I agree with pretty much your whole post as well as your general approach.

However, your argument in favour of classic HUDs is a reason why a basic "display stats" feature should be incorporated in the client - I believe there is a software improvement thread where you can post such requests (the second reason is to help undercut the market for an illegal HUD). It's not a reason why 3rd party software should be allowed to create informational asymmetry.

There is a big difference in terms of how those two things look to a recreational player - and they will see HUDs on Twitch.

Question for Stars..

Would you be willing to ban HUD's, and all 3rd party software, if that was what a large % of the player base wanted?

I have my doubts.

Yeah! ****ing Spotify is giving people an unfair advantage.

Or more seriously, what about Excel? Many of the forbidden processes can be done (or at least presented) in Excel (and therefore I suspect things like Outlook's preview window). Then you have the 2nd computer issue. Whenever there's money involved, people get very inventive.

I suspect the only fair set of rules is actually no prohibitions on player aids... including full bots. Otherwise like fiddy cent said "it ain't considered a crime unless they catch you". The genie of third party tools is out of the bottle and you're not putting it back in a hurry.

This would never happen, if all software would ban the traffic would gone about
1/3 because it would to be hard for Multitable for the most people without any kind of stats how the opponents play.

And stars would gain less money, because less table open, less hands were played, means less Rake.

I've used hem2 for four years now, but in light of these new plo bots, (even though I play plo mtts) I'm also in the corner of just banning all 3rd party software before things get worse.

So by banning the very tool which helped to discover the bot-ring you expect to improve things? Sounds like a very good idea

hahahahahaha

I'd have nothing against a proprietary PS HUD, but I highly doubt something like that will be available any time soon, as it's quite a big feature to be added, with lots of ramifications in different directions. But if PS can incorporate a HUD with say 100 stats out of which everyone can choose however many they want, I have no problem with that.

Now there's a reason I said "100 stats" and not a "basic HUD", like you suggested. Asymmetry is basically the reason someone is good in whatever field, while others are bad. They work more, they study more, they dedicate themselves more, they care more etc, it's all about asymmetry. So how is asymmetry unfair? It's not, by itself. And when it comes to information, since we're talking about the ultimate game of incomplete information, the point is to make the information available in a fair manner to us all, not to artificially restrict it. That would be like your teacher only allowing you to study just the school book for your exam and not any other material you could find, just so you'd be "level" with everyone else who only cares about passing the examn, not excelling.

And before NC advocates start pounding on me - yes, I realize this exact argument could be applied for the badges and all that dazzle ("why restrict badges, if they are available to all etc"). But I already explained myself, why I think having definite information like the badges and graphs provide is crossing that line beyond which you pretty much know you have to call, fold etc (not applicable in all possible spots just yet, but the power of such things is absolutely immense, virtually unlimited).

A typical static HUD, the way I understand HUDs now, has a cap of info that can contain. There's a limit beyond which the law of diminishing returns fights back and any more info you would add would not gain you s.hit, it might even hurt you. Imagine a grinder's 30-40 stats hud, plenty of info there, right? Now add 20 more stats - more info, potentially more relevant info (albeit in less frequent spots), but now your HUD is harder to read. But if train yourself, let's say you can still do it. And remember, you're still playing poker, and doing abductive reasoning (yeah, educated guesses), if anything it's even harder to do now, because you're trying to piece together more bits of information (this stat, combined with that and the other, and together with this other one means I could call etc).. What's next? Add 20 more stats? And then 20 more? No, because there is an intrinsic level that stops us ALL having insanely big and detailed HUDs and adding more stats is actually starting to hurt us instead of helping.

Leaks, graphs and alike tackled this very problem (of having more and more info) and, in the process, took a big dump on the essence of poker. Because now, instead of you finding villain's leaks, they are PRE-SEN-TED to you, as definite, instant and actionable information. While keeping your HUD at a very reasonable size, so you'd not lose yourself in it. I hope none of you guys take this the wrong way, because I'm not saying it to bash anyone, just to illustrate a point - this is poker for invalids. You can't figure out how to beat your 23/19/8 apparently-unexploitable standard villain? Here, have 10 badges on the spot, now press them buttons!

