3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes - Page 79 - Internet Poker

^^This is a pretty accurate description of my views too FWIW. 'Purity' arguments are as valueless as any other argument which suggests tradition has intrinsic value.

Quote

06-30-2015 , 10:47 AM

#1952

mme

old hand

Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 1,668

your favorite tools are outdated. you send slingshots to a battleground full of sharks with lasers. so no idea how the idea of selling stones to idiots is of any relevance.

Quote

06-30-2015 , 12:47 PM

#1953

MrJuliusDhelas

banned

Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 290

Simple questions

1 - Lets analyse a winning z200 sh player , who has 3bb 100 , how much does he win because of "software" progs ? u must be able to quantitize this and this should be the first step if u dont know the % of win rate he has becayse of x or y tools then u simply are guessing the first step is accurate information .

2 - Lets suppose all is banned , however it will be probably impossible to control datamining + hm2 + other developes who can come up with new products
a player who plays z200 , loads offline the hands in his program hm2 for example
makes general analysys of ranges , + pre and post flop actions , either writes in the stars notes with respectiv color or creates an excell with easy acess
and here it is , the same thing will happen he needs to this analysys prolly 1 week
or twice month

Some people need 1 day others 1 year others never understand

In music piracy , theres 1 thing called digital format , and even with codes and blueprints when audio goes OUT to the columns...theres just nothing u can do

ofc u can waste time thinking of complex theories and ways but in the end audio goes out and u dont need to be einstein to understand the process

Quote

06-30-2015 , 01:49 PM

#1954

0xRNG

newbie

Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 44

Quote:

Originally Posted by mme

there is no such ting as locked-down-on-a-computer. the nsa neither confirms nor denies this.

There is. Not 100% of course, but you can lock down ps client easily, look at solutions for other online games, valve anti-cheat being one of many.
With current setup cheating is trivial.

If there is a need for 3d party app providers, a closed ecosystem should be provided by ps, something like the apple app store.

Quote

06-30-2015 , 02:19 PM

#1955

worried

banned

Join Date: Mar 2015 Posts: 527

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0xRNG

so how does the world work? care to enlighten us?

You buy a program that does the work for you....

Quote

06-30-2015 , 02:50 PM

#1956

ArtyMcFly

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 13,256

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrJuliusDhelas

1 - Lets analyse a winning z200 sh player , who has 3bb 100 , how much does he win because of "software" progs ?

Do you think there are many 200NLz players winning at 3bb/100?

The average winrate (after Supernova rakeback) of the top 100 grinders of 200NLz about a year ago was 1.7bb/100.

I understand that the biggest winner was a bot.

For PLO, it's even worse.

At PLO200z the average winrate (including Supernova rakeback) of the 100 players with the most volume at PLO200 zoom was just 0.79bb/100

Most of the regs are using HUDs, Notecaddy and other software, and they're still losing! And the reason why? The majority of the biggest winners at PLO100 and PLO200 are/were bots. And Stars is still allowing some of them to play, despite mountains of evidence of cheating.

This is why our whole debate about HUDs or Notecaddy is completely academic. The bots are already here, they are crushing the players that use HUDs and NC, and Stars doesn't appear to give a single ****.

Last edited by ArtyMcFly; 06-30-2015 at 02:58 PM.

Quote

06-30-2015 , 02:55 PM

#1957

worried

banned

Join Date: Mar 2015 Posts: 527

so disturbing

Quote

06-30-2015 , 03:41 PM

#1958

MrJuliusDhelas

banned

Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 290

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly

Do you think there are many 200NLz players winning at 3bb/100?

The average winrate (after Supernova rakeback) of the top 100 grinders of 200NLz about a year ago was 1.7bb/100.

