Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Internet Poker Discussions of Internet poker venues, including RB & bonuses.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-10-2015, 11:58 AM   #2676
dbsh
enthusiast
 
dbsh's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 73
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by FR-Nit View Post
http://www.file.net/process/xc.exe.html

XC.exe does exactly what i quoted from caquitows.
Interesting, thanks. I guess gameutil2.exe does the same thing.
dbsh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2015, 01:34 PM   #2677
ArtyMcFly
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
ArtyMcFly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Enchantment Under the Sea
Posts: 13,251
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by caquitows View Post
- change the ToS of PS, that yes, they could scan your computer to see if you are using other apps that are not allowed.
Every site I've played on has this clause in the ToS, and every poker client I've used has scanned my PC to see what I'm running at the same time. (The 888 software, for example, knows which app you use to listen to mp3s).

One of the problems that is showing up recently is that players can "cloak" their software from the scanning process, and in some cases it's as simple as running the software on a separate laptop that's not even connected to the main PC or even the internet. Most pro players are capable of multi-tabling, and many use multiple screens when playing. It's a not a great leap to expect some to communicate with their 'Dream Machine' for voice-activated advice.
With the right tools and/or programming nous, it's apparently possible to do the equivalent of "Ask Siri" when you're faced with a tricky river decision and you want to look up the correct move in a hurry. I can't think of any way a site can prevent players from asking a "GTO bot" for advice if it's sitting on the other side of the room.
In the competitive chess world, players aren't allowed to take their smartphones (loaded with analysis/advice software) on to the tournament floor. How can Stars stop people running software aids on separate PCs in their own basements?
ArtyMcFly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2015, 02:01 PM   #2678
FreakDaddy
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
FreakDaddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Making great poker HUDs
Posts: 13,854
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vas Deferens View Post
Well i was considering giving online poker a miss, due to the fact that i am only a recreational player, and as i am older than 29 years old i have no idea how to use HUD's tracking software and all the tools that young guys not longer than 10 years out of school use, it's computer age and it is their time.IMO it is an unfair advantage,and now with Patrick Antonius having his say about the subject,and imposing a self exile from online, i have decided to stop playing on Stars and Full Tilt due to too many regs as well as the software issue.We all know what a great player Patrick is, and if he has had a gutsful of it then what the hell,i may as well follow suit cos i dont have time to put in all the work required to learn this stuff. I just want a game where like minded donks can have some fun for a reasonable price. I have never really enjoyed playing as much as i did when playing on PKR,genuinely had FUN. One time all 9 players at our table were either dancing or swaying about at the same time, and it prompted an observer who came across our table to laugh at us all and commenting that it looked like we were all having a party, and all for the princely sum of $2. They were no concerns of Spinwiz and that sort of shyte,and seeing as you cant really multi-table grind there (you can have a few tables but not the 10 plus that's common at Stars,Tilt etc) it's fair to assume that there are no 'stables' of players congregating and colluding possibilities are limited, it is great 3D software, much better experience than boring old Stars stuff anyways, and i would assume that the cheating type people or teams would avoid PKR seeing it is low rent stakes compared to Stars therefore not being so appealing to botters etc. When someone of Antonius' caliber comments like he has then i for one will take his tip.
No Patrick quit because by his own admission, he's a "feel player", which I interpret as he really doesn't want to learn and understand GTO and the smaller equity edges. He thrives in live settings, and when the online games have dried up because the markets are being shut down, he'd prefer to go where he has the bigger edge.

Online poker is NOT live poker. They are much different, and you need to rely on more math and understanding GTO play online, than you do live. This is why so many online players can go into live play, and then start to learn the physical tells and live nuances and dominate the games, but players moving from mostly live to online play typically struggle.

So then they struggle, and guess what's the first thing they want to blame....

Yeah, it's not them unwilling to put the work in and learn... or that they aren't good enough.