I think the following themes are consistently appearing throughout this thread:

• The bot/”in hand advice” threat: the major concern of the community is the Bot threat and we are all concerned that Pokerstars is not performing well in this area as 2+2ers seem to be the primary source of bot detection

• General software sophistication: the initial concern of skiers’ software has now been matched by concern of the tools players use to exploit each other - in particular Huds and data mining (either illegally purchased or combined as part of a large population tendency database as per the smartspins example).


• Enforcement Issues: related to the sophistication point above, any attempt to limit static tables and voice recognition will be easily overcome by cheaters through the purchase of a 2nd computer (to the post above, it’s just as easy to play on 2 computers as it is on 2 monitors) or through printed charts. Also, any attempts to restrict Huds interpretation of hands already played will unfairly disadvantage the commercial hud operators and effectively create a black market in Huds.

• Turn off all data in game or allow anonymous tables/name changes: Either of these options will level the playing field between rec and regs as it ensures recreational players aren’t max exploited the instant they sit down at the table and it eliminates the player based data mining issue. However, I don’t see Pokerstars making transformational changes to their business so may not be viable to implement – at least in the medium term.

So what should Pokerstars do?
• Work out how they can better track bots and/or in hand advice

• Allow preflop static tables, sophisticated HUDs and post hand advice to continue. This will allow the battle between GTO players and max exploit players to continue and let them/us sort this out. Understand that these models are getting very sophisticated and are potentially utilising data that is “mined” but also appreciate that you cannot get good through software and data alone. Players need to study incredibly hard to be able to get these tools to work so the smartest and hardest working will be the most successful.

• Don't get pressured into rushing any rule changes over the short term and if any rules are introduced, ensure they are enforceable and consistent across all tools. On that note, for the people saying “enforceability of new rules doesn’t matter” are basically facilitating the transfer of funds from a whole bunch of fair people to a whole bunch of unsophisticated cheats (for the reasons outlined above).

What I meant is that with "static" HUD you can always encode information about push-fold charts. Even if it's not a chart poppinp-up in the simplest form you can always use color-coding or your own stats display to have that information. It's just a question on how clever you are about it but you can always simulate it and make it indistinguishable from just smart static HUD.

No, your argument is based on what you personally feel about the game and what you are used to. You claiming that poker without HUDs is almost pure guesswork means your perspective on the game is very narrow.
You can't make a reasonable judgment about those things if you think poker without HUDs is almost a pure guesswork.

It goes back to the main point that "static" and "dynamic" HUDs are not distinguishable if programmed cleverly enough. How are you going to distinguish badges from clever color coding? They are the same thing, just requiring different processing power (but it doesn't matter as you do it away from the table) and displayed differently (but you can use one to encode information from another).
It's just completely unrealistic to draw the line between HM2 HUD and NoteCaddy as there are always be ways to conform to rules and have NC functionality still - even if not in as convenient form.

I mean the "software is allowed as long as it sucks hard enough" principle can't be a base for reasonable long term rules.

You're hopeless, really. If you make a habit of reading only half of a sentence, get it out of context and then start bashing, there really is no point in me arguing. So I'm done with that, peace!

Now I'm not really sure if you're a NC shill that ended up here following that email they sent or you sincerely lack the ability to comprehend, but I'll make one last (and probably futile) effort.