Although i understand the questions u raise

btw i already spoke about bots in the first days of this thread

u still dont answer the 2 questions i raised

so while the facts u describe are probably true

its just a differente way to make it clear 99% of the discussion in this

thread its just complete waste of time

because we have all the priorities inverted

Quote

06-30-2015 , 07:42 PM

#1959

TimTamBiscuit

veteran

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,134

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrJuliusDhelas

Quote:

2 - Lets suppose all is banned , however it will be probably impossible to control datamining + hm2 + other developes who can come up with new products
a player who plays z200 , loads offline the hands in his program hm2 for example
makes general analysys of ranges , + pre and post flop actions , either writes in the stars notes with respectiv color or creates an excell with easy acess
and here it is , the same thing will happen he needs to this analysys prolly 1 week
or twice month

I don't datamine but I try to be disciplined enough that I do post-session analysis every day. I think it gives an edge in Zoom to review session hands from various angles and make Pokerstars Notes and color codes accordingly for later in-game use. I assume that all consistent winning players are doing this. I believe the difference between winning players and others is partly talent but mostly lots of hard work.

In a possible new world where in-game third party tools were banned, I believe post-session analysis with third party software will become much more important. That is why I think hard working players will gain an even bigger edge than today if in-game software is banned.

Hardworking players will still have in-game notes as good as they do today while lazy players have less than today.

Last edited by TimTamBiscuit; 06-30-2015 at 07:49 PM.

Quote

06-30-2015 , 08:05 PM

#1960

TheDefiniteArticle

Indecisive

Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 14,123

^^My problem with this is that notetaking is a menial task and beyond some basics has little to do with one's skill and ability to play poker.

Quote

06-30-2015 , 08:31 PM

#1961

TimTamBiscuit

veteran

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,134

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDefiniteArticle

^^My problem with this is that notetaking is a menial task and beyond some basics has little to do with one's skill and ability to play poker.

I don't agree with this. Your statement is true of simple notes and obvious leaks of recs and regs alike.

It is not true of the complex analysis and complex notes I make to exploit average to strong regs. This analysis is among the most enjoyable intellectual puzzle-solving work I ever do. I find it extremely satisfying to find a reg leak and then cunningly figure out how to exploit it in such a way that the reg is unlikely to ever figure out or even notice that he is doing anything wrong. A simple example might be poor pre-flop range construction in a certain position that leads to lack of board coverage on certain board run outs leaving the reg vulnerable to aggressive counter play in those spots. And mass-tabling regs tend to have poor pre-flop range construction to allow them fewer difficult post-flop spots so they can more easily robotically mass-table.

Paradoxically, if in-game third party software tools are banned they will become more important not less. Off-game analysis tools to find leaks to exploit would be more important not less. NC can already color code Pokerstars players. They would need to develop a feature to offline port NC notes that appear today in HEM pop-ups , badges and stats into the pokerstars client's notes box in such a way to retain as much usable info as possible.

New third party tools/features unknown today would develop to assist in leak-finding and exploiting regs and optimising what little info players could have in-game.

Last edited by TimTamBiscuit; 06-30-2015 at 08:36 PM.

Quote

06-30-2015 , 11:49 PM

#1962

MrJuliusDhelas

banned

Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 290

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimTamBiscuit

I don't believe it is possible to "quantitize" this in any meaningful way because the whole 200z pool is probably using third party software including almost all recreational players. Some use it better than others but I believe that is because their underlying poker ability allows them to make better use of the tools. It is not the tools per se but the underlying poker ability that differentiates players at z200.

Today's world where everyone at z200 uses at least a HUD would be very different from a world without a HUD. Both the winning z200 player and the whole pool would have changed/adapted. So comparing now with 3rd party tools to after w/o third party tools is like comparing apples to oranges and can't be done.

The primary effect of no third party tools would be to make it more difficult to robotically mass table. Today most mass tablers try to play a GTOish game (but this is theoretically impossible at 6-max and only holds if the whole table cooperates) while regulars who prefer to play fewer tables feed off both the recs and the mass-tabling regs by exploiting the mass tablers failure to adapt appropriately due to lack of observation caused by their mass-tabling.