It must be the software! Ban the software!

lol.... it's really not the problem, nor is it the reason the games have become more difficult.
FreakDaddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2015, 04:26 PM   #2679
Husker
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Husker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Holsten's Diner
Posts: 12,227
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vas Deferens View Post
Well i was considering giving online poker a miss, due to the fact that i am only a recreational player, and as i am older than 29 years old i have no idea how to use HUD's tracking software and all the tools that young guys not longer than 10 years out of school use, it's computer age and it is their time.
If you are unable to use a HUD it has nothing to do with the fact you're 29.
Husker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2015, 04:43 PM   #2680
dirty moose
old hand
 
dirty moose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,246
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by FreakDaddy View Post
No Patrick quit because by his own admission, he's a "feel player", which I interpret as he really doesn't want to learn and understand GTO and the smaller equity edges. He thrives in live settings, and when the online games have dried up because the markets are being shut down, he'd prefer to go where he has the bigger edge.

Online poker is NOT live poker. They are much different, and you need to rely on more math and understanding GTO play online, than you do live. This is why so many online players can go into live play, and then start to learn the physical tells and live nuances and dominate the games, but players moving from mostly live to online play typically struggle.

So then they struggle, and guess what's the first thing they want to blame....

Yeah, it's not them unwilling to put the work in and learn... or that they aren't good enough.

It must be the software! Ban the software!

lol.... it's really not the problem, nor is it the reason the games have become more difficult.
So of the software isn't the reason the games are tough, why not just get rid of it then......?
dirty moose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2015, 04:47 PM   #2681
warrenBluffit
journeyman
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Exposing shills
Posts: 389
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by FreakDaddy View Post
It must be the software! Ban the software!

lol.... it's really not the problem, nor is it the reason the games have become more difficult.
So you don't think the software is getting too powerful or has the potential to become too powerful then?
warrenBluffit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2015, 05:37 PM   #2682
dirty moose
old hand
 
dirty moose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,246
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

To think software hasn't made the games tougher is; ignorant or naive.
dirty moose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2015, 07:15 PM   #2683
Vas Deferens
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: At yours.
Posts: 210
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Husker View Post
If you are unable to use a HUD it has nothing to do with the fact you're 29.

Thanks for pointing that out Husker, what i meant by 29 was that learning computer skills was not possible when i was younger due to they hadn't been invented yet,but it is fair to assume (and indeed proved given the age of the average top Online players) that age bracket,give or take a few years either side, are all computer savvy,and therefore are competent at analysing and using the various stats available on a HUD (virtually hundreds apparently) well not virtually, but actually.

Someone posted the possibility of On-line pokers imploding, due to the software, HUD usage, and now the subject is being bandied about more often in various forums etc in poker world so natch Stars and other sites are giving this some real thought.

IMO, if you are a social player who wants value for his spare money he has available to murder at pokers, it is hard to go past PKR as a fun to play on site.
If any readers haven't played there, i challenge you to go play some games on the site and then come back here and tell us you did NOT have the best FUN ever playing online, then you can berate me for all to see.
Vas Deferens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2015, 07:21 PM   #2684
FreakDaddy
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
FreakDaddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Making great poker HUDs
Posts: 13,854
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty moose View Post
So of the software isn't the reason the games are tough, why not just get rid of it then......?
I think I stated it pretty clearly, because they are not the reason the games are tough.

The games got dramatically tougher post black Friday. And as other markets continued to close throughout Europe and the rest of the world, you lose the fish you aren't going to go through all of the hassle to play on non-regulated sites. It's as simple as that.

I've played online and live for over 11 years. I've played at high stakes for many years, and I've produced countless training videos and coached hundreds of players. My best estimation is that maybe 3% of students know how to take advantage of the software they own. Most if the difficulty of the games is because less fish are present. And, like poker has done since the first poker book was printed, more information and study about it has improved the average regular.

Look, if we took an honest poll, which probably is never going to happen, and asked the people who were anti online poker software, if they mostly played live or not, I'd bet well over 90% would say that's their main game.

The honest and fair answer is that online poker is a completely different game than live poker. If you don't like online poker, don't play it. But software, and delving into deeper aspects of the game is part of online poker. Instead of trying to strangle and control the market, allow it within some common sense regulation, to continue to evolve how it has.

I would bet my entire roll and both my children's college funds that if we banned all poker software today, the games would not change one iota in terms of their difficulty.