• Simple badges - Say a badge that only takes into consideration a single stat, like exploitable to turn cbets. Yes, you could color code the exact same stat to turn red when that threshold is hit and it would turn red just in the way the badge would activate itself or not, depending on villain. Logically, they're the same. Structurally, they're not, since that stat will ALWAYS be there in your hud, contributing to the clutter (be it green, red, brown w/e), while the badge will come and go. And if you think this is a minor difference, try envisioning a complex 40-50 stats HUD, each of which has some color coding. But, for argument's sake, let's say this is a minor difference to you (although it is one thing to try to spot your villain's leaks while eating up 50 colored numbers and it's a totally different one having the leaks pop up and showing you the way). But w/e, let's say they're completely the same. Now how about:
• Complex badges - these comprise the VAST majority of them, as you can custom build them to insanity. They combine multiple different stats, board texture, action taken, position and whoever the fk knows what. And there, you know in an instant you can stab on the BTN the rivered flush vs your UTG villain after he cbet flop and checked turn, because a shiny lilttle square is telling you he folds at an exploitative frequency when opening in UTG, cbeting flop and then checking all the way, if the river completes a flop flush draw. How in the name of all the fks in the world is that similar to a HUD stat? Please, enlighten me. Yes, you maybe could reach the same conclusion by analyzing 3-4-5 stats of his and so on. Well, DO THAT, ok? Play some freaking poker, don't sh.it your pants with excitement because "look, another situation covered by my smart badges came up, yay!"

So let's not outlaw stealing cars off the street, since there will always be the ones that find ways to do it anyway, "even if not in as convenient form". Not comparing badges to stealing cars (hmmm), just pointing out your (lack of) logic.
As for your last remark... no, my dear fellow poker player, let us all get all the help at the table we could ever invent and turn ourselves into freaking GTO approxa-cybots and then wonder 5 years down the road what the fk happened to our beloved online poker and why did it turn into a freak show in a ghost town.

The post I wish I could have done but being a rec was too pig ignorant to get beyond "what the badges offer is player specific in game advice and so well over the CyBot line".

For the record I am advocating banning all in-game tools so yeah, probably not NC shill.

Yeah, this is just one database search and division away from what you describe as OK stat.
The problem is you need to be a technical person to understand it. While it may look to you that VPIP is some easy "simple stat" and the one you described are somehow super advanced or "dynamic" there is very little difference in how they are actually calculated and it will always be possible to display them as numbers and/or color coding in your "static" HUD.

That's not an argument I am making. I am making an argument that distinction proposed by you is similar to outlawing stealing only red cars and only in some shades of red as well.
You are trying to distinguish between things which are basically the same from implementation point of view. It will be nightmare even for honest people to know which exact stats are approved or not or if you can use one more call to SELECT in your DB to create it.

It's just a bigger static stat. You can have 50 popups which you invoke with a click on a mouse nicely sorted by type of board/situation. It will take a while to get used to but it won't be a big problem, just one more click instead it being automatic.

To handle such a complex stat like this as number instead badge you would not need to see all the other stats to conclude a player folds high on the river after c-betting the flop and checking the turn when opening UTG. You would only need to check one stat number which is "check-fold river after opened UTG+C.bet flop+check turn OOP". It doesnt tell you how much player opens UTG, how much player C-bets the flop or check-folds/calls/raises the turn. It tells you how much that players has folded on the river after that sequence.

For clarity, the proposal is that you can have any stat you like - it's just that in the HUD (which has Stars access to review data & presentation of stats) you get the same stats for all players, not cherry picked exloits specific to that player.

Any stat you like, but for all your opponents not the one(s) where it is relevant for that specific player.

I'm not a fantastic tech guy - would it be possible to have certain interoperability information which would only be provided upon approval by Stars, and without which software wouldn't work?

But that's what current "static HUDs" are. You get player specific stats. The cherry-picking you describe is realtively minor detail. You could just display all of it all the time (or hide in easily accessible pop-ups) and color code the interesting (read: leaks) ones.
It will be the same for all the players, the color coding will be the same for all the players. Yet, it will be functionally the same as "advanced badges" described above.

But there is color-coding which have the same functionality. You can also change the fonts (making them small/unreadable for chosen parts of distribution).
Are you going to require that every stat is displayed in the same font, color and layout?

