3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes
09-25-2015
, 11:08 PM
It looks the report is a pdf file of slides they used in some sort of presentation, so it's 37 pages long - here's a screen cap of the first couple of pages ...
Am not familiar with most of the programs they were talking about, but it seemed like PS mostly decided to stick with the changes they were proposing in the OP? Like HUDs are still allowed, and PokerSnowie can be used when the client is closed, etc.
If there's other section you want to see, and they're not too long (
), I can make a screen cap of them if you still can't get the link to work ...
Am not familiar with most of the programs they were talking about, but it seemed like PS mostly decided to stick with the changes they were proposing in the OP? Like HUDs are still allowed, and PokerSnowie can be used when the client is closed, etc.
If there's other section you want to see, and they're not too long (
), I can make a screen cap of them if you still can't get the link to work ...
09-26-2015
, 05:18 AM
Quote:
It looks the report is a pdf file of slides they used in some sort of presentation, so it's 37 pages long - here's a screen cap of the first couple of pages ...
Am not familiar with most of the programs they were talking about, but it seemed like PS mostly decided to stick with the changes they were proposing in the OP? Like HUDs are still allowed, and PokerSnowie can be used when the client is closed, etc.
If there's other section you want to see, and they're not too long (), I can make a screen cap of them if you still can't get the link to work ...
Am not familiar with most of the programs they were talking about, but it seemed like PS mostly decided to stick with the changes they were proposing in the OP? Like HUDs are still allowed, and PokerSnowie can be used when the client is closed, etc.
If there's other section you want to see, and they're not too long (
), I can make a screen cap of them if you still can't get the link to work ...
09-26-2015
, 09:37 AM
09-26-2015
, 01:07 PM
Respond on 2p2
+1, it is incredibly frustrating. For myself at least I know I will absolutely be within the rules but it just feels like it is being set up for being freerolled. Considering the test for being able to reproduce the strategy without fair reference material seems to be a 70 minute video, there is no way a competent reg can’t pass this test without playing one short session without reference material. I really like the idea of going to somebodies house unannounced and quizzing them on pre flop strategies for example (well, once we know what charts are and aren’t allowed, which I still feel absolutely no closer to knowing than I did 6 weeks ago). If I can recall my exact ranges v l/j when I 3x, 3.5x, 4x, 4.5x, my exact ranges v 4bj when I 3-bet with 4 different sizes, my exact ranges facing iso shove, my exact raises facing 3-bet nai against various sizes etc etc and my opponents can’t it seems like such an obvious spot that they are not playing honestly. I really don’t see many other ways to actually enforce this either.
The most frustrating rule introduction for me is:
“Tools that either analyse specific hand histories or allow the creation of a user-defined situation, that run simulations or comparisons against player models are prohibited whilst the client is open. That is, the calculation of the following features must all be restricted whilst the client is open:
……….
• how a player model or AI engine would have played a particular hand or situation”
I just don’t see the logic to this rule. Why can’t a hand be analysed after it has occurred? Analysis of this nature affects absolutely nothing in game and is just a method of learning. This is without considering the absolute unenforceability of it. I’ll post another setup where that anyone with a more unscrupulous character could easily make use of to gain an advantage:
If someone has a similar amount of electronics what is to stop them playing on the laptop on the left hand side, having hands saved to a drive that the mac can access and having such analysis occur on the large amounts of space on the available screens? Is there really any way that this can be monitored and punished? With the current detection methods I don’t see how it is possible. A 70 minute video playing the same style is very easy to do as the analysis will not affect your in game play at all so it won’t cause any hands to be played differently in that session. Analysis of mouse clicks and movements? Well each laptop has a separate mouse so whether I played with the mac on or not the windows laptop wouldn’t experience any different user input that you could detect. Timing patterns? These are so random that I’d be amazed if they differed enough over 70 minutes to be picked up on. I mean in a normal session I often reply to people on skype/facebook/snapchat/text messages and browse Spotify/youtube for music. I can’t see how this alone wouldn’t introduce a huge variation in the time I put into decisions to mask any effect of looking at another monitor temporarily. Heck, I could even have analysis on my main screen and say 8 charts on the monitors that I know consist of a lot of mixed strats and as long as I know roughly the percentages I can pass any video review since the charts let me play better but being say 10% off my desired frequencies won’t be detectable in a single session of heavy monitoring unless I make a huge error like limping 10% of every hand type too much (and I see no reason to see why such a bias would exist).
Lest we forget that one of the most incredibly simple things to sort out, datamining, which hurts both honest regs and fish alike, still hasn't been dealt with. Regs still have access to spinlyzer and it doesn’t even seem to have been started to be dealt with (is it really so hard to come up with a way of not letting people view every table?). Then we can move on to husngs, regzclub is still readily available for anyone that wants to know how their opponents play, and as far as my understanding goes players have their stats displayed as default but must buy a membership to opt out. Precedent suggests that it is ok for regs to buy membership there since nothing happens to people that block their stats. Does this mean I can buy a membership there without repercussion? If not, why has nothing happened to anyone who has? Is it likely that there is even a definitive answer I could receive to this? I think that the lack of ability to be clear about and police even the simplest of things that are so clearly in breach of ToS and leaving people to get freerolled means that a complete lack of faith in these far more complex issues being policed are entirely reasonable.
I genuinely believe most regs just want as even a playing field as possible with skill being the largest contributor to winnings and would happily go along with most the changes with little complaint if things were clearly communicated and defined. As it stands this is not the case, the rules are in effect in 2 days and questions remain unanswered and boundaries remain undefined. I’ve already seen what happens when things remain unenforceable with people buying hhs. People who are regarded as respectable have bought them because they see how it is apparently a widely accepted practice with no punishment and are aware they are being freerolled if they don’t. This is exactly how I see this rule introduction going. I fully plan on staying within the ToS regardless of what changes are brought about but it is just so incredibly frustrating to know that I will 100% be getting freerolled by so many people.
Quote:
This is what some of the nefarious characters might do ^.
I definitely DO NOT intend on breaking the new PS rules about having charts up and I WILL NOT have them up on a side computer. But I do have an extra laptop, so I decided to display it next to my setup for DEMONSTRATION PURPOSES ONLY FOR THIS POST.
If I had to guess I would say that no one will likely do anything like this and everyone will follow the new rules and not have any charts up on the side. But... I do think a good way for PS to enforce this would be for them to go to players houses unannounced and give them quizzes on their mixed frequencies. I also think a good way to enforce it would be having a stars rep present at someone's house for 10k hands and watch them play and see if the players frequencies align with their previous 10k hands. This will likely work and further deter anyone from breaking the rules having charts up and it will be fair.
Edit:
It's just really frustrating. ... And if I follow the new rules (which I really do intend to) I will be getting absolutely, undeniably, guaranteed, 1000 ****ing % freerolled and "cheated" against because people will use it on a side machine. And PS will not be able to tell or enforce it unless people have very very precise frequencies and never deviate.
This is what some of the nefarious characters might do ^.
I definitely DO NOT intend on breaking the new PS rules about having charts up and I WILL NOT have them up on a side computer. But I do have an extra laptop, so I decided to display it next to my setup for DEMONSTRATION PURPOSES ONLY FOR THIS POST.
If I had to guess I would say that no one will likely do anything like this and everyone will follow the new rules and not have any charts up on the side. But... I do think a good way for PS to enforce this would be for them to go to players houses unannounced and give them quizzes on their mixed frequencies. I also think a good way to enforce it would be having a stars rep present at someone's house for 10k hands and watch them play and see if the players frequencies align with their previous 10k hands. This will likely work and further deter anyone from breaking the rules having charts up and it will be fair.
Edit:
It's just really frustrating. ... And if I follow the new rules (which I really do intend to) I will be getting absolutely, undeniably, guaranteed, 1000 ****ing % freerolled and "cheated" against because people will use it on a side machine. And PS will not be able to tell or enforce it unless people have very very precise frequencies and never deviate.
The most frustrating rule introduction for me is:
“Tools that either analyse specific hand histories or allow the creation of a user-defined situation, that run simulations or comparisons against player models are prohibited whilst the client is open. That is, the calculation of the following features must all be restricted whilst the client is open:
……….
• how a player model or AI engine would have played a particular hand or situation”
I just don’t see the logic to this rule. Why can’t a hand be analysed after it has occurred? Analysis of this nature affects absolutely nothing in game and is just a method of learning. This is without considering the absolute unenforceability of it. I’ll post another setup where that anyone with a more unscrupulous character could easily make use of to gain an advantage:
If someone has a similar amount of electronics what is to stop them playing on the laptop on the left hand side, having hands saved to a drive that the mac can access and having such analysis occur on the large amounts of space on the available screens? Is there really any way that this can be monitored and punished? With the current detection methods I don’t see how it is possible. A 70 minute video playing the same style is very easy to do as the analysis will not affect your in game play at all so it won’t cause any hands to be played differently in that session. Analysis of mouse clicks and movements? Well each laptop has a separate mouse so whether I played with the mac on or not the windows laptop wouldn’t experience any different user input that you could detect. Timing patterns? These are so random that I’d be amazed if they differed enough over 70 minutes to be picked up on. I mean in a normal session I often reply to people on skype/facebook/snapchat/text messages and browse Spotify/youtube for music. I can’t see how this alone wouldn’t introduce a huge variation in the time I put into decisions to mask any effect of looking at another monitor temporarily. Heck, I could even have analysis on my main screen and say 8 charts on the monitors that I know consist of a lot of mixed strats and as long as I know roughly the percentages I can pass any video review since the charts let me play better but being say 10% off my desired frequencies won’t be detectable in a single session of heavy monitoring unless I make a huge error like limping 10% of every hand type too much (and I see no reason to see why such a bias would exist).
Lest we forget that one of the most incredibly simple things to sort out, datamining, which hurts both honest regs and fish alike, still hasn't been dealt with. Regs still have access to spinlyzer and it doesn’t even seem to have been started to be dealt with (is it really so hard to come up with a way of not letting people view every table?). Then we can move on to husngs, regzclub is still readily available for anyone that wants to know how their opponents play, and as far as my understanding goes players have their stats displayed as default but must buy a membership to opt out. Precedent suggests that it is ok for regs to buy membership there since nothing happens to people that block their stats. Does this mean I can buy a membership there without repercussion? If not, why has nothing happened to anyone who has? Is it likely that there is even a definitive answer I could receive to this? I think that the lack of ability to be clear about and police even the simplest of things that are so clearly in breach of ToS and leaving people to get freerolled means that a complete lack of faith in these far more complex issues being policed are entirely reasonable.
I genuinely believe most regs just want as even a playing field as possible with skill being the largest contributor to winnings and would happily go along with most the changes with little complaint if things were clearly communicated and defined. As it stands this is not the case, the rules are in effect in 2 days and questions remain unanswered and boundaries remain undefined. I’ve already seen what happens when things remain unenforceable with people buying hhs. People who are regarded as respectable have bought them because they see how it is apparently a widely accepted practice with no punishment and are aware they are being freerolled if they don’t. This is exactly how I see this rule introduction going. I fully plan on staying within the ToS regardless of what changes are brought about but it is just so incredibly frustrating to know that I will 100% be getting freerolled by so many people.
09-27-2015
, 03:29 AM
09-27-2015
, 12:54 PM
09-27-2015
, 01:52 PM
09-27-2015
, 03:56 PM
Quote:
At the time of writing the prohibited list has not been updated since March 2015. I presume a new list will go up fairly soon.
https://www.pokerstars.uk/poker/room/prohibited/ is the UK link. I think it auto-redirects if you're in another country.
https://www.pokerstars.uk/poker/room/prohibited/ is the UK link. I think it auto-redirects if you're in another country.
09-28-2015
, 11:42 AM