I don't datamine but I try to be disciplined enough that I do post-session analysis every day. I think it gives an edge in Zoom to review session hands from various angles and make Pokerstars Notes and color codes accordingly for later in-game use. I assume that all consistent winning players are doing this. I believe the difference between winning players and others is partly talent but mostly lots of hard work.

In a possible new world where in-game third party tools were banned, I believe post-session analysis with third party software will become much more important. That is why I think hard working players will gain an even bigger edge than today if in-game software is banned.

Hardworking players will still have in-game notes as good as they do today while lazy players have less than today.

[B]The point is , if u dont know how much those 3rd ptools are actually
improving the winrate in theory u cannot say they give a big edge
or are the reason the world is ending

U need facts , u need someone who plays 400k hands with no hud
but just uses notes , again 400k using a hud , and 400k using pokerstove + hud + other programs , and maybe after 100 players do this u can have somet more substantial.

we all know there is an edge but it seems to me such a basic thing to do

I am if i can say so a decent player in 1 format and im in the shark leaderboard for over 3 years , i coach players

I use pt4+auto regist. , all the time i see guys who pay me to coach them asking
what do u think of this prog , and this 1 ? and that 1 ? they buy everything
but they have less than half of my winrate most of them are basically too expensive and obsolete really fast , or will make them be in the best scenario

To me its clear the first step is to have at least reliable information

I can admit that some programs might give 100% edge others 75% others 20% others 1 % i dont know
u need to analyse everything other approaches are in my view
incompetence because they rely on impressions not facts

Quote

06-30-2015 , 11:55 PM

#1963

MrJuliusDhelas

banned

Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 290

but it seems to me such a basic thing to do

(This could be done as a research study even by stars itself using players sne of several formats or contacting regs or in another way , ofc people can say how can we chek the veracity of the results etc
- welcome to the digital world - only datamining could allow that
stars themself collecting and analysing ? or ....

Quote

07-01-2015 , 12:55 AM

#1964

AJackson

old hand

Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 1,905

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimTamBiscuit

I don't like live poker. I find it way too slow and boring. No offense intended, but there are also a lot of unsavoury characters at the table I'd rather not meet IRL. Online I don't have to meet anyone.

I work very hard away from the table. I am confident in a world of banned software in-game my off-table work would see me more profitable in this return to a former era in-game.

However, I'd have less fun because I can't play with my favourite tools and keep refining them along with my own understanding of the game.

Don't ignore that many players consider part of their poker fun to be having fun with the various tools while playing poker. Maybe some others hate using these tools. I don't know. I can't speak for them.

Are you me?

I really enjoy playing with software. Give me a new piece of software and I would happy spend the next 12 hours (or multiple days) exploring it's functions.

That's what I really love about on line poker. I get to make my living immersing myself in a sea of data and compete against smart and motivated opponents.

Weird? Probably.

It would take away from my enjoyment if Stars took that away.

But in the end it really doesn't matter. Keep the rules the same, restrict software, ban all software (with the caveat that the rules are enforceable). I've been successful for 10+ years and besides an exceptionally good 2007 each year is better than the previous. Regardless of the rules I'll succeed because I work harder and more efficiently than most of my opponents.

Quote

07-01-2015 , 02:37 AM

#1965

heathen1

enthusiast

Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 86

Some of us enjoy playing poker not playing with software.

Quote

07-01-2015 , 02:54 AM

#1966

M_Acevedo

centurion

Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 158

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimTamBiscuit

I don't think it is in Pokerstars best interests to assume that online poker should be some kind of facsimile of real world poker.

For me enjoying playing the game of poker online is much different to the game of poker live: I greatly enjoy using the various tools to study the game away from the tables and refining my HUD to best suit my latest ideas on the table.

I don't like live poker. I find it way too slow and boring. No offense intended, but there are also a lot of unsavoury characters at the table I'd rather not meet IRL. Online I don't have to meet anyone.