If you do then I have another work around: I will multiply my stats by 0 for values I consider normal. It will then display 0s everywhere but in places which are leaks.
This is just one well defined mathematical operation (multiplication by 0 for say 0-0.2 and 0.8-1.0) are you going to ban that operation while there are thousands, maybe millions way more complicated operations when deriving simple VPIP stat?

Do you see any sensible way to make VPIP legal but: {0 if 0-0.2 or 0.8-1.0, VPIP otherwise} not? I can assure you both use the same databaes searches and math operations.

Encoding push-fold chart using stats and color coding (or even stats alone) is trivial exercise as well. I can for example display 169 numbers which are always the same for every player and color code them (different coloring for every stat of course). Are you going to ban me displaying 169 zeros in different colors but allow "bet when missed cbet IP in single raised pot" ones which are completely standard in HUDs of today?

This tailoring to specific opponents is the exact reason HUDs exist in the first place. Their role is to bring attention to leaks. The only difference between NC and your default HM HUD is that one of them suck less at its job. There isn't any principal difference between them you can based rules on.

This is not a political problem. It's a technical problem. You are advocating for a distinction which is nonsense from math/programming point of view. You won't be able to write the rules to be at least somewhat consistent and achieve what you want unless you go into every single stat and say if it's ok but there are millions of them possible and in use already.

@devera: While I agree with most of your posts, I still disagree with your point about HUDs, especially the way you frame your argument. To me it seems that the only reason you want to keep HUDs is that without them you won't be able to play 12+ tables at a time.

I think that is a horrible argument for wanting to keep HUDs. Play less tables if you struggle to play so many. Mass tabling HUD using grinders are not enjoyable for the recreational player. We don't want to have to wait for your timebank so you can look at some stats before folding your trash hands preflop, every, single, time. These are the players that slow the game down and are no fun to play with.

Your first post talked about the original spirit of poker. Since when does that include playing so many tables that you can't follow the action without the aide of a computer doing it for you?

Personally I'd be able to play more tables if HUDs were banned since my default strategy is relatively strong and there would be less cause for deviation.

I think this is a very good point as long as it can be enforceable enough to dissuade to the majority of people from attempting to violate the terms and conditions and the punishments are harsh enough. An somewhat similar example might be the way the VPNers from inside the US were handled post black Friday. Of course there is probably still a small percentage of players breaking that term and condition but PokerStars has successfully caught, banned, and confiscated the bankrolls of many of the violators. That has an effect on the majority attempting to break that particular rule.

Your whole post was great but I thought I'd point out these parts. Mainly the 2nd part. Turning off all in game data or limiting it per session and making anonymous tables is a solution to most of the mess. Sure a program like Skiers will still work on a 2nd computer but this will severely limit the effect of 3rd party software, data mining, etc.

Make tables anonymous by session, preferably with some kind of more interesting "choose your own avatar, character, ID for the day" If they want to incorporate a HuD within the software they can do that but make it available to all your players. As I said, the data in such a HuD would only be sessioned based so the effects of a player violating the terms and conditions and running an outside 3rd party more advanced HuD would be minimal because of the limited data supplied only from the current session.

I think this is by far the best way to go about this problem. Still allow outside 3rd party software such as PT4, HM2, etc for post game analysis. The non HuD portions of those programs.

Anyway, I typed this quickly and most of you seem to ignore my posts anyway and proceed to posts books of the same regurgitated nonsense, mostly only thinking of your own bottoms lines.

Also great posts, punter. I also agree with a lot of what you have to say in your posts as well.

Currently I use Note Caddy edge, so with the suggested changes I would stop playing on poker stars. No problem I am currently playing around 70% on Party anyway.

Some issues with tool control:
Firstly restricting tool usage means that serious players that are prepared to circumvent the restrictions using multiple computers and carefully selected tools have a big advantage over casual players. Considering that such players are amongst the ones playing the most tables, even with the changes there will still be such T&C abusers at most tables. Since I stopped playing professionally I don't bother with most of this optimising stuff, so I would consider these changes leaving myself at a disadvantage. Why penalize the honest guys that don't or can't be bothered with this stuff?

