I maintain that the best way to do it is to have a list of allowed software and everything else is banned. This could prevent the harm caused by the creation of a monopoly by abusive changes in price causing a licence to be terminated.

Yes I am and my reasoning is against my interest. I think it's totally unfair to have in-game tools. It's non starter in every other popular game: chess, go, Starcraft - you name it. No one is allowed "static HUDs" there or anything of the sort. Still you have tools, teaching material, databases. You just can't use them in-game.
Me disclosing I am a software developer would mean the following things

1)it would be clear I am arguing against my best interest as if HUDs stay allowed I am likely to come up with ultimate data to display on it
2)I would be using argument from authority as to understand technical realities of the problem you need to be a software developer. There is no way around it. People who aren't programmers have no way of understanding what it takes to display VPIP in a HUD and how much processing it takes.

It's slipping because of the rules. It's slipping now and not 5 years ago because right now the software stopped sucking. It really is simple. If someone came up with the software as good we have today 5 years ago this thread would happen 5 years ago.

In case you didn't notice I am arguing for banning in-game tools. I am also a person who is very likely to come up with full solutions to many popular game formats in near future. If you allow me to put those in any form in a DB and sell a HUD based on those I will make a fortune. I am saying right now it would be very bad for the game and thus the rules need changing to prevent me from making said fortune. If they stay as they are or are changed to something like "static HUD" or w/e nonsense trivial to work around it would be fantastic for my bank account.

This is more or less how it works right now. The problem are workarounds and what people can do with allowed software. It's easier to put a rule on something tangible (like reading the game state) instead of digging into internals of every software and trying to solve impossible problems like "could this DB with this HUD be used to display GTO approximations in one way or another" or "can it display stats based on time if the time is possible to write down automatically during play".

It's better yet to just limit available data by not providing instant HHs and allowing screen name changes (or a screen name changes with reveal after some time or w/e).

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That's basically my viewpoint too.
Prior to playing his famous world championship chess match against Boris Spassky, Bobby Fischer acquired a book containing a list of all the moves from 300 of Spassky's games. (Old skool datamining ftw!). Fischer studied the book intensely for several months. He learned every position and every move, and made copious notes, such that you could ask, "Hey Bobby, what did Boris do on move 24 of game 168?" and he could rattle off the whole sequence, and even suggest a better series of moves. Fischer was aware of Spassky's tendencies, and worked out some ways to exploit them.
Fischer was not allowed to put the book on his lap when the game started, because that would be construed as in-game advice. AKA cheating. To win the world championship, Fischer used his brain.

What you're presenting us here with is what's called a false dichotomy - "it's either this or that and it can't be any other way". So it's either "ban all tools to make it fair for everyone" or "let all tools (and developers) be, because you can't enforce some modified rules". Which is absolutely false.

There IS a middle ground, we just have to find it. And some things are easily enforceable, it's just that PS needs the incentive to do it. How difficult would it be for PS to develop it's own HUD, that would access your live db? And that HUD would only have a collection of say 100 stats, out of which everyone could chose whatever they want. You can use all 100? Fine, use them, you're a smart cookie, the point is you're doing all your work at the table using the limited amount of software assistance everyone else has. And these 100 stats could be chosen in such a way that none are extremely situation-specific, like a badge is. In fact it's an absolute must that they're not extremely specific, since there's a limited number of them (just 100, not thousands, like HM/PC/NC allows). And I highly doubt it would take PS that much to decide on a definite set of stats that could be made available to all.

So there, please tell me how you'd "trivially" circumvent this simple and truly static HUD, without running the risk of getting yourself banned for life if you're caught using some other HUD displaying software.

So clinging on the "impossibility" of enforceability as an argument against some sort of nerfing of current ability of live assistance software is a bit pathetic, especially coming from someone with the "argument of authority". You just have to think outside the box a bit and have the incentive to make the necessary steps.

I have no idea what poker sites can do about the next generation of "off-table" automation tools giving near-instant "GTO" advice based on voice-recognition.

Version 17.5 of Piosolver might look like this... (except it will actually run on a phone instead of an emo-bot).


I have no problem with people trying to solve poker for intellectual reasons. I just can't see how the game will continue to be played for money online once that happens.

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I don't think it's false dichotomy but real choice. I also think you need be a programmer or have some computer science background to see why. If you don't have it you won't understand why you can use a DB and HUD to imitate all the tools you want to ban.

Everything goes outside the table, nothing allowed during play? That's what other games did. This and some measures to minimize impact of datamining.

And make it impossible to import data to said db which would in some clever ways be used to display charts, population tendencies or w/e else? Basically impossible and if attempted would cost thousands of men hours per month to monitor.