I work very hard away from the table. I am confident in a world of banned software in-game my off-table work would see me more profitable in this return to a former era in-game.

However, I'd have less fun because I can't play with my favourite tools and keep refining them along with my own understanding of the game.

Don't ignore that many players consider part of their poker fun to be having fun with the various tools while playing poker. Maybe some others hate using these tools. I don't know. I can't speak for them.

But smart phones and X-Boxes and all sorts of mod cons are pervasive. So to in poker: a world without software in-game helps is not a modern world of poker. If poker expects to hold the fascination of the younger generation it needs to be like an X-box game or whatever the latest techo thing is, not your grandfather's boring poker.

I really have to agree with all of this, I used to be a live cash games player, a little over a year ago I switched to online poker and I really like the current environment, I don't want online poker to be more like live poker, if I wanted that experience I'll go to a casino or try PKR, they have a very "cool" 3D "real poker" experience and they failed!!! online poker is supposed to be different than live poker, faster and with the use of tools you can multi table and play more of the game you love, really to all people who thinks that online poker should be played without a HUD or any tool and be more like live poker, just go and play on PKR, but there is a reason they are not playing there and is because that model is not realistic! online poker is online poker and live poker is live poker! so please don't ruin PokerStars for us, please people get real you can't stop technology! this is the 21th century, the era of Internet and software! you can't stop progress!

Quote

07-01-2015 , 03:32 AM

#1967

TimTamBiscuit

veteran

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,134

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrJuliusDhelas

As regards cash games, you mentioned Z200, and similarly for Z500 the pool of regs is small enough that once analysed their tendencies are well known and the regs can play with or without a HUD with relatively equal facility. Recs are quickly categorised with or without a HUD. In Z500 anyone unknown is a rec.

As for a study of 400K with a HUD vs 400K without a HUD: I don't think it is that easy to conduct a useful study. Too much else changes over 400K hands so the results would tend to conclude the HUDs+ have little to no edge. But the study conclusions would likely be invalidated by other unsystematic variations (that cannot be statistically controlled for) bigger than any change in winrate such as underlying changes in the player pool over ~8 months (to get 400K hands by 1 player x two), underlying changes in how poker is played, underlying change in the particular poker player's style, the variance in the cards dealt, etc.

Quote

07-01-2015 , 03:40 AM

#1968

TimTamBiscuit

veteran

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,134

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJackson

Are you me?

I really enjoy playing with software. Give me a new piece of software and I would happy spend the next 12 hours (or multiple days) exploring it's functions.

Yep, that's me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by heathen1

Some of us enjoy playing poker not playing with software.

TBH, I expected a lot more responses like this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by M_Acevedo

Yay, I was worried in posting my concern I would be swamped by players stating they just wanted to play poker, no software.

I'm glad there is at least two who agree that the software is a major part of the fun.

Quote

07-01-2015 , 03:46 AM

#1969

0xRNG

newbie

Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 44

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly

Do you think there are many 200NLz players winning at 3bb/100?

The average winrate (after Supernova rakeback) of the top 100 grinders of 200NLz about a year ago was 1.7bb/100.

I understand that the biggest winner was a bot.

For PLO, it's even worse.

At PLO200z the average winrate (including Supernova rakeback) of the 100 players with the most volume at PLO200 zoom was just 0.79bb/100

Most of the regs are using HUDs, Notecaddy and other software, and they're still losing! And the reason why? The majority of the biggest winners at PLO100 and PLO200 are/were bots. And Stars is still allowing some of them to play, despite mountains of evidence of cheating.

This is why our whole debate about HUDs or Notecaddy is completely academic. The bots are already here, they are crushing the players that use HUDs and NC, and Stars doesn't appear to give a single ****.

Nr. 1 winner was a bot? i knew it was bad, but didn't expect this

You sure are right, in light of these facts this is purely academic, and poker is already dead. Only ones left is bots and breakeven HUD geeks...it seems...

