Good poast and pretty much 100% my take on it.

Notecaddy is essentially teh direct link between a tracker and automated decision sw. It shouldve never been allowed in teh first place.

That being said i dont blame people that use and sell packs for defending it

Any line drawn has to be clear and logically defensible. The trouble is that the underlying HUD tools HM2 and PT4 already provide much more than basic HUDs, for example, customised stats that are effectively like NC.

And datamining gives unfair players a large enough sample so now what?

Why is it too much?

In practice it is still very much a judgement call because opponents don't play like bots never varying their play.

IMO if you treat a badge robotically you will lose money. Most opponents adapt to robotically being raised and cbet constantly. Especially regs and you already said recs don't count as too small sample.

Also, regs behind you will counter exploit you figuring you are exploiting the same badge they are seeing so you must judge other opponents yet to act.

IMO if you treat a badge as YES/NO you will lose money. Maximising profit with a badge takes significant judgement.

What is your axe to grind sir as your simplistic yes/no interpretation of the badge contradicts your skills as a winning player and a coach? In other words you know applying a badge is not that simple so why are you pretending otherwise?

Could be because he knows and has the guts to tell it, from the perspective of someone really using them badges, that's it's not really that complicated to learn to use one?

I don't get it, really.. NC advocates constantly crying foul when people say these live leak finders give too much of an advantage, saying this is not really the case. Well if this is not really the case, you're not gonna lose that much if these tools are banned while playing, are you?

And it's getting really pathetic hearing people saying that learning how to use these sort of supertools is "so hard" and requires a lot of work and that people that want them banned are just "lazy". The amount of work one would have to put in to analyze his and his opponents' game using just PT/HM is way bigger than doing similar type of work using NT with its supertools (online and offline), yet all of us lazy bastards refuse to take the easy way of learning the ins and outs of these new supertools, "because it's go freaking hard to use them". No comment..

And as for your "YES/NO" comment about badges - please see THIS. It's Alan Jackson (whom I respect tremendously, btw, and he's my favorite vid creator of them all). He explains it very clearly there, in a way that covers your "YES/NO" comment.

I read once in an article that you are founder and manager of an hedge fund. Didn't research any further so the following might not be matching for you and also is not ment offensive against you personally (i highly respect you as an intelligent person). Hedge funds are part of the system which is the cause of the problems we encounter currently in our western world. We see how the gap between rich and poor gets bigger and bigger and more unsuperable. We see how people have to work more and more efficient without a real chance to get anywhere in a lot of jobs. "Money has to work" is one of the biggest misconceptions of our modern world. Money can't work, no sane person would try to give a bill a shovel. People work and those working people need to support the parasitic system. Is this fair? Is this any good for the future health of our society? No, it's not. So why doesn't your company stop to participate in this and engages in something fair and pareto-efficient? The answer is quite easy: because you are sane. You know that your company might not survive longer than a few months and that maybe you wouldn't have even made a change/impact to the current system.

Now to return to the current discussion: the call for banning all 3rd party software is unrealistic. Online poker has developed with HUDs and tools since quite some time now and they are a substantial part of it. To demand from Stars to ban HUDs is compareable to asking your company to not be part of the exploitation-system anymore. A lot of people would consider both fairer and and more healthy for the future, but both lack feasibility due to economical risks in the short and medium run.

fr-nit, please stick to one sentence posts. they offer the same low amount of insight + are easier to scroll by. ty

Will do my best in the next post

Edit: you might also wanna try out the ignore-function on 2+2

If you listen to your link, Alan says something like, "and fire lots of flops." He doesn't say fire all flops.

Judgement. The only time badges are black and white yes/Nos are on recs and you don't need them on recs.

He also simplifies by omitting what you must do in practice which is consider counter-exploitation by regs yet to act who know what we are trying to exploit.

thanks for the pointer but no. i have a stat postfrequency / postlength. a glimpse on your your avatar while scrolling by is the quickest way to update it.

visit us at thread-poker.org

NC badges are deliberately configurable, too. Part of the judgement call is the current accepted understanding of what might be considered theoretically correct now but in hindsight was simply common but flawed practice.

Examples are steal percentage and 3B percentage.