My understanding from Chess and Go is that Hand histories are not copyrightable. So there is nothing illegal with buying large numbers of hand histories to build up a large database to store on a sever somewhere. Or running running poker tools in general. So if you make regulations that you cannot enforce and are not in any other way wrong – well...

The honest players are the ones who loose out.

I don't use hand history subscriptions any more, so I only play cash games on sites that do not support hand history tracking in any sort of parsable format – which cuts out Poker Stars. If you are serious about stopping people using large databases of hand histories to gain an advantage then its best to stop that at the data collection point. However no parsable hand histories will mean players will have difficulties keeping personal records. filling their tax returns and the like; so less customers using the site overall.

Restrictions that can not be enforced are counter predictive. And seriously PokerStove and FlopZilla? surely anyone who wants to use these has a laptop or tablet or suchlike on the side. Anyway anyone using PokerStove, FlopZilla in real time is likely using it as a teaching tool. In fact anyone using tools as quoted is ether using it as a teaching tool or a crutch. Not a problem as I see it.

Besides I can use the poker snowie to put its opening recommendations into a spread sheet, print it out and attach it to my monitor with sticky tape. In fact I have a stack sized based short stack push starting hand table I made about ten years ago that I still have stuck up on the wall. SO is that against the T/C and how is that different from the quoted text. I mean you handle the dynamically changing part by only looking at the part that relates the current conditions – so what difference if you have a tool with a window that forces you to only look at the bit of the chart/bitmap relevant to the current conditions?

@devera:

listen to punter

Go read my big post a few pages back. Or don't, either way I'm tired of talking to the wall, saying the same thing over and over, with the naive expectation that you will actually follow my point. "There are a lot of trees and branches around, I see no forest"

I'm saying super-specific designed badges kill the spirit of the game through their simple existence, and you're telling me every badge "could" be computed using stats? When that is actually the conceptual definition of a badge - stats combined and filtered to the bone? And you're telling me that anything a badge will expose as a leak is "a click and a search away in my db"? I almost puked. If you put the equal sign between a badge (or 20 badges) exposing your villain's every leak live at the table and you doing some actual work away from the table (which you actually never do), then there's really no point in going further.

The whole idea of HUDs is to give you info, but still let you enjoy playing actual poker, since a real time real life HUD never has that much info that you enter a state of mind in which you could almost communicate with the Russian PLO bots. If it has too much info, you're actually going backwards. There's always that intrinsic balance there, and even the pop-ups can't really ruin it, for the same reason - too much info, however carefully organized, there's simply way to many situations that could occur to pretend someone will be able to instantly spot the right stat in a pop-up. Whereas a badge will do just that - instant gratification with no effort, just a couple of buy-ins invested in a good add-on pack with 1000 badges. And btw, you CAN'T do that nifty trick with VPIPx0 in current HUDs, that is the whole point, and that is what badges do and static HUDs can't do. So don't come saying "I could do this and that with stats and get to that badge", because that is EXACTLY why badges came up - because you can't use today's static HUDs for that.

And no, it's not a technical issue, nor a political one, but a common sense issue, which I'm not gonna repeat for the 100th time, cause I'm sure I've said it too much. And do you want a simple technical solution to all the technical problems you invoke when defending badges and the distinction between them and normal HUDs? Here's an idea for you - no displayable stat should be computed with more than say 3 or 4 AND operations, all of which only cover street actions and positions (no bet sizing, no timing, no flop texture, no nothing). Triple barrel IP in 3bet pots? 3bet & IP & cbet flop & cbet turn & cbet river, all of which have to be true. Fold to xr OOP in srp as pfr? pfr & OOP & cbet flop & fold to flop raise, all true. BALANCE is the key, cause that way it would still force you to do that much talked about "work off the table" and find your villain's leak with that single click in your db. And while offline you can access all the 3000 different stats you want, when analyzing your play and your villain. But no, instead you want your work to be done for you almost completely. Well, if you have your way, I can guarantee you online poker is living it's last breaths. Just wait a little longer, the signs are all over anyway.

