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Old 08-31-2015, 07:42 PM   #2626
Richas
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by pies01 View Post
There are 2 issues re: spinwiz
1) collusion risk : hopefully any fair minded person who reads my prior post now realises that this is not practical using this software
2) unfair sitting of recreational players: there has been a lot of debate in this area. Often generated by people blind to the fact that seat scripting is used in all of poker. Pokerstars have made their decision restating that Seat scripting software is legal.
1) Software that lets you select a named player or stable of players for you to seat does aid collusion. If you can't see that, even if sometimes some other reg sneaks in to mess up the arrangement then pffft

2) Stars are silent in this PDF on it. That is not reasserting that it is OK, at least not actively. Seating software and scanning software in 6max and full ring is a disgrace that if casual players knew about would deter many, sooner or later some bright spark anti gambling documentary maker will do a proper job on it and damage poker greatly, it's not like they don't know who to call for the funding. Heads Up is already eating itself as a format so seating there whilst barking for ages will soon become a matter of historical interest.

You are right though, with the exception of zoom seat scripting has become the norm for regs - tell the recs and potential new players about it, plus the data abuse behind much of the player targeting and you lose many of the recs and put off potential new players.

Seating scripts and scanner software based upon dubious data is a PR disaster waiting to happen in an environment where active opponents (maybe smarting from someone picking up prostitutes in their casino for a documentary) could and would exploit mercilessly.

If you are interested in online poker back in the US then seating script software is an issue to be dealt with now, otherwise it is a gift to the opponents bigger than some 19 year old getting a cocktail and a gamble in a casino but blocked by wsop.com
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Old 08-31-2015, 07:55 PM   #2627
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Do you have any evidence that anyone is using SpinWiz in order to sit together and collude?
I have what the s/w does - what it facilitates. That's enough to decide on the software.

I'd love to see Stars investigate it - I don't think the collusion, if it is happening, will NOT be hard to detect, especially if Stars have a spinwiz account and watch the queue operation too.

I remember the double or nothings that ended up costing them a couple of million in compensation. When they came out some said hmm wouldn't this be easy for colluders to exploit? They did. Now we have a 2vs1 format that is again especially vulnerable to collusion - the numbers and the same stark ITM vs NOT line makes it worse in many ways.

If it has not happened then poker players are a lot more honest than history suggests. Even defenders of the software say ahh yeah but they could register at the same time via Skype or some other such BS, when actually that would get them split apart by SpinWiz and it's seat listing.

So no, I can't name them, can't give you HHs, but I have no doubt that it has been used that way.
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Old 08-31-2015, 08:01 PM   #2628
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Richas View Post
1) Software that lets you select a named player or stable of players for you to seat does aid collusion. If you can't see that, even if sometimes some other reg sneaks in to mess up the arrangement then pffft
It would be pointless to ban SpinWiz if this can very easily (100x times easier) be done manually. It typically takes more than 50 seconds to fill your tables at high buy-ins and I'm sure everyone who is below the age of 95 can click a button in 50 seconds after their friend does. With SpinWiz you just wait and pray for 20 minutes.

Seating software doesn't improve anyones' game. Auto folding however is related to calculating something in the actual game.

FYI Richas the awkward part is that everyone always complains to our support when SpinWiz seats them with their friends because of timeouts.
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Old 08-31-2015, 08:11 PM   #2629
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by MOV EAX View Post
It would be pointless to ban SpinWiz if this can very easily (100x times easier) be done manually. It typically takes more than 50 seconds to fill your tables at high buy-ins and I'm sure everyone who is below the age of 95 can click a button in 50 seconds after their friend does. With SpinWiz you just wait and pray for 20 minutes.

Seating software doesn't improve anyones' game. Auto folding however is related to calculating something in the actual game.
Oh dear me no. SpinWiz spits out two registrations as coordinated and as simultaneously as s/w can do and crucially it does it from the same point so Stars get the dual registration together. Waiting 50s for the recs on multiple tables matters not at all. It is the mark selection that is the real + for SpinWiz based collusion, after all you don't want a good player do you, they might beat 28% win. Worse if you try to collude outside of Wiz then Wiz does it's best to split you up as their marks.

Successful collusion is seating with your partner and picking a good mark - spin wiz does both
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Old 08-31-2015, 08:17 PM   #2630
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by MOV EAX View Post

Seating software doesn't improve anyones' game. Auto folding however is related to calculating something in the actual game.
You are right. Auto seat does not improve anyone's game. But it's like to play with weaker players. It's like to be a pro and join an amateur league. You have a greater edge to win, but you have a low probability to be busted.

Auto-fold does not calculate nothing. They fold hands automatically for you to focus on the hands you want to play. So, it improves your edge to win, but does not improve the player's game necessarily.

Again. For me, it's the same. For Pokerstars they are different. And I don't know why.
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Old 08-31-2015, 08:43 PM   #2631
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

This is getting painful to read. Spinwiz collusion, as in playing game after game with your card-sharing co-operating partner IS NOT A THING. Even if it were, collusion is already against the rules and very easy for Stars to spot - unlike DoNs, where "soft" collusion on the bubble is essential to a winning strategy.