Some years ago a high steal percentage might have been more than 35% then steal changed to where many players were stealing 100% because blinds were folding too much. The pendulum is currently swinging back as blind play improves. This appropriate number depends on population pools which vary by stake level and site. Some pools have more aggressive blind play. Other pools still fold too much. You adjust configurable parameters accordingly but also create pool-specific badges that may be useless in a different pool.

There are sites where 3 barrelling is very common. Other sites where flop folding is too high. There is way more variability than any current set of NC badges caters for.

3B/4B % and defense there of in cash games has also evolved significantly but still varies a lot from player pool to player pool across sites and stakes. A high 3B% used to be 8%+ but that would usually be seen as exploitably too low now...

Admission to the cartel is based upon improperly sharing data. To join the applicant must submit their record vs the cartel, they must demonstrate over a large sample what their ROI is - if good they get in if not not good enough, not good.

You can't fake your way in, your graphs and data are checked by the cartel against their collated data. This produces a Yes/No decision based upon complete data for the player, shared accross the cartel to get that Yes/No decision.

The entire structure of the cartel, the membership of it is built upon illegally shared/mined data. Pass the test by sharing data with the cartel and you get to avoid playing the elite...keep your data to yourself and nope, you will get sat by the elite - using a software tool to facillitate that table selection decision made via shared data.

Try to cheat the system, have a record that does not match the dataminers record and/or the data shared by other cartel members and there are consequences - "being sat/declined by "everyone" for life. The thread linked to goes in to considerable detail on how to audit a player's claims without access to the full HH database of that player, it relies on the cartel sharing their data vs the applicant with other cartel members and using data mined info.

Oh yeah just for fun they propose that whilst the applicant creates the report the cartel members get to watch them doing it via Teamviewer so gettiing it working and sharing your sceen with the cartel is the security they want - no chance of creating a collusion/ghosting ring there eh? Meanwhile if Stars said to them we have all you play data but we are a bit concerned about a couple of things, please can we have TeamViewer up and running on your play....and the cartel would be outraged at the Spyware proposal.

Cartels are all about table selection, that selection is based upon sharing data improperly and verifying it against datamined info....oh yes and the cartel will share "population" figures that are no just datamined/shared improperly but tailored to apply to non cartel members as the targetted population, a set of shared data only the cartel can generate.

If anyone does not think that this form of table selection uses shared/datamined data improperly, not just data from the players own play history, then god help us - the mutual decision not to seat each other is based upon sharing player data to prove that they are worthy enough to join thr Frat club, checked by datamining and once in - you get extra data on your opponent population..for a fee.

You do get that this is an explanation that by combining badges with relevant total population stats, your own vs Hero stats with a randomising element to give you the ideal 70% or whatever for that action you get not just incremental gains in advantage don't you?

It is an advert for the power of using a suite of HEM, NoteCaddy, illegal data, a randomiser and dynamic badges linking the lot..oh yeah and changing the sample size criteria by player categorisation from their datamined history let's you further tailor it to be flexible vs different opponents.....all existing software approaches ......essentially this is an explanation of a highly efficient CyBot. You get that right?

There is nothing new or innovative s/w wise to deliver this game killer, it is just buying the bits and integrating them in the SuperHUD.

Yeah, so then I'll buy that new add-on pack that just came out, the one that deals with "new pool tendencies and exploits and all". I understand that just saying a badge is a YES/NO trigger that's universally applicable is an exaggeration, as there still is some judgement call to be made (in some, maybe most cases). What you don't admit is that these judgement calls get less and less "judgement calls" as these tools expose more and more of pool/players specific leaks.

It's like you're trying to get out of a maze - if you have one "traffic sign" every 10 corners let's say, you will eventually get out of the maze, by some trial and error. If instead you put "traffic signs" every 3 corners, your "judgement calls" are less and less important, as the right path is being shown to you with more and more precision.

I don't doubt that just using badges, scatter/spike graphs, heatmaps etc is NOT gonna make you a winning player. What I'm saying is that these sort of tools, if used while playing, point you in the right direction more often than not, with too much precision. And the counter argument of me trying to outsmart the ones that use these tools does not logically stand, unless you are willing to apply it to all situations, vs bots for example. They too don't have an absolutely perfect game plan (as there isn't one, really, for 6max), that's why they don't play at 5/10 and higher. So what's stopping you from exploiting their "almost definite answers" game plan instead of whining that bots are too good? I'm sure no one would complain about 1000 bots at their stake if all bots were actually losers. So no, the argument of "you could exploit the ones that try to exploit you with these tools" does not stand (although theoretically you are right).