You could do that but why not use the hands from PS DB there? Why connect to local one where you can import w/e?
You could build such tool into a client and then ban everything else in-game. That's very similar to what I am advocating for.
As I see no advantage in using local DB over a central one for the purpose you can just as well accept my preferred solution and then lobby for built-in HUD.
I think it's better without it but w/e, that would be fair/clear as well.


The point of your soultion is to kill all innovation/custom in-game tools. The same point I am making. I don't disagree with anything because your proposed solution is almost the same as mine. You just added something build into a client to it but it would still mean no game state reading and in-game advice from local tools.

Listen, I am a competent person arguing for what I believe is good for the game long term. You will be well served trying to understand where I am coming from. Especially that your proposed solution here is almost exactly in line with my proposed rule.

So, let's try this:
"No in-game tools reading game state allowed in any form". Everything that's allowed is a poker client with its interface.

I even have a good guess why you proposed something as limited: you started to realize that going even a step further would allow me to easily work around "static" constraints.

It's better to have someone with public project and open views about what is possible than secret team laughing their way to the bank.
HU Holdem will be solved, multiway one (6max cash, tournaments etc.) won't. Solving isn't a threat to those games but in-game advice and datamining are.

FWIW, I'm a computer science graduate and I have worked a bit in the field, including some db related work. While I most definitely don't have the amount of expertise you have, I'm not a complete rookie.

The reason I mentioned such a solution (PS proprietary HUD) is that I think it's simpler to enforce, with the current state of things. A few pages back I made a suggestion about differentiating stats in HM/PT, where only a certain set could be added into a live HUD, with the rest being available only while doing HM related work, off the table. I'm sure that could be done too, it's just a matter of really wanting to make that step.

And as for a central PS db, I think that implies a monumental effort on PS' part. You'd have to constantly update, append, aggregate etc scaled-back dbs for potentially tens of thousands of players, since every player would only get statistics on all other players at the table based only on hands he played with them. Instead of doing that off a central db you could distribute the effort and allow local dbs (like it is now) and make sure the db you're using isn't datamined, which I'm sure it's doable (and easier).

Yes, curiously enough, we kinda agree on what is better for the games long term. It's just we have different views on what enforceability means. You see it in absolute terms, while I'm a bit more relaxed about it. I am convinced that any set of rules and restrictions can be circumvented, so "true" enforceability doesn't really exist. But that doesn't mean we should linger in this current state, just because there will be those few who always try to angle shoot. I don't think the solution to mugs carrying knives is handing knives on the street for everyone, on the basis of the difficulty to stop those few to carry knives on them. That's not a solution, that's just giving up. I'm not saying any kind of solution is easy, but giving up is never better.

Yes. While I am not absolutist I would like to have a line in a place which maximizes enforceability. There will always be ways around but it would be good if those ways are at least not wide open.

That might be the case. It's hard to say. Intuitively it's not that much data for company with that many resources but yeah it can be an implementation challenge requiring a lot of work for little gain (from their side).

Well... it's the main point I disagree with. If you have a DB which can import data (including for example data from other sites). It's too big of a challenge to try to monitor if that data is "pure". Tehn you have big complicated process of turning that data into stats and you would need to monitor that as well. It just feels completely impractical to me. Even honest actors would struggle determining what does and what doesn't cross the line.

I agree. I just feels most proposed solutions which strive to be in the middle minimizes it to impractical levels.

I agree again. I just feel "current state" isn't the end of the world. I don't like it much but it has advantages (like clarity and enforceability being better than in for example what Richas proposed).

So you and people proposing "in the middle" solution see a lot of gain from it comparing to current state. I see little gain and costs in lowered clarity and enforceability. I think trying to draw the line there is fighting against math (and work around the facts that you can imitate more advanced functionality using less advanced one). It seems you think otherwise and are willing to take a shot. Good thing it became clear why we disagree. Peace!

Make HM/PT do an aggregate and count hands per site per stake. Send this data to poker room (PS) and make sure it's not fake data. Have PS compare the data with the hands you have played at that particular stake during the last year, for example. Account for some % of acceptable difference in reporting (say 10% or w/e). And then drop the hammer. You played 100k hands at 100NL the past year, yet you have 3M hands of 100NL in your db? Then gtfo, take one month off and have a non-datamined db when we allow you to play again. And if you fk it again, it's bye bye for good.

I'm not saying this IS the solution, just that solutions can be found. And this one really doesn't seem that complicated. The point is not to make sure every single hand you have in your db is a hand you played, as that would indeed be impractical. Instead, make sure that you detect the obvious and inherent imbalance a datamined db has vs a legit db.

Well put, unfortunately, a lot of players, including myself, turned a blind eye to it 5 years ago. I think the fact that the games were so good back then also made it easier for a lot of players to turn a blind eye to it. That's not an excuse and this was clearly a problem then and has developed into a far worse one now. Time to limit it and/or put a stop to it. I agree with a lot of the points outlined in your posts and hopefully PokerStars can see the light in this situation and make reasonable changes towards a solution.