What I would implore stars and other companies to do is to re-visit whatever decision they do make. Because if we removed it all, I'd like to see what people's opinion of it was a year after the ban. What would they blame next?

I'm neither ignorant nor naive, but thank you.
FreakDaddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2015, 07:33 PM   #2685
TimTamBiscuit
veteran
 
TimTamBiscuit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: cRUSHed!!!!!!
Posts: 2,134
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vas Deferens View Post
Thanks for pointing that out Husker, what i meant by 29 was that learning computer skills was not possible when i was younger due to they hadn't been invented yet,but it is fair to assume (and indeed proved given the age of the average top Online players) that age bracket,give or take a few years either side, are all computer savvy,and therefore are competent at analysing and using the various stats available on a HUD (virtually hundreds apparently) well not virtually, but actually.
I am 57. I started using computers at about 14 in 1972, writing Fortran programs on paper and executing them in my head! I first got my hands on a real hardware computer two years later. Age is no barrier, rather interest and motivation. I know I am not alone. There are many older players with strong analytical skills.

I much prefer online poker play because of all the analysis and mathematics involved and because of the challenge of constantly improving to stay a winner. I hate live play with all the smelly drunks and boorish aggro behaviour and the play is way to slow and too easy to win that there is no challenge.

Last edited by TimTamBiscuit; 09-10-2015 at 07:38 PM. Reason: I also know players way better than I who don't bother using a HUD and crush midstakes!
TimTamBiscuit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2015, 07:50 PM   #2686
centgas
old hand
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Bristol, England
Posts: 1,377
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

My 2p... Spinwiz offers an advantage to players which isn't available to all. Therefore it's unfair. It's obvious why some are arguing for it -> they benefit from it.

The current situation with it, along with seating scripts, the whole bot thing. It all stinks tbh.

If there is one great thing about zoom, is that it's fair for everyone. I'm suprised PokerStars aren't doing more to promote an equal playing field in other formats.
centgas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2015, 07:51 PM   #2687
_dave_
_Pooh_Bah_
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: UK (or what remains of it)
Posts: 13,109
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

lol @ 29 being too old to know computer skills
_dave_ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2015, 07:54 PM   #2688
dirty moose
old hand
 
dirty moose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,246
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

And I'll ask again, if the software hasn't made the games tougher, than we can just do away with it and no one would notice.... Right?
dirty moose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2015, 08:13 PM   #2689
_dave_
_Pooh_Bah_
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: UK (or what remains of it)
Posts: 13,109
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Legit software that makes games tougher is not in use while playing.

Making it less convenient to play by banning TableNinja, for example - will certainly not lead to a new golden era of soft games. This should be obvious.
_dave_ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2015, 08:18 PM   #2690
warrenBluffit
journeyman
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Exposing shills
Posts: 389
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by FreakDaddy View Post
Look, if we took an honest poll, which probably is never going to happen, and asked the people who were anti online poker software, if they mostly played live or not, I'd bet well over 90% would say that's their main game.
I think you are wrong here. I believe a lot of them are online players who just want a fairer more level playing field for everyone including recreational players.
warrenBluffit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2015, 08:22 PM   #2691
dirty moose
old hand
 
dirty moose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,246
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by _dave_ View Post
Legit software that makes games tougher is not in use while playing.

Making it less convenient to play by banning TableNinja, for example - will certainly not lead to a new golden era of soft games. This should be obvious.
Then getting rid of huds and such should be no problem, yes?
dirty moose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2015, 09:04 PM   #2692
Vas Deferens
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: At yours.
Posts: 210
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimTamBiscuit View Post
I am 57. I started using computers at about 14 in 1972, writing Fortran programs on paper and executing them in my head! I first got my hands on a real hardware computer two years later. Age is no barrier, rather interest and motivation. I know I am not alone. There are many older players with strong analytical skills.

I much prefer online poker play because of all the analysis and mathematics involved and because of the challenge of constantly improving to stay a winner. I hate live play with all the smelly drunks and boorish aggro behaviour and the play is way to slow and too easy to win that there is no challenge.
Well congrats to you,the first computer i ever heard of was the Sinclair or Atari but while i was at school we had no computers whatsoever, just we were told that they were the way of the future. Perhaps cos i live DownUnder we got hold of them much later than a country with a decent sized population, mebbe like where you live.

