tabling easier is bad for the game.
Only thing I could see being bad about removing the ability to easily mass table is that Supernova/Supernova elite now becomes impossible for us to achieve, resulting in lower rakeback.

BUT, I've spoken to people on Skype who only 4 table 200nl Zoom and have been Supernova before, so now we've got Zoom? Still possible.
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Old 06-13-2015, 04:22 AM   #275
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

just ban it all and save time, go the Bovada route without the anonymous tables
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