That's not what he's referring to though as he mentions the current hand.

I worded it very bad. More like hand history based on the actions given. So based on the actions like 3 Barrel OOP or IP a handrange is given, like strong or weak and then the next step is hand histories of villain hands. As explained here a bit https://youtu.be/gDc3Fz3-TNU?t=3m21s .

I also think integrated HUD and locked down PS client is the only way to give poker some more time. You could make it so you can unlock HUD features with RB points or "in app purchases"...
Ideally DB would not be on untrusted client platform but don't know how that would scale. And then you should have little icons on players avatar indicating wich software aids he is using....and have old school tables.
Of course you get your complete HH with some delay for later review with third party tools. But with software like NC, timing mojo and the likes being allowed this current playing environment is zero fun for recs how mostly don't even know about these tools and loose their money on the tables faster than at the slots....

stars to provide 100 stats of their choice to the players and forbidding the rest? get a grip and do your work this is not how the world works

so how does the world work? care to enlighten us?

those who put in the work get the prize, nobody will help you to make a hud or to restrict other people's possibilities to develop their technology

selling stars the idea to integrate a HUD or stars selling this to the players is investing in snake oil stocks. no problem solved ..way more problems added. turning stars client into a bot ..get the latest java update from here ..how old are you ..sorry my legs are not attached yet ..what color is white ..haha that sure was funny.

oops, alice bot hickups.

I'm not a big fan of an integrated HUD.

I prefer a bit of consumer choice but there are many other problems. Making the client big and clunky. Burdening Stars with the development and support which is not core to their role just adds cost which in the end comes from rake. There is more.

The main thing for me though is managing a transition to a more controlled environment. By having approved HUDs from suppliers Stars cooperates with the suppliers are still left with a legitimate market. If Stars uses their monopoly power to wipe them out, or rather force them to operate covertly then their only option is to supply that black market.With co-operation they get a bigger market, Stars promotion/support and they get to be white hats not black.

What we want is good HUDs that work well but that are not too powerful and do not facillitate cheat data. The easiest way to get that is cooperation not Stars taking the HUD/Tracker supplier(s) on in a way that destroys their business model.

PokerStars should scrap the datamining rules and make clear to players the truth that they are playing in a public place and their actions can be observed and recorded by anyone who wishes to do so.

Either that or stop spewing observed HH to anyone with an Internet (preferable option, but it's been a decade).

No one "makes" is own hud. Of course a PS integrated HUD could be configureable just as HEM hud is.
Tell a rec he needs to buy this and that software for 200-300$, maybe add a shark scope monthly subscription and the likes....and has to learn to use this software - he will never deposit again.
They want just deposit 50$, 100$ and play against humans, not against (shared) NC and HH databases, seat scripting timemojo users.
To add, current open design of PS client makes botting and cheating of all kinds trivial. If compared to any other multiplayer online games e.g. starcraft it is like ps is providing a cheat framework.

how so?
I can guarantee you turning a locked down ps client into a bot will be way way harder than botting in current setup.
If well done it will be a pain in the ass, and require some technical knowledge and resources. Cheating will be not as trivial as it is now, and with few cheaters around it will be easier to spot those left.

I agree. You can't hope to police what people are doing when not playing. They will buy databases and analyze them. Trying to prevent it is a lunacy.
Allow it or prevent it just don't combine a ban with availability because there isn't even a glimmer of hope of enforcing it.

there is no such ting as locked-down-on-a-computer. the nsa neither confirms nor denies this.

likely the only option to give up on the false promise of privacy as first step. but then again, i'd be surprised if there was solid ground left to take a second step.

I don't think it is in Pokerstars best interests to assume that online poker should be some kind of facsimile of real world poker.

For me enjoying playing the game of poker online is much different to the game of poker live: I greatly enjoy using the various tools to study the game away from the tables and refining my HUD to best suit my latest ideas on the table.

I don't like live poker. I find it way too slow and boring. No offense intended, but there are also a lot of unsavoury characters at the table I'd rather not meet IRL. Online I don't have to meet anyone.

I work very hard away from the table. I am confident in a world of banned software in-game my off-table work would see me more profitable in this return to a former era in-game.

However, I'd have less fun because I can't play with my favourite tools and keep refining them along with my own understanding of the game.

Don't ignore that many players consider part of their poker fun to be having fun with the various tools while playing poker. Maybe some others hate using these tools. I don't know. I can't speak for them.

But smart phones and X-Boxes and all sorts of mod cons are pervasive. So to in poker: a world without software in-game helps is not a modern world of poker. If poker expects to hold the fascination of the younger generation it needs to be like an X-box game or whatever the latest techo thing is, not your grandfather's boring poker.