See King Aceholes post.

That's clearly not gonna happen so that's not really the point, I think everyone here understands that (regardless of their position towards huds, 3rd party software etc).

What needs to be done is find a balance between "human based" live poker logic, work and computations and software assisted decisions (at the table). That's why I think a pure "static" hud is completely fair, since ANYONE can learn to use one to help make decisions, regardless of its size (some have it small, others have it big, simply because they worked harder than the rest). The difference between a small hud and a big one is almost precisely correlated with the amount of work you put it, hence it is absolutely fair.

However, villain-tailored systems like the much discussed badges have no real human based work, except for the if-then statement you define in whatever interface you define it (and sometimes you don't even have to define s.hit, since it's pre-programmed for your total convenience). In this case poker is no longer a competition for human logic, interpretation and deduction, but a race towards who has the best computer assistance in order to spot in an instant how you can own an opponent. And, as much as I despise the badge system now, I am absolutely convinced we have even uglier systems lurking right around the corner. I just hope there's enough reason and lack of emotion to realize that before it's really too late.

I don't know what to say if you don't think its advantageous to have detailed data, compiled and displayed, on all the past actions of every opponent at the table, based on the current session and all prior sessions (and, if the player makes a bit of effort, also based on games he didn't even play with you). Of course it doesn't replace skill entirely but a reasonably informed player with a HUD is at a clear advantage to one without.

Eh? Multitabling is a routine chess club event, the invited guest star takes on many players, walking the tables as the rest of us plebs sit. The only grand masters I have ever played (even beating a couple, back in the day) was when they had multiple opponents and they took pity on the geeky kid in the nearly all adult club.

Exactly, why are people so afraid off tables for rec`s and other WHO prefer to play poker and not want to be a semibot ?

If Stars make tables who are anonymous and therefore HUD free along with a lobby for HUD users, I bet that all regs slow and surely switches to the HUD free tables bc thats were the recs is (me included).

The problem for 16 tbl nit regs is ofc that they would be forced to play poker with their brain and not their 314 programs, cya at the felt Guys

i can say the same thing about boots in soccer. so should we prohibit this kind of footware?

im against mining, bots, seating scripts. but huds itself aren't making that difference. a lot of regulars cant beat small stakes with huds even with insane table selection.

because HUDs are outclassed by (semi) bots nowadays?

All these massive software provide too much of a shortcut that now pro poker players are to lazy to go without because if gone reduces their win rates to much. Get rid of everything, leave huds and do all the work yourself like translating and inputting your own notes.

Just so you all know, the software isnt available to everyone, how about the people in 3rd world countries. How would you like it if you had to pay one months salary just for one piece of software with a couple more to go to even be bare minimum on an more equal playing field.

..because a HUD alone is more or less useless nowadays and you need additional software on top of it? like static-tables-in-a-computer(R) that are generated with HUDs (well) as one piece in the toolchain?

Now I'm not sure whether or not you believe HUDs give an advantage.

The fact that some regs can't beat small stakes even with HUDs doesn't show HUDs don't help the user. I assume they would lose even more if they didn't use them. Reg /= good player.

Boots in soccer is a very poor analogy since all players have to wear them. I can't think of a (legal) situation in any other competitive game that is directly comparable to HUDs, probably because no other game condones such a blatant structural imbalance between players.

have you even read skier's posts, describing his software which started all of this? nothing in your VM/OS proposal prevents that type of software.

all the pro NC broken english first posts are pretty amusing but its not helping your cause

obviously if so many ppl are so scared they can no longer win at poker bc they are going to lose NC then whatever it does is way to powerful

ive never used NC before but if for whatever reason it doesnt become banned i will buy it immediately as im sure many other ppl reading this thread will also do...

bye bye NC

I do not believe that voice actuated advice tables are the most significant threat. They are creative, and they have been very significant in re-starting this discussion of assistance programs and automation.

in your opinion, what is the most significant threat? bots?

verything that takes one step closer to being a bot is. imo give them their TV time. give them more than they can handle.

I'm against all HUDs, but just to address the NC users who were "begged" to come itt to support it:

http://www.holdemmanager.com/buy/231...mium---hold-em
http://www.holdemmanager.com/buy/231...mium---hold-em

I don't know how anybody can argue that this doesn't provide a material advantage over opponents. As well as making advanced notes it identifies opponent-specific sizing and timing tells, identifies opponent-specific ranges, displays badges in specific game situations and correlates hand-strength with particular tendencies. Some of the advertised features (direct quotes):

NoteCaddy reads hand histories, understands what happens, and takes notes on behaviors that are significant.

NoteCaddy is fully programmable and the different combinations of notes that can be taken are in the billions.