@ greg - neh, I tried, and now my head hurts.

Steve
My 2c worth:

(My background: long term winning 100NL Zoom 6-max NLHE reg using HM2+NC)

Your OP:
1. You don't seem to realise how powerful raw HM2/PT4 are as custom stats enable (as far as I understand) everything NC can do. So if you seriously want to ban NC you'd better ban HM2/PT4 too. But serious, don't ban HM2/PT4 or NC as that would be absurd.

2. You don't seem to have any idea of what NC can do as I don't believe it does any more than display basic stats from previous hands (and I have defined and use over 100 NC badges and definitions). It merely displays these stats in a different way than underlying HM2/PT4 and this can make a HUD simpler/cleaner/easier/faster to interpret if you know how to code. But HUDs are very personal things. I love my customised HUDs but others may well hate them.

3. Some people seem to think a joint action like, say an "ISO" badge that indicates a player will call a pre-flop raise and then overfold to a flop bet is too advanced and should be banned. I disagree. IMO it just simplifies my HUD because the two stats are readily in HM2. Secondly, the "ISO" badge is NOT a license to print money by raising and betting because (Duh) the onus is on the player to properly interpret the stat (eg is my sample large enough for this to be reliable?, Is my sample too large and misleading about how player is currently playing? Will this player act this way vsHero?, Is Villain in a table seat/position where he might be trapping? Is this player re-adapting vsHero? Have I picked on this guy too much recently?) Players who mindlessly react to badges will lose money!

4. I think it is a total waste of time to post these questions on 2plus2. I only visited here and posted because of the email from NC. I would never have known of your post otherwise, IMO very few serious regs waste their time on 2plus2. You would be better off posting on the various training/coaching sites or directly emailing selected players with a survey as serious feedback is much more likely. These days, 2plus2 is full of useless, time-wasting trolls.

5. IMO the posters in this thread wanting NC banned are simply too lazy to work on their game. I am confident I will crush them with or without a HUD because I will outwork anyone until I do. This is not a brag as IMO I have very little natural talent for poker but my work ethic is second to none and in my experience work ethic destroys the "natural" but lazy player long term, especially if you at PS change the game conditions by for example banning HUDs. Just as regular game players complain about not being winners at Zoom. Or pre-Black Friday winners that are now losers. The real reason is they are lazy and are not willing to constantly outwork their opponents as game conditions constantly change. Constant change is part of poker! Adapt or lose!

6. Why are you not acting to kill the cartels in HU? I love HU but PS seems blissfully ignorant of sharkstrator's unfair advantage to its licensees. These types of tools effectively share knowledge of who is a reg to avoid and maximise seating against recreational players, information unavailable from the player's own play and therefore a clear violation of T&Cs and yet due to PS ignorance they thrive.

7. Why are you not acting to destroy seating scripts in reg games and force auto-seating on everyone? I occasionally play regular games but I am sick of 10+ waiting lists that destroy enjoyment of the game for all. I play Zoom because there is no delay. For a hardworking reg, IMO Zoom has just as much info as regular games to enable exploitation of opponents. It's just that lazy players waste the Zoom info. IMO lazy reg game players should be forced into a Zoom environment or a random seating fixed regular game (ie stay at the same table after folding but you NEVER get to choose what table you sit at or where you sit. Learn to adapt you lazy regs!).

8. I don't play PLO but I am aware of the current PLO bot scandal. Your obviously ignorant OP adds to my fear that PS has no current staff familiar with top level play at NLHE and no ability to detect and prevent bots from exploiting the PS NLHE games.

so when we can expect final decision for prohibited software? will be sad if somebody get banned unexpectedly for using flopzilla (which is in permitted software list at the moment)