Quote

07-01-2015 , 03:57 AM

#1970

cneuy3

veteran

Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 2,330

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimTamBiscuit

Recs are quickly categorised with or without a HUD. In Z500 anyone unknown is a rec.

As for a study of 400K with a HUD vs 400K without a HUD: I don't think it is that easy to conduct a useful study.

Come on now. There is no need for such a study. It's fairly obvious to any reasonably competent poker player the advantages that having certain data displayed in front of you in form of a HuD gives you while playing online poker. If anybody with any reasonable skill at poker is arguing against this then you are in complete denial on the subject.

Tim, while I understand you and others enjoy using software and immersing yourself in the data(I do as well) how do your arguments support the use of such software where large portions of the player pool are either unequipped or unaware of such software? Raidalot made a great post awhile back on these types of players and even why it is impractical for these players to purchase such software.

You are also so adamantly against the use of SpinWiz because you argue that it creates an unfair disadvantage in the seating process to players without it but you support the use of HuD overlays on your screen? That seems a bit hypocritical to me.

Quote

07-01-2015 , 04:30 AM

#1971

mme

old hand

Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 1,668

maybe its hypocritical, maybe its savages throwing stones at tanks. asking them selfs what is the meaning of all of this? how could this happen? and most importantly..

is this the real life?

Quote

07-01-2015 , 04:34 AM

#1972

_dave_

_Pooh_Bah_

Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,146

Quote:

Originally Posted by cneuy3

large portions of the player pool are ... unaware of such software

Meh I hate this argument.

I deleted "unequipped" because I consider it irrelevant. For the aware, equipped is a matter of choice.

"Unaware" is not simply true.

Before they are allowed to play a single hand of poker for real money, every player must testify that they have read and understand the PokerStars ToS. That document defines "EXTERNAL PLAYER ASSISTANCE PROGRAMS (EPA)", and what they are/are not allowed to do. If you don't understand what this means, you shouldn't be agreeing to the ToS until you do. If this is the case, they provide further reading. They state "We encourage you to read our Third Party Tools and Services FAQ." where the new user is directly told of the following software by name:

Code:

AdvancedPokerTraining
Auto HandPoster
AutoReg
BlazingStars^
CardHider
ChartManager
Coach Rounder
ColoringTool
DoN Indicator
DonkeyTracker
Draw Poker Source
EasySeatPoker
EasySeatPro
FlopInspector
FlopZilla
FlopZoom^
FPP Pro Plus
FreePokerDB (aka FPDB)
Gam Poker Analyzer
GameTime+
Hand2Note
HighStakesDB
Hiroku-Script
Hold’em Cockpit
Hold’em Manager 2 (including Hold’em Manager Sync)
Hold’em Profiler (including Super HUD)
Holdem Indicator
Holdem Manager (including Table Scanner)
HoldemBoss
HoldemLuck
Holy Grail of Poker
iToldem
Jivaro
KayTeEmPro’s Odds Calculator
KoySit
LobbyHunter
MacroPoker
MagicHoldem
Need4Seat
NoteCaddy
NotesNL
Official Poker Rankings
Omaha Indicator
OmahaChecker
OpenTool
Perfect Reads
PlaceMint
PlayerGPS
PlayerPeek
PLO Ranger
Pokalytics
Poker Academy Prospector
Poker Buddy
Poker Calculator Pro by PokerProLabs†
Poker Copilot^
Poker Evolver
Poker Hole Cards
Poker Indicator
Poker Office
Poker Pro Labs (including Super HUD)
Poker Sharpener
Poker Shortcuts
Poker Sleuth
Poker Stove
Poker Vitals
Poker Wizard
Poker-Spy
Poker4Tuna
PokerAce HUD
PokerCoach†
PokerDebugger
PokerDreamEquity
Pokerface
PokerGrapher
PokerHands
PokerJuice
PokerObserver HUD
PokerPlaner
PokerStat
PokerStrategy Equilab
PokerStrategy SideKick
PokerTableStats
PokerTracker (including TableTracker)
Pot Odd Rechner
ProPokerTool’s Odds Oracle
PS Hand Watcher
PS Mate
PS Never SitOut
PS Play ByVoice
PS Wins Viewer
PSxPoker Tracker and HUD
RangeDefiner
RankExplorer
SeatMojo
Secret Stats: Preflop
Selektor
SessionLord CashOpener
SessionLord SngAutoColoring
SessionLord SnGOpener
SharkScope (including SharkScope HUD)
Sharktoolz Bankroll Manager
Sharktoolz Poker-Reader
SharkyScanner
Sharkystrator
SitnGo Wizard (version 1.0.1.163 and newer) †
Slice
SmartBuddy
SpinWiz
StackAndTile
Star Tracker
StarsHelper
Stud Indicator
Table of Interest
Table Optimizer
Table Shark
Table Tamer
TableDroid
TableJuggler
TableNinja
TableScan Turbo
Telescope by SpadeIt
ThePokerDB
TiltBreaker
TimeMojo
Tournament Indicator
Tournament Shark
Tournament Updater
Tourney Manager
Turbo SeatIN
Unfold Poker
Universal Poker Table Organizer
Usunpokertools
VantageHUD
Winning Poker HUD
Xeester