I think what u wrote is not true if i play against 10 players i can show them my graph wich i suppose its not illegal has it does not contain any hands but only results and they can confirm in theyr graphs if its true or not , no need to exchange hand histories


This thread is full of innacuracies


BTW i think cartels and scripts are way more harmfull for poker than the software mentioned seems pokerstars has theyr priorities wrongly inverted

The argument for the use of hud software that anyone can use a hud is ridiculous when Pokersttars itself has commercials promoting play on phones and ipads and non hud compliant devices. Not even trying to be funny because it's reality, but the next Nadal commercial should be a spilt screen of Nadal one tabling on ipad with Elky and 4 other team pros sniping him using huds. That is honesty to customers

Sharing a graph amngst a few mates or discussion group, or even posted here is not crossing a line. Doing so in order to be admitted to a conspiracy regarding table selection is - especially when it is verified by a full audit, using other players data, illegally data mined information and a security check via TeamViewer to watch the graph being created in real time, that explains the complexity of the conspiracy.

Of course it takes some skill but in some positions not so much.
If you are the BB you're the last to act so no worries about players behind you.
Opponents counter-exploiting you if you try to exploit them? The answer to that is dynamic vs hero stats so you're still getting a YES/NO thing in the end.
I am simplifying this a little bit obv but the difference is small like between a 5bb and 7bb winner.

It used to take some skill before in using NC but now a pack will just appear and give you everything in a simple to use manner.

??
seems like your 7bb winrate was between the times PTR was inactive or are you admiting to forgery?

Where do you draw the line? If I post a hand in a study group and someone says 'oh, call, he's a ******', this is obviously fine, right? What if I post a hand and say 'oh, call, he overbluffs rivers'? What about 'oh, call, his river bet when checked to after calling two barrels is 72%'? What about a screenshot of their HUD stats on a particular player?

Apart from the ridiculous off-topic rant (I live in a country with no real financial sector beyond retail banking and therefore no venture capitalists - all major enterprises are therefore owned by foreigners or rich families - young people with ideas leave and go to be "exploited" in the west), Pokerstars improving it's ecology would be equivalent to a agro-business stopping using chemicals it's always used, because they have discovered they are killing the crops.

You like to talk about things you don't understand or don't have a clue about, right? Does it feel good, make you feel special? Dreaming of "illegally data mined information" was particularly good one. If I share my win/loss vs someone and he checks in his db and confirms it's like that, there is so much "illegally data mined information" indeed. But please, by all means keep going.

I remember previously someone in the same thread telling you that you don't have a clue what you are talking about (it was entirely another subject). Wonder why that keeps happening with you. Curious do you have any topics at all you are not competent about? Or you just know it all....

There is no conspiracy at all. You can choose to show your results or not and in so join or not join. Pokerstars has examined this process and declared it fully legal so to go offtopic and adress this is not constructive in any way whatsoever. It seems like this is not the first time you try to prove something that is completely false as well.

In every way possible this ''conspiracy'' you claim is put in place to NOT have a conspiracy or gangup where a group of friends can ruin one guy for an irrational reason.

Blame pokerstars for high rake so regvsreg is quite hard/virtually impossible to maintain if anything.

Stars should work on figuring out how to enforce the restrictions that they already have in place before coming up with new things that they have an even worse chance of enforcing.

All the stables boys coming in and justifying that sort of behavior with all kind of convoluted reasoning is really funny. And just that - funny

My 7 bb winrate is in the last ~2 years.
I specify this in my coaching thread which is pretty old, so if there was any forgery involved someone would've accused me by now considering I gave out my sn and there is a russian PTR out there :-)

PTR is down since 3-4 years ago and it was during the time we were using HM1 and I was griding for sne while being a mediocre player at fullring.

+1


It would be fun if PS made 2 player pools.
One clean, and one with all s/w freaks.
It is nice to watch program vs program game.
It will be like 20 hands/hour.