Going by what you say, online poker must be right up your alley ie analyses,math involved etc. I agree with your analysis of live play, nothing worse than being around drunks when you are sober. Have you ever noticed how drunk people seem to run sooo good, damn frustrating especially if they are the type who miracles a winning hand consistantly and gives everyone a speech as he rakes in the pot
Vas Deferens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2015, 09:13 PM   #2693
Vas Deferens
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: At yours.
Posts: 210
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by _dave_ View Post
lol @ 29 being too old to know computer skills
Perhaps you misread it or i didnt convey the point correctly,i was meaning that guys who were the best players pre Black Friday would be around that age now and generally younger guys,fresh out of or still getting education appeared to be adept at using software and learning to use it effectively as opposed to people who were older.
The young wizards of online pokers learned to be so adept with help from software, where the older guys pre poker software learned the game through endless hours spent at the table, learned the hard way, where the wizards initially learned through software, and eventually honed that into a great live game. I trust this helps clarify what i mean or i shall contact stealthmunk for some suicide tips.
Vas Deferens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2015, 09:45 PM   #2694
_dave_
_Pooh_Bah_
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: UK (or what remains of it)
Posts: 13,109
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty moose View Post
Then getting rid of huds and such should be no problem, yes?
No, it would be a massive problem and lead to large amounts of cheating / unfair advantage in almost every game type (the proper definition, not the idiocy banded about by people too lazy to put in work itt). The type of unfair advantage PokerStars is heading towards with the rumoured new rules such as "no charts larger than 1 A4 page".

There are HUD free sites already - support them, play in their soft games.
_dave_ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2015, 10:14 PM   #2695
FreakDaddy
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
FreakDaddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Making great poker HUDs
Posts: 13,854
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty moose View Post
And I'll ask again, if the software hasn't made the games tougher, than we can just do away with it and no one would notice.... Right?
Sure, let's wipe out a small industry because we believe this is the cause. But it's not.

More importantly, you can't ban them. They will just go under ground. And then there will be a select number of people who have an even bigger "unfair advantage". It's just nonsensical to try and do it.

I think everything needs to have common sense rules. But if the software is available to all, there's no unfair advantage. Everyone has an opportunity to purchase, learn, and use the same software.
FreakDaddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2015, 10:16 PM   #2696
dirty moose
old hand
 
dirty moose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,246
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by FreakDaddy View Post
Sure, let's wipe out a small industry because we believe this is the cause. But it's not.

More importantly, you can't ban them. They will just go under ground. And then there will be a select number of people who have an even bigger "unfair advantage". It's just nonsensical to try and do it.

I think everything needs to have common sense rules. But if the software is available to all, there's no unfair advantage. Everyone has an opportunity to purchase, learn, and use the same software.

While I disagree, I'll play along for the sake of conversation. Where do the limits of software go then?
dirty moose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2015, 10:42 PM   #2697
dirty moose
old hand
 
dirty moose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,246
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I have a great idea! Tables that allow all software and tables that allow NONE! You regs can kill each other and us casual guys can gamboooool it up.
dirty moose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2015, 10:48 PM   #2698
dirty moose
old hand
 
dirty moose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,246
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Btw, has stars given an updates?
dirty moose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2015, 10:55 PM   #2699
warrenBluffit
journeyman
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Exposing shills
Posts: 389
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by FreakDaddy View Post
I think everything needs to have common sense rules. But if the software is available to all, there's no unfair advantage. Everyone has an opportunity to purchase, learn, and use the same software.
Whilst this is true, a lot of recreational/casual players don't have the money, time or dedication to do this.

As they are the life-blood of any poker site something needs to be done to protect them imo.
warrenBluffit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2015, 10:57 PM   #2700
dirty moose
old hand
 
dirty moose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,246
Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by warrenBluffit View Post
Whilst this is true, a lot of recreational/casual players don't have the money, time or dedication to do this.

As they are the life-blood of any poker site something needs to be done to protect them imo.

Why does no one else understand this?!
dirty moose is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:09 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive