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Old 08-26-2015, 09:52 AM   #2551
pies01
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richas View Post

As an aside SpinWiz is a tool designed to facillitate 2vs1 collusion so I'd want them prosecuted too.
This collusion comment is something you have mentioned multiple times yet has not been substantiated , has no anecdotal support and is likely not even a profitable strategy in a high rake winner take all game (as people told you when you tried to get support on the "poker theory" thread you created).

If this is the basis of all of your opinions, I don't think you're the right guy to be talking to the regulator on poker issues - by the way, i have no connection with spinwiz and only play spins 10-15% of my total games.
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Old 08-26-2015, 11:21 AM   #2552
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by pies01 View Post
This collusion comment is something you have mentioned multiple times yet has not been substantiated , has no anecdotal support and is likely not even a profitable strategy in a high rake winner take all game (as people told you when you tried to get support on the "poker theory" thread you created).

If this is the basis of all of your opinions, I don't think you're the right guy to be talking to the regulator on poker issues - by the way, i have no connection with spinwiz and only play spins 10-15% of my total games.
I think you need to reread that theory thread, it showed clearly that collusion could be demonstrated as effective even without hole card sharing.

The functionality to collude is in the application, it is what it does, it is the mutual sit list function. What else is a function to sit two players together who both choose that option but a way to set up collusion?
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Old 08-26-2015, 12:44 PM   #2553
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by TimTamBiscuit View Post
2. Players who share hands with each other. I get the impression this is rampant in the HUSNG community especially within coaching groups and within staking groups. As far as I'm aware in the 6max community this pretty much never occurs but maybe I'm the only idiot who didn't get the memo.
Some of the Russian forums that upload 'illegal' PDFs of poker books also upload millions of 6-max cashgame hand histories.
When data can be shared, it will be shared.
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Old 08-26-2015, 02:58 PM   #2554
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

http://www.husng.com/content/spin-go-hud

Is this hud going to stay legal or not?
Would rather not waste my money.
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Old 08-26-2015, 04:33 PM   #2555
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

  • NC badges gone - check
  • Spike/scatter graphs gone - check

Since I only play 6max cash (and the occasional MTT), that's all I really care about. Like the ignorant jackass I am, I consider all the talk about "enforceability", content, format etc of push charts and alike quite silly, simply because I see no future in any kind of game that can be or will soon be (weakly) solved. So I choose to fight the battles I care about and that I have a reasonable chance of winning, instead of trying to "defeat" math. If there's any hyper husngs still going on in 10 years, I'll eat my keyboard. And between now and then things will only go downhill for these sort of stillborn forms of poker.

Now onto enforceability of the things I bolded out above - people keep arguing about how "easy" it is for a programmer to bypass the rules and still produce the same functionality (SQL querying script & notepad was mentioned somewhere). Can I laugh my hairy ass off? I am by no means an expert, but I do have a bit of rdbms background. Just because something CAN be done, it does not mean it can be done in a PRACTICAL form. But hey, don't take my word for it. I look forward to those 24 tabling cybots replacing NC badges & graphs with SQL querying & notepad. I'm sure that'll prove to be just as efficient, practical and profitable.

And when (or if) PS gets their **** together and decides to stop dataming (which, as others have said, should be trivial by comparison), seat scripting and botting, the whole ecosystem should be way healthier than it is today. But things have to start somewhere, and this is a start.

Last edited by devera; 08-26-2015 at 04:42 PM.
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Old 08-26-2015, 05:55 PM   #2556
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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I think the closest one can get to the CDPA categories is probably a literary work, right? And then it seems how one interprets Ladbroke v William Hill in that a HH could arguably be regarded as a 'compilation of information'; even then, I find it difficult to see how it can be the case that each individual HH is sufficiently original to attract copyright protection. Possibly also an argument that Creation Records is wrongly decided given the EU situation but again, don't see how that gets over the originality hurdle.
Probably a literary work, and a computer generated one at that. Closest analogy in type of work being somewhere in the intersection of transcripts, news reports, and scripts. I think probably excepted from being a compilation by virtue of being a database (see below - although could an individual hand be a compilation and several a database?) But yeah, on balance I still prefer not protectable (not least because of the question of intellectual creation).

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As to this, I struggle to see how individual HHs can amount to a database; and Stars is surely not the maker of any collection of HHs?
Individual HH wouldn't necessary have to amount to a database if a group of them does (and surely it does?) Any collection licensed to a player is always going to be a subset of a collection that only Stars could have made. You still have extraction and reutilisation, which Stars would be free to license as it wishes. As for who is the maker, I think you could successfully argue that it is Stars who invests in collating presenting and maintaining the information.
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Old 08-26-2015, 06:08 PM   #2557
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Richas View Post

The functionality to collude is in the application, it is what it does, it is the mutual sit list function. What else is a function to sit two players together who both choose that option but a way to set up collusion?
There's a "sit list" option and it's there to sit weak regs to get more games per hour. There's a "friend" option and that avoids everybody on that list (and allows you to sit everyone else).
Pokerstars already have tools to identify colluders and the ramifications seems pretty bad. If you wanted to collude on Pokerstars, it's pretty hard to imagine a worse game (except HUSNGs )
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Old 08-26-2015, 06:38 PM   #2558
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by devera View Post
  • NC badges gone - check
  • Spike/scatter graphs gone - check

Since I only play 6max cash (and the occasional MTT), that's all I really care about. Like the ignorant jackass I am, I consider all the talk about "enforceability", content, format etc of push charts and alike quite silly, simply because I see no future in any kind of game that can be or will soon be (weakly) solved. So I choose to fight the battles I care about and that I have a reasonable chance of winning, instead of trying to "defeat" math. If there's any hyper husngs still going on in 10 years, I'll eat my keyboard. And between now and then things will only go downhill for these sort of stillborn forms of poker.
Pokerstars preflop obsession seems to suggest that charts are the secret to HUSNG riches when in fact, nothing could be further from the truth.


All the gto post flop tools out there at the moment like gtorb show how difficult these games are to solve for a human - even with the "solution".

On your still-born comment, recreational players like to play games they have a good chance of winning. With HUSNGs, they have something like a 47% chance of beating a good reg every game, the games take 3 minutes and people find that fun.
Saying that, your 10 year comment is likely correct and will apply to most of the current games played.
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Old 08-27-2015, 04:40 AM   #2559
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Richas View Post
The functionality to collude is in the application, it is what it does, it is the mutual sit list function. What else is a function to sit two players together who both choose that option but a way to set up collusion?


Perhaps you are too used to the bumhunting nature of poker and don't see the benefit of a lobby system where sitting worse regs is considered good for the games.

People have ego often, and would sit the other guy back. There is no collusion going on as a result of spinwiz. In fact, if 2 players are trying to sit with each other, only marking the other guy in spinwiz, they would probably expect to play at most 2 games per hour at the 100s with a small chance of meeting each other (due to the huge no. of regs).
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Old 08-27-2015, 06:25 AM   #2560
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by pies01 View Post
There's a "sit list" option and it's there to sit weak regs to get more games per hour. There's a "friend" option and that avoids everybody on that list (and allows you to sit everyone else).
Pokerstars already have tools to identify colluders and the ramifications seems pretty bad. If you wanted to collude on Pokerstars, it's pretty hard to imagine a worse game (except HUSNGs )
The three handed format makes them very vulnerable to collusion, including soft collusion. Mathematically 2vs1 in a three handed game is the simplest for collusion to work as you don't have to worry about multiple opponents actions, just the mark.

The functionality allows an unlimited stable off the same bankroll to sit with one of the soft colluders vs the one other - the seating together is prioritised over other players and it is setup to be mutual.

There is another online list to target "weak regs" from the SpinWiz queue but that is a little different and harder to use for collusion as your fellow colluder would need to register without spin wiz at the same time so you would need to communicate with them and hope to get lucky on the mutual seating rather than have the software guarantee you are with someone from your collusion list vs someone not on it.

As the sit list is mutual I think you are mistaking its job as being targetting weak regs - that's the online list that is not mutual, or visible to other SpinWiz users. The "freind list" lets SpinWiz users protect themselves from being targetted as a weak reg via the online list, plugging the "hole" that let's spin wiz users bum hunt other spin wiz users.
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Old 08-27-2015, 06:31 AM   #2561
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by watergun7 View Post


Perhaps you are too used to the bumhunting nature of poker and don't see the benefit of a lobby system where sitting worse regs is considered good for the games.

People have ego often, and would sit the other guy back. There is no collusion going on as a result of spinwiz. In fact, if 2 players are trying to sit with each other, only marking the other guy in spinwiz, they would probably expect to play at most 2 games per hour at the 100s with a small chance of meeting each other (due to the huge no. of regs).
You still don't get how it works. If you are both on the mutual sit list when you get to the front of the SpinWiz queue they prioritise matching you with your pal, in multiple games, and you are seated together vs one non spin wiz user - this will happen every time you register via SpinWiz if you have the feature on.

The functionality delivers you your colluder DESPITE the hundreds of other regs. The whole point is that makes seating with a colluder (possibly from a large group of colluders) pretty certain not unlikely - that's the function - mutual seating vs Mark.
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Old 08-27-2015, 07:06 AM   #2562
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Richas View Post
You still don't get how it works. If you are both on the mutual sit list when you get to the front of the SpinWiz queue they prioritise matching you with your pal, in multiple games, and you are seated together vs one non spin wiz user - this will happen every time you register via SpinWiz if you have the feature on.

The functionality delivers you your colluder DESPITE the hundreds of other regs. The whole point is that makes seating with a colluder (possibly from a large group of colluders) pretty certain not unlikely - that's the function - mutual seating vs Mark.
You still don't get how it works. It's easier to collude by setting up with ur buddy on skype to register at the same time- that is what spinwiz attempts to do whilst putting you in a queue.

If you plan on colluding, there is nothing worse than waiting in a queue and hoping that u as player A sits with player B, when there are other players that might also sit player B (and they will sit unknowns to get higher up in the queue) who have the same chance of being the 2nd reg in that game when B is at the end of the queue.
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Old 08-27-2015, 07:08 AM   #2563
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Idk if this is what u thought but player A and player B both marking each other in sitlist doesn't increase player A's chances over other regs who have marked B when it's B's turn in the queue.
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Old 08-27-2015, 02:02 PM   #2564
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richas View Post
As the sit list is mutual I think you are mistaking its job as being targetting weak regs - that's the online list that is not mutual, or visible to other SpinWiz users. The "freind list" lets SpinWiz users protect themselves from being targetted as a weak reg via the online list, plugging the "hole" that let's spin wiz users bum hunt other spin wiz users.
You have it backwards.

The friend list is mutual, it offers no protection from other users unless they also agree to avoid you. The sit list is not mutual.
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Old 08-27-2015, 03:09 PM   #2565
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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You have it backwards.

The friend list is mutual, it offers no protection from other users unless they also agree to avoid you. The sit list is not mutual.
Not the advice the suppliers gave in their video -. the friend list stops that user sitting you, it is not mutual.

A mutual sit list means that that player is prioritised over all others whichever of you is at the front of the queue you get matched. If you have many mutuals then you will almost invariably get one from your stable of mutuals and one non spinwiz user.

If you have them listed and they don't have you listed then only if you are first in the queue and only if there is no mutual sitlist player in the queue will they be seated with you, again prioritised over waiting for another non spinwiz user. So yes you can use sitlists to target weak regs so you end up with one identified weak reg and one non spinwiz user but if you are targetting them and they don't want to be hunted by you then they add you to their friend list to block you.

At least that's what the video says.

The latest version sems to improve the visibility of your being hunted which is nice but does stuff all to stop a mutual sit list being a collusion tool. Indeed a new feature means that you can limit tables with sitlisted players which would help mask the actions of a stable to the mark - so the latest update makes it a slightly better collusion tool.
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Old 08-27-2015, 03:18 PM   #2566
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by watergun7 View Post
Idk if this is what u thought but player A and player B both marking each other in sitlist doesn't increase player A's chances over other regs who have marked B when it's B's turn in the queue.
I did take from the FAQ that mutuals were prioritised (your choice of player to sit is prioritised if you are at the front of the queue, your scenario is only when the hunter is at the front of the queue) but even if I am wrong about that and if you get to the front you are also hunted all they need to do is block the unwanted hunting player via the friend list and bingo the reg player he gets is just his mutually sitting stable again.
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Old 08-27-2015, 03:53 PM   #2567
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

The friend list doesn't work like that
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Old 08-27-2015, 04:05 PM   #2568
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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I did take from the FAQ that mutuals were prioritised (your choice of player to sit is prioritised if you are at the front of the queue, your scenario is only when the hunter is at the front of the queue) but even if I am wrong about that and if you get to the front you are also hunted all they need to do is block the unwanted hunting player via the friend list and bingo the reg player he gets is just his mutually sitting stable again.
Wait, you think if you put someone on friend list that will stop him from hunting you (sitting you)? Lol. All that it does is you don't sit someone (basically sit everyone else, that's for what friend list is used). If you mark him as a friend, and he has you marked as sitlist he will 100% keep sitting you.

Last edited by kobmish; 08-27-2015 at 04:23 PM.
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Old 08-27-2015, 04:30 PM   #2569
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Wait, you think if you put someone on friend list that will stop him from hunting you (sitting you)? Lol. All that it does is you don't sit someone (basically sit everyone else, that's for what friend list is used). If you mark him as a friend, and he has you marked as sitlist he will 100% keep sitting you.
Well its a terrible feature then, if you can't block others hunting you then the subscription is a mere liability. Surely it has to have a feature to block the hunters?
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Old 08-27-2015, 07:21 PM   #2570
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Richas, I'm the developer of SpinWiz and I can confirm the friend list doesn't protect you from anyone. It's a reverse sit list made for those who want to sit more players than they want to avoid.

Only a moron would use SpinWiz to get onto same tables as their friends because every time your friend reaches #1 you have small chance to sit him at buy-ins above $30.
It could work at $7 if you're interested.
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Old 08-27-2015, 07:47 PM   #2571
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Well its a terrible feature then, if you can't block others hunting you then the subscription is a mere liability. Surely it has to have a feature to block the hunters?
Actually that is the brilliance of Spinwiz design:

Weak regs can't use Spinwiz or they will be bumhunted to death!

This forces weak regs to drop down to where they might be strong regs that won't be targeted, achieving the lobby manipulation desired by strong regs:

Strong regs monopolise the recs at their stake level.

SpinWiz appears to be an open tool but actually enforces the strong regs "ownership" of the lobby.

Only strong regs and misled fools use SpinWiz.
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Old 08-27-2015, 08:03 PM   #2572
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by TimTamBiscuit View Post
Only strong regs and misled fools use SpinWiz.
or those who want to minimize the risk of facing two regs.
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Old 08-27-2015, 09:17 PM   #2573
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

We should take scalpels away from surgeons because they could be used to kill someone. 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes
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Old 08-27-2015, 10:11 PM   #2574
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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HUDs = mass multitabling

mass multitabling = slow games

1 tabling recs = get bored

get bored = no fun

no fun = recs leave and don't come back

no recs = online poker dies

Solution = ban HUDs or limit number of tables.

A lot of you guys quibbling over trivial software changes need to wake up. Online poker won't exist in 10 years unless something radical is done to rebalance the ecosystem.
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Old 08-28-2015, 02:27 AM   #2575
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by TimTamBiscuit View Post
Actually that is the brilliance of Spinwiz design:

Weak regs can't use Spinwiz or they will be bumhunted to death!

This forces weak regs to drop down to where they might be strong regs that won't be targeted, achieving a situation where the weakest bumhunters need to **** off back to 6 max and full ring where they can wither and die as poker players.
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