Yes, there may be arguments against table selection tools - by far worse examples are found elsewhere than Spins. However, PokerStars allows table selection tools at the current time.
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Old 08-31-2015, 09:12 PM   #2632
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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This is getting painful to read.
+ 1
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Old 08-31-2015, 09:25 PM   #2633
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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I don't want to be the one to break it to you but there's not a poker game out there where this is the case
I hate to break it to you but you are deliberately lying yet again!

Zoom cash gives an equal chance whether reg or rec of being sat with any other player in the pool.

That is why I advocate a zoom-style lobby (appropriately modified where necessary to allow for variations in type of game and player pool size) for ALL forms of poker.

A zoom-style lobby (appropriately modified) for Spin&Go and Sit&Go would provide an equal chance of being sat with anyone in the player pool.
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Old 08-31-2015, 09:28 PM   #2634
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by pies01 View Post
There are 2 issues re: spinwiz
1) collusion risk : hopefully any fair minded person who reads my prior post now realises that this is not practical using this software
2) unfair sitting of recreational players: there has been a lot of debate in this area. Often generated by people blind to the fact that seat scripting is used in all of poker. Pokerstars have made their decision restating that Seat scripting software is legal.
Lying again! Deliberately again!

Seating scripts cannot be used in Zoom cash.

Adoption of a zoom-style lobby (appropriately modified) would eliminate seating scripts in regular cash games, Spin&Gos and Sit&Gos, especially if that was part of the publicly stated specific intent!
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Old 08-31-2015, 09:32 PM   #2635
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by warrenBluffit View Post
There are only 3 possible explanations for Pokerstars continuing to allow this.

1) Insanity.

2) Stupidity

3) They don't care about the longevity of their poker product.
You omitted:

4) PS are bullied by regs who threaten strikes and complain like two-year-old toddlers whose toy has been taken away.

Pokerstars is afraid of losing the rake from regs and simply don't believe there will be an influx of recs if the games were appropriately fair. Hence they pander to the two-year-old entitled ones not to take away their candy.
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Old 08-31-2015, 09:41 PM   #2636
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

It is bizarre and hypocritical that Amaya-owned FTP is progressively deliberately introducing changes to ban seating scripts across all forms of poker for the stated reason that it is bad for the poker ecosystem and bad for the enjoyment of recreational players while Amaya-owned PS says, "what problem? All seating scripts are fine." Legally this contradiction is a problem that will bite PS sooner or later. FTP press releases and actions could be used to legally prove the negligence case against Pokerstars!
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Old 08-31-2015, 09:44 PM   #2637
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

You guys who say collusion is not happening are either nave or ignoring the bleeding obvious. IMO staking stables/ common bankrolls / coach & student stables should either be illegal or transparent to Pokerstars. Collusion is obviously stable-wide and a huge problem that is difficult to detect without Pokerstars knowing who is in what stable. Let alone Skype being so easy to use to share hole cards. Plus so easy for HU huys to share hand histories on specific opponents. The whole unregulated structure is a fraud risk nightmare.

Last edited by TimTamBiscuit; 08-31-2015 at 09:46 PM. Reason: Where there's a will there's a way and there is definitely a strong incentive for weaker-skilled regs to collude to cheat.
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Old 08-31-2015, 09:45 PM   #2638
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by TimTamBiscuit View Post
I hate to break it to you but you are deliberately lying yet again!

Zoom cash gives an equal chance whether reg or rec of being sat with any other player in the pool.

That is why I advocate a zoom-style lobby (appropriately modified where necessary to allow for variations in type of game and player pool size) for ALL forms of poker.

A zoom-style lobby (appropriately modified) for Spin&Go and Sit&Go would provide an equal chance of being sat with anyone in the player pool.
Probably not at the $1 zoom level but then there's no registering at the lower levels of spins or HUSNGs either.nat the higher levels, I'm sure you would find good regs deciding whether or not to play depending on the quality of the field
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Old 08-31-2015, 09:52 PM   #2639
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by TimTamBiscuit View Post
You guys who say collusion is not happening are either nave or ignoring the bleeding obvious. IMO staking stables/ common bankrolls / coach & student stables should either be illegal or transparent to Pokerstars. Collusion is obviously stable-wide and a huge problem that is difficult to detect without Pokerstars knowing who is in what stable. Let alone Skype being so easy to use to share hole cards. PLus so easy for HU huys to share hand histories on specific opponents.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richas View Post
1) Software that lets you select a named player or stable of players for you to seat does aid collusion. If you can't see that, even if sometimes some other reg sneaks in to mess up the arrangement then pffft
If you seriously think it is possible to reduce someone's win rate by 4% through collusion in spin n gos where effective stack sizes reduce at a rapid rate then it's pretty hard to think why any other views you both spout in this thread have any merit

If collusion is the same as talking to stable members about difficult spots then yes, I'm sure this happens and I'm sure it happens in all forms of poker including live.

By all means, keep using inflammatory words like cartel, collusion, bullying, lying etc as it may get the causal reader of this thread interested and seems to help make you happy
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Old 08-31-2015, 09:54 PM   #2640
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by TimTamBiscuit View Post
You omitted:

4) PS are bullied by regs who threaten strikes and complain like two-year-old toddlers whose toy has been taken away.

Pokerstars is afraid of losing the rake from regs and simply don't believe there will be an influx of recs if the games were appropriately fair. Hence they pander to the two-year-old entitled ones not to take away their candy.
The reg strike had nothing to do with seat scripting and had everything to do with increased rake but don't let that stop you and your emotive, fanciful theories.
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Old 09-01-2015, 05:06 AM   #2641
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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If you seriously think it is possible to reduce someone's win rate by 4% through collusion in spin n gos where effective stack sizes reduce at a rapid rate then it's pretty hard to think why any other views you both spout in this thread have any merit
Yes I think it is possible - you may want to raise it in the theory thread where some better informed than I could help but even if the collusion only delivers an extra 1% split between the two colluders it is still stealing from those recs.

If there is enough skill in the format to make it grindable - as spin wiz subscribers do daily - then there is room for collusion to cheat a mark.
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Old 09-01-2015, 02:01 PM   #2642
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

It would be good to ban HUDs
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Old 09-01-2015, 06:01 PM   #2643
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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I don't want to be the one to break it to you but there's not a poker game out there where this is the case
MTTs, anything on Unibet?
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Old 09-01-2015, 06:03 PM   #2644
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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I'm currently putting my 36 pre-flop charts on to a microfiche slide about the size of a fingernail.
Good luck trying to read it in game
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Old 09-02-2015, 02:41 AM   #2645
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Good luck trying to read it in game
6-max retinal implants will be free on the NHS by 2016. Or I'll learn how to do eye surgery on YouTube or something.
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Old 09-02-2015, 01:58 PM   #2646
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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If you seriously think it is possible to reduce someone's win rate by 4% through collusion in spin n gos where effective stack sizes reduce at a rapid rate then it's pretty hard to think why any other views you both spout in this thread have any merit
So let me get this straight - you're saying that if you ("you" as in "a supposedly competent sng player") team up with a colluder against a rec that doesn't know what's happening "behind the scenes", you can't win between the two of you 4 more games (that's FOUR games) out of a hundred, simply by using precisely the aggressiveness needed in a 25bb max game. Rephrasing so that the audacity is even more obvious - the two of you ganging up can't steal ONE GAME IN 25 from the rec. I just wanna bash my head into a brick wall right now, repeatedly...

I don't care about spin&go's, about sharkwizz, about whether or not collusion is possible by using it etc. But I'm just stupefied by some of the "logic" in here. Two regs colluding and using the mandatory aggression needed in a 25bb turbo game can't steal 1 game in 25 from a rec..
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Old 09-02-2015, 03:30 PM   #2647
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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So let me get this straight - you're saying that if you ("you" as in "a supposedly competent sng player") team up with a colluder against a rec that doesn't know what's happening "behind the scenes", you can't win between the two of you 4 more games (that's FOUR games) out of a hundred, simply by using precisely the aggressiveness needed in a 25bb max game. Rephrasing so that the audacity is even more obvious - the two of you ganging up can't steal ONE GAME IN 25 from the rec. I just wanna bash my head into a brick wall right now, repeatedly...

I don't care about spin&go's, about sharkwizz, about whether or not collusion is possible by using it etc. But I'm just stupefied by some of the "logic" in here. Two regs colluding and using the mandatory aggression needed in a 25bb turbo game can't steal 1 game in 25 from a rec..
The easier aggression is part/most of it in a short stack fast blind game but remember that for colluders the ideal is to have the mark seated between them, fortunately the three seat format guarantees this :-)
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Old 09-02-2015, 05:58 PM   #2648
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Also in a 3-man format, any 2 "regs" are going to be incentivized to play tougher against each other, hoping to get HU vs. the random/fish/unknown player.

This type of reverse-collusion goes on all the time in >2 player formats.
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Old 09-02-2015, 08:15 PM   #2649
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Yes - collusion can only occur for the 3 man part of the game.
Also, to extract that 4% edge by slow playing each other may end up being counter productive eg do you fold ATo otb vs a 3 bet shove because there's not enough edge to make that call? If you fold, can you make that up in other spots? Keeping in mind that spins are hyper turbos

I think this thread had reached its useful life. Assuming pokerstars doesn't post again, I think it's now a massive waste if time.

GL all.
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Old 09-02-2015, 08:16 PM   #2650
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Yes - collusion can only occur for the 3 man part of the game.
Also, to extract that 4% edge by slow playing each other may end up being counter productive eg do you fold ATo otb vs a 3 bet shove because there's not enough edge to make that call? If you fold, can you make that up in other spots? Keeping in mind that spins are hyper turbos

I think this thread has reached its useful life. Assuming pokerstars doesn't post again, I think it's now a massive waste if time.

GL all.
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