As of today, 135 applications for them to google if they aren't sure they want to be playing in this environment.

In addition, general guidelines as to what is and is not allowed are provided.

"Lol nobody reads ToS" isn't an acceptable retort. Every player MUST read and accept the ToS. If they do not and click "accept" regardless, they forgo any validity should they claim "I had no idea VantageHUD was allowed omg I've been cheated!"

If "nobody reads the ToS" is a valid argument, the same can be made for allegedly Stinger88 / NoelHayes multiaccounting the highest stakes on a VPN from the USA, and allegedly Russian PLO bots crushing 200 zoom.

Quote

07-01-2015 , 05:31 AM

#1973

cneuy3

veteran

Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 2,330

You're correct dave. EPA clearly lists those programs and it's no fault but their own if players fail to read and/or acknowledge that such software exists on the poker site when deciding to play poker online.

The whole point of this thread is to discuss proposed rule changes to certain EPA programs and 3rd party software currently accepted on PokerStars.

Under the current guidelines I'm not arguing that certain players are being unfairly cheated against by players using the accepted software against them in game but only that many of this aforementioned software can give a substantial edge to a player using it against one without it.

Whether or not you believe it's practical for some of the player types that Raidalot mentioned to purchase such software is your own opinion.

I'd like to think we could work to create an environment where these players would feel welcomed to sit down at an online table without feeling obligated to purchase certain 3rd party software or be put at a disadvantage.

Quote

07-01-2015 , 07:06 AM

#1974

kgbking

grinder

Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 504

EVEN if you dont read the TOS stars will alert you they detected prohibited software being used while stars is running, then email you and ask you to confirm you understand the TOS before playing on stars again. This happened to me while having coffeecalcs running at the same time as stars

Quote

07-01-2015 , 07:52 AM

#1975

TheDefiniteArticle

Indecisive

Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 14,123

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimTamBiscuit

I take pretty extensive notes myself, but I'm not going to pretend it does (or can) go beyond identifying where players are unbalanced and recording that. This is mostly a matter of knowing what a balanced strat looks like and results in notes like 'overbluff turn probe low board bbxbt'. The one thing I know I don't do enough of, but I don't play enough to justify it, is notes about bet sizing, and that's mostly because you need to look through several hands to identify sizing tells.

Quote

Page 79 of 134

First

29 59 69 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 89 99 129

Last

Post Reply Subscribe

...

Page 79 of 134

First

29 59 69 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 89 99 129

Last