Beyond just taking notes on single instances, NoteCaddy can identify patterns and frequencies that will help you understand the way your enemies play.

over 174 automated note types plus the ability to create custom notes.

Automated notes of important tendencies and graphs to indicate the hand strength for that specific tendency

quickly see if your opponent has bet sizing tells.

Exploit opponents via badges: Powerful Badges appear when an exploitable situation unfolds, choose from default badges or create your own

Hover over a note to see the hand distribution breakdown to help form the opponents likely range

quickly see if people have timing tells with strong hands

Is there a way a poker site could modify their SW to prevent HUDS and other third party SW from reading the pot size and hole cards etc. to prevent these tools from even working?

If so, is there a reason they don't do it?

Does PS get a kickback from the tool developers, like a percentage of sales?

just sent this via PM to PSSteve, hope i´ll get here or via PM an statement

no

i can't speak for every tool, but its 99.9% no

It's true (I played GM Bronstein like that and didn't win) but that isn't how a typical chess tournament works.

Earlier on it was mentioned that coaches can shout instructions to their players in football. In tennis, which is an individual sport like poker and more analogous, coaches are not allowed to instruct players mid-match.

Probably Le Mans where some drivers are allowed 850 kg cars while other drivers have 1245 kg cars would be close. Presumably some people ITT think that if every car was subject to the same technical specifications then it would take the skill out of it.

This is my attitude. I would describe myself as a serious recreational or something like that in between rec and reg (I probably post here more than play because my job gives me lots of these little five minute breaks).

At the moment I am not playing at all online because I am busy working on my charts. Obviously full-timers can do more work than I can, and it makes sense for them ton buy better charts and software than my home-made ones and my newly installed FPDB free HUD, but I won't play till I at least have partially closed that gap by finishing my own charts.

I'm willing to stop raking in order to spend that time but I think a lot of people who want to have fun and just play won't do it. They are willing to play -EV but they won't play without a level playing field. They didn't know about HUDs before but now people are streaming on Twitch this will become known about.

First of all, thanks for calling me a ******. Nice to meet you.

On Pokerstars there is a fish at almost every table. There are 2 fish at a TON of tables. There are 3 fish at a LOT of tables. There are 4-5 fish at some tables. The other seats are filled mostly by terrible regs. Good winning regs are few and far between. There is also a LOT of terrible whales who play 80-100 VPIP or just open shove and a TON of huge whales paying 50+ VPIP.

There is 250,000+ people online at peak hours. There is 100+ tables per limit. If you are not capable of finding a soft table and if you think among 250,000 players and a 1,000 tables you cant find more fish than on some small site, then you, impolite uncivilised ass/hole, are ******ed. I am probably too, for getting involved here talking to angry damaged people incapable of having a civilised argument based discussion, instead of communicating directly with Pokerstars. If your other thousands of posts are in this manner, you must live a sad life. And don't be a crybaby now, you can't insult someone for no reason and not expect to be called on it.

So you are worried about NL200+ games? It's not HUD that ****ed up the games, it's Zoom. With no Zoom there could be 200+ tables per limit and you could choose the table you want to play at. And if you couldn't find a bad player to play with then, then what can I say - there is no hope for you.

ISO badge uses 2 stats? Using that logic, a simple stat like turn cbet in HEM uses 3 stats: RFI/ISO, flop cbet and turn cbet. What is killing you is not irony, it's more likely a brain tumor. If you actually had the balls to insult people face to face then being an ass/hole would probably kill you. I'm so done with this thread. Stars asks about slightly changing the rules on software and people think that's an invitation for them to pollute the discussion with the lets ban HUDs propaganda. GTFO.

If banning HUDs will ever make sense, trust me, they will not care about your opinion, and arguments based on reason and proof will be presented so no one smart will be against it. I already said, I would agree with a HUD ban this exact moment if someone presented a list of valid arguments that are not based on science fiction. With all the claims of better games with no HUDs and better bottom line for both the players AND Pokerstars with no evidence, you would be better off on an anti vaccination movement forum.

No, not skill, it would take the fun out of it and destroy the essence of the competition. It's not only about being a better driver, it's also about having a better car. Take Formula 1 as an example. Used to be fun before all the rules. Now? You can watch it as a substitute for Xanax.

>>understands, takes notes, programmable, combinations ..in the billions, can identify patterns, automated, ..

sounds static to me. like a rock that never moved and never will. dead with no signs live whatsoever. a reverse parrot sketch.

directly: no idea
indirectly: definitely yes

microsoft for example based huge part of their business model on 3rd party developers developers developers developers.

Taking a sales page as an anti software